2019: No Mediums Please

[CMDR Corlas]

Ask the FSS zealots.

How would that lock out anyone from anything ? Noone is restricted from buying small ships. Well, aside from the Cobra IV.

Based on these non-answers, I am forced to assume that people don't really have a good answer to what I asked.

I'm not really opposed to small ship only content, to be clear. But I do think that it's a kind of lazy way of forcing a niche from the outside. It's basically the worst kind of game design.

 

[moorison]

Based on these non-answers, I am forced to assume that people don't really have a good answer to what I asked.

I'm not really opposed to small ship only content, to be clear. But I do think that it's a kind of lazy way of forcing a niche from the outside. It's basically the worst kind of game design.

I would say that many players would switch to a medium ship as soon as possible, there are not really downsides (outpost access, huge weapons, mostly reasonable manoeuvrability and speed, usually more endurable than paper planes) and they would therefore skip some ships thanks to the rising mission payouts.

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

Based on these non-answers, I am forced to assume that people don't really have a good answer to what I asked.

I'm not really opposed to small ship only content, to be clear. But I do think that it's a kind of lazy way of forcing a niche from the outside. It's basically the worst kind of game design.

I would say that many players would switch to a medium ship as soon as possible, there are not really downsides (outpost access, huge weapons, mostly reasonable manoeuvrability and speed, usually more endurable than paper planes) and they would therefore skip some ships thanks to the rising mission payouts.

There already is a restriction for large ships, being locked out from outposts. Still doesn't prevent players to get a medium ship for that. Small ship only content would keep small ships relevant even after players have gone up to mediums. There's very very little in the game right now that a small ship can do better than a medium, most of them are just stepping stones and obsolete once you get to the mediums.

 

[CMDR Corlas]

I would say that many players would switch to a medium ship as soon as possible, there are not really downsides (outpost access, huge weapons, mostly reasonable manoeuvrability and speed, usually more endurable than paper planes) and they would therefore skip some ships thanks to the rising mission payouts.

I suppose, but is "skipping ships" really a bad thing? When money still mattered for me, I skipped plenty of ships, but I don't think my experience was diminished for that. Being unable to optionally "skip" a ship would have felt way more restricted.

I do think small ships should have dramatically better agility than they currently do, and they should have significantly more efficient thermals than ships that need larger power plants - it makes sense that a smaller-capacity power plant can be designed to be more thermally efficient. I think utility slots should be revisited, as a lot of small ships deserve more than they currently have.

Those changes alone could do a lot to give small ships areas in which they excel, especially if gameplay around stealth mechanics - smuggling, sneaking data off or on to megaships and installations, that sort of thing - is enhanced.

That sort of change takes the current small/medium ship imbalance - a small ship can do it, but a medium ship is better - and flips it around the other way. To me, that's automatically more interesting than an arbitrary restriction, purely to make content for the purpose of excluding certain ships.

 

[CMDR Corlas]

There already is a restriction for large ships, being locked out from outposts.

I think that's bad design too. I typically fly medium ships, purely for asthetic reasons. I like my CMDR's ship to feel like a home for him, and most small ships just "feel" too small to me, and most large ships too large. It's strictly an issue of perception. I have, and love, small ships, but they just aren't "home".

I do think large ships should have ways to interact with outposts, for the same reasons why I think small-only, or medium-only, content is bad.

Small ships need a solid niche beyond "starter content", I'm sure we agree there. I just think we can come up with better, more organic to the game world, and more fun ideas than "small ships only because I said so".

 

[moorison]

I suppose, but is "skipping ships" really a bad thing? When money still mattered for me, I skipped plenty of ships, but I don't think my experience was diminished for that. Being unable to optionally "skip" a ship would have felt way more restricted.

I do think small ships should have dramatically better agility than they currently do, and they should have significantly more efficient thermals than ships that need larger power plants - it makes sense that a smaller-capacity power plant can be designed to be more thermally efficient. I think utility slots should be revisited, as a lot of small ships deserve more than they currently have.

Those changes alone could do a lot to give small ships areas in which they excel, especially if gameplay around stealth mechanics - smuggling, sneaking data off or on to megaships and installations, that sort of thing - is enhanced.

That sort of change takes the current small/medium ship imbalance - a small ship can do it, but a medium ship is better - and flips it around the other way. To me, that's automatically more interesting than arbitrary restriction, purely to make content for the purpose of excluding certain ships.

Sure that makes sense. Although heat starts to become a problem with lasers (or railguns) equipped, most of the projectile weapons are rather cold.

