A Game At Odds with Itself and Why

[Jex =TE=]

I agree. Look at a game like WoW. I've played that for more than 10 years, still do. However, the stop-start nature of the end-game that becomes irrelevant with the next expansion is jarring and tiresome. WoW might change that in the next expansion (sic) by introducing scaling similar to what has been done in games like Guild Wars 2.

ED is not about that, and the developer appears unlikely to fall into that trap. Instead we have a game that is expanding laterally, first by introducing Powerplay, CQC/Arena, Horizons, and soon Engineers, revamped missions and crafting. These will expand on existing elements rather than adding another tier that will be irrelevant in a few months time.

Of course there will be issues where a player feels he/she has done it all, flying the biggest and baddest ship there is and feeling there is no challenge left they can be bothered with. The MMORPG model suffers from that too; when we have downed the final raid boss, all we can do is rinse and repeat, maybe on more difficult levels or even *shudder* go for achievements. Eventually it is time to put the game aside and wait for the next patch/expansion providing more entertainment.

Thankfully, it doesn't appear that ED will head in that direction, although there are challenges meant for groups. If you tire of the game, play something else for a while. I assume you do the same with the MMORPGs.

S

Aren't they the same type of game?

I recently got the Black Desert Beta which I liked a lot. Never really played an MMO before so it's all fairly new to me though the game play mechanics are the same as any other games you play.

So when I started killing monsters in a field it was exactly the same as killing ships in a CZ.

If I want, I can buy goods at X and transport them to Y and I can even increase my "cargo hold" by purchasing bigger "ships" (horses or carts).

I've passed places that require a pick axe so presumably I can mine too.

So once I have bought the best ship (horse) with the best armour (plate-mail) and installed the best modules (skills and abilities) I can do that all again by buying a new ship (creating a new character class).

ED seems to be to follow exactly what an MMO does - what's the difference.

 

[Bostlabs]

I'll take your congratulations as a compliment. Thank you.

I didn't avoid the question. Just look at the workings of the game. If the game is going one direction, change yours. If you want details, let's say take powerplay for an example. If I like one power over another and that other power has a bad system that's getting close to fortified or prepared, I'll join the enemy power and push that system. If I see a combat zone that's stagnant that might have a faction that I like better than the other, I join and fight for that faction. Or I might find one that I don't like and fight against it.

I've smuggled illicit goods and made a lot of money. I've done PVP and got bored. Sure, there are those that like it and I leave it to them. I play what I want to play and make a shipload of credits doing it.

I hope that clear it up.

And to come clean, I actually haven't spent a dime on this game. I was given a Steam gift by my uncle a while back. He then gave me another account that came from directly the Frontier store. I'm not rich, you see. My uncle, however, is pretty well off and he plays the game with me. That makes it even more fun than if I just did this on my own.

Can't rep you again in such a short time so consider yourself +1 rep, sir.

 

[Marcus Tullius]

The easiest way to ensure infinite gameplay is to allow players to make it. That’s why the MMO games are so popular and addicting. But in order to become fully operational MMO, any game must encourage cooperation between players. Unfortunately, ED suffers by someone bad marketing decision. This season pass sale scheme requires separation between season owners, that’s why we will never have player to player trade, modules and credits transfer, clan warehouses, and etc. features, that allow players to work together. Moreover, any vital gameplay feature will be attached to one of the seasons (crafting – season 2, player bases – season x, NPC crews – season xx etc.) and this additionally slows down the game development process. In fact we will have full game in 5 up to 7 years after relies. Actually, FDevs are trying to sale us a car: first year – the chassis; second – the engine; third – the tires… May be someday we will have a car, which can be driven. Until this day, we will have car parts only.:S

 

[Spacemarkl]

Actually, FDevs are trying to sale us a car: first year – the chassis; second – the engine; third – the tires… May be someday we will have a car, which can be driven. Until this day, we will have car parts only.:S

If you have to use that allegory, then it is more like: first year they sell us a small car with one seat with which you can some basic driving, the next year two seats and a bigger engine, third year a larger chassis and more elaborate controls and so one...

 

[EUS]

People's expectations run too high.
I bought this game over a year ago, without following the KS, or betas, and all the drama that goes with those.
I bought it with the sole expectations that it was as a game that had HOTAS support, you flew a spaceship, and you could play 'single player' if you wanted.
I haven't bought Horizons, probably never will.
I have yet to be been disappointed.

 

[Ignition]

I dont know why we dance around the obvious, eventually the game gets boring. When you have most of the ships, and money, and have completed all of the tasks ad nauseum - yea its boring, and i struggle to play it right now if i am honest. I still like the game but it doesnt draw me in like it used to.

If I remember correctly I have around 6 millions, 1 cobra, 1 vulture and 1 T6 since the the release of the game in 2014. So I'm not the richest man as you see. I realise the game was short when I saw the poor gameplay implemented.

The game lacks an end game really, which most mmos have. End games are infamous for being boring as well, but they serve a purpose. If you dont have a range of interesting things to challenge you, to advance you and to keep you interested then it does get flat. I'm not suggesting it must have an end game, but without one its going to cycle through players endlessly. Frontier need to realise that the base game + the latest expansion ( without significant new content ) wont be enough for a lot of players. By new content i dont mean landing on planets, that is recycled content and some additional seemingly pointless driving around.

Its not about end-game, in fact its about the early game.
But yes you're right about the recycle gameplay. The thing is the gameplay is not complex enough to have variations and actual gameplay instead of the same repetitions which are very basic and don't have a good gameplay design.

Ill keep playing because i love the idea of the game. I do fear for it though, in some respects im not completely sure FD know what they are doing. But i hope they get it right.

I've played because of the same, the idea of the DDA was amazing and the game was something "new" but it got very old very fast. Its like playing a game from 1980 with mmo windows like Powerplay.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

This thread is still going round in circles based on the fact that because people don't LIKE content it means it doesn't exist which is obviously wrong

The quality matters. You can make a game with 1000 things to do but 990 could repeat themself behind different windows and quests and be very simple so you did it once and you did it forever.

This is what most people don't understand.

 

[body count]

well numbers sure are dropping. I can notice it camping Tau Centauri. 2 months back I had at least 2x as many people jumping in here and ending dead

 

[CMDR Byr Goefin]

I think, to sum it all up, that Frontier's grasp has exceeded it's reach.

So much promise, but not enough execution.

 

[Infidel Deity]

Are you serious? Buzz off.

I am.
But why do I wanna "buzz off", when the entertainment just turned out to be YOU!

 

[Colonel Kenney]

No secret: Elite is a game at odd with itself. Or rather, the game as it exists, is at odds with the one Mr. Braben clearly wants to make.

Consider Mr. Braben's recent PCGamer interview. He talked about how there are tons of things to do in Elite. There aren't, of course; Mr. Braben commonly mistakes "doing the same thing lots of times" with "having lots to do" and it's a very revealing and very problematic paradigm. As long as Mr Braben believes Elite has lots to do, it never will, since he will not believe that adding more to do is needed. In terms of the robust game with ample player activities Mr. Braben imagines he has already created, the bare bones, three-pronged combat/trade/beep-scanning (I refuse to call that "Exploration" any longer) is a game at odds with what it's creator wishes it to become.

Likewise, Mr. Braben indicates that players do not travel enough. In fact he nearly goes so far as to blame players for not finding all of the things that (he mostly imagines) his game holds for them. The problem: Mr. Braben's game, as it actually exists, entices players not to explore the bubble but to stay put and make friends with one or two local factions. This rep gain is, after all, the only way to receive better missions and larger profits. Mr. Braben wants us to explore his Galaxy, but his game punishes us for doing so.

Mr. Braben talks about the lonely, lone-pilot-against-the-galaxy feeling he wants Elite to embody. Then he created an online, multiplayer game with frequent Community Goals. He imagines an online community that does not exist, full of loners who will never want to group up or band together, content to play together but in isolation. Give players an open, living universe and they will want the means to group up and exert influence. This is simple human nature.

Elite's biggest problem is that the creator behind the game believes himself to be making - and indeed, to mostly already have made - the ultimate Han Solo simulator. A lone pilot and their ship, free to roam about a living Galaxy full of enjoyable, varied and profitable yet risky tasks to undertake. In fact this neither describes Elite as it exists nor even it's underlying design philosophy, if the current game is any indication. For the game Braben and company are actually making is a repetitive space grind with three lackluster activities, all of them equally pointless after a short time, that actively encourages people NOT to explore their (not so living or dynamic) universe, but to pick a spot and stay there, all the while wishing the always online, multiplayer REQUIREMENT actually served some functional purpose beyond frustrating Europe on Sunday evenings.

Elite is a game at odds with what it wants to be. Elite's foundation is a bedrock frought with cracks and fractures, from bugs to game play decisions that actively contradict it's creator's vision. The need to keep people grinding rep contradicts the wish to have them explore. The need for MP balance contradicts the desire for unique customization and play style changes to ships. The fear that some may shortcut the grind contradicts the desire of players to trade and run lasting economies, which ability to group up and attempt itself contradicts the loner in a harsh Galaxy vision underlining Elite to begin with.

Mr. Braben needs to remove the Rose tinted glasses of his imagination and tune into his game as it exists. People are losing interest, and worse, beginning to question whether this is even the game they were promised, or ever will be. Some of the reasons for this doubt are listed above, in case Frontier are listening at all.

This sums up my opinion on your post.

 

[Jex =TE=]

Which...they have even admitted and are working on, 2.1 will hopefully fix a lot of it....but I'm fairly sure people will end up unhappy anyway or find something else to be upset about.

Heck by your words, a lot of other games are of similar nature, heck most all games.
And a lot of people seem to think creating something like this is easy or done in one swoop? seriously...it is amazing to me that people can think that, when a lot of the games used as example are at best a tiny slice compared to the scope that they are trying to create with Elite..and no, it isn't done yet, they've been exceedingly clear on that since the start what the development model is like.

They said there would be a major update to missions with 1.3 and it didn't happen. We're not talking about the future game are we? We're talking about the game as it stands right now.

Maybe you forgot the other games in the franchise that were made decades before Elite Dangerous? FE2 - did you ever hear of that and how much better it is today than ED is? Other game developers manage to make their games fun so stop making excuses for FD. They're stuck in the past and need to take their head out the sand and get with the times.

Yeah it isn't done yet - you're falling for that old one are you. Then can you tell me how we're in season 2 already and the USS placeholders are still in season one that I bought?

 

[Thaliesin]

Well, hearing Mr. Braben saying this game is full of content is... disappointing, to say the least. Doing the same thing over and over again is hardly "content".

Now, this game is far from being trash: the simulation is well executed and fun, community managers are doing what they can to give us reasons to play with what they have, but... don't shoot the child who yells "the emperor is naked", please. It won't help.

 

[xondk]

If you have to use that allegory, then it is more like: first year they sell us a small car with one seat with which you can some basic driving, the next year two seats and a bigger engine, third year a larger chassis and more elaborate controls and so one...

Regardless of what you use as examples, one thing doesn't cease to amaze me, they were _VERY_ clear on all these things, seasons, steady development cycle, and everything, much much more then any other game company i've seen so far, yet somehow people still get upset, are bugs annoying, yes of course, but they 'are' working on it.

 

[Infidel Deity]

What is needed is warpdrive, not jump drives (or jump drives with range limited only your fuel capacity but obviously take a lot longer). You need things to do whilst your traveling though which is why you need to be able to walk around your ship and do stuff in it. Then you need stuff like anomalies and things happening outside the ship.

Instead what we get is 50 loading screens that are incredibly time wasting and boring. I'd much rather set a course and just have the hyperspace screen for 5 minutes and go and do something like repairs back in the engine room.

This I like!
Very good thinking!

 

[Armour]

i do seriously ask myself if in 20 years time people will even be talking about ED anymore let alone playing it (assuming the required server issues etc) as they do with the original three previous games?

What? They can't stop talking about it, even if it is to complain! They've been at it for over a year thus far, and the "why this game sucks" posts show no signs of dying out.

 

[Kristov]

Reading comprehension is your friend. I asked what PART of the game he finds without fault, not the entire game. You are trolling