Speaking of restrictions, there is already a big class of restricted missions: anything requiring SRVs, mining missions, or previous large quantity trade missions. the difference is obviously that any ship can be equipped with the modules required, small ships need to compromise more than others. If they should decide to create missions that only work with SLF, that could be considered a compromise - with the caveat that small ships cannot equip SLF. So missions that SLF or small ships can do?
SLFs should have at least a scanner on board in my opinion.

 

[moorison]

I do think large ships should have ways to interact with outposts, for the same reasons why I think small-only, or medium-only, content is bad.

A lot of people like the idea of a personal shuttle for docking with outposts, which would allow access to the mission board and data delivery but not dumping all cargo at once which would make interactions possible, but not efficient.

 

[CMDR Corlas]

Yeah, smalls are too restricted on internals for sure. Any 4 slot ship needs a re-look, imo.

I really like the design concept beind the new mining system, and how it could relate to small ships (aside from the hardpoint bloat that it brings): Having a big distro to support multiple mining lasers doesn't matter, having vast internals to support armies of collector limpets doesn't matter, agility is a strength, the cargo is very valuable, diminishing the value of a giant hold... There's a lot there that's small ship friendly. It's a very good design, at the root of it.

 

[Kathos]

I agree that there are plenty of medium combat ships now, and no further ships of that size are needed. However there is still no purpose-built medium trading vessel that out-hauls the multipurpose Python. It is downright silly that I use my haulage python more for trading than any actual tanker vessel. The type 6 is too small and too useful early on to shift to this role, but the type 7 would be ideal if it was moved to medium pads.

 

[Screemonster]

If ships had different performance in supercruise besides their turn rates, small ships could maybe find a niche if low mass meant the ship was slowed down less by gravity wells and less prone to overshooting compared to a big ship. Especially in wings, where you could field a small ship as an interceptor and have the big guns drop on their wake.

 

[Sterling MH]

If ships had different performance in supercruise besides their turn rates, small ships could maybe find a niche if low mass meant the ship was slowed down less by gravity wells and less prone to overshooting compared to a big ship. Especially in wings, where you could field a small ship as an interceptor and have the big guns drop on their wake.

If small ships could change SC velocity faster then they could traverse quicker and catch up with larger ships, or beat them to a joint destination. Either helps with playing in a ship.

If size differential changed how quickly the escape vector could move (no idea if this is at all possible), then those in ships bigger than the one they're attempting to pull out of SC could find it easier to win interdiction, yet once in real space the smaller ship would find it easier to extend away, making wing interdictions with a variety of ships optimal and going in gangbusters with FDLs or Corvettes suboptimal, then there's another reason to play one size of ship over another.

 

[CMDR Corlas]

Those are both awesome ideas and really make sense given the physics that have already been established.

 

[Daynen]

There's one thing that can make small ships instantly relevant that ED sorely lacks: Terrain.

Think about it: 80% of content happens...where? Out in the black. Open space. Maybe in an asteroid field on occasion, but that's still wide open enough that the fattest craft don't notice the rocks. There's nowhere for small ships to go (besides outposts) that bigger ships can't. There are no missions, scenarios or situations where a small ship is strictly a better idea by virtue of it being smaller. There are no mechanics which inherently favor small ships in a way that larger vessels can't easily circumvent. There are no real natural limits on a large ship's activity that make it restrictive like the cumbersome beast it's supposed to be by comparison. There are so many ways to leapfrog through your credit balance to grab a massive ship in such a short time that you don't even have to really learn to fly your small one before you're ready to grab your first anaconda.

There's just no CALL for small ships and that's the source of the problem. Once we can fly through smaller gaps in asteroids or navigate subterranean passages or hide among the geysers so our heat signature is less noticeable or participate in some official race courses with tight turns or SOMETHING that demands small, nimble craft, then small ships are stuck as "starter ships" for most players and that makes me sad because I want to see more small ships too. Where's my Cobra MKV, damnit?!

 

[DukeIronHand]

To the OP:
Small sized ships are "dead". Medium sized ships are the new "small".

This is the most on-point comment (okay, one of a couple) made here in months.
Small ships are dead, gameplay-wise, serving no purpose other then a personal “fun factor” or “odd” preference.
And, as a ship junky and Cobra fan, this is a shame. Why there are not, in the big wide galaxy, small pad only locations is beyond me.

EDIT: Didnt read whole thread so I am sure I am not saying anything new.
Stopped after reading the above post as, until FDev does something, it pretty much sums it up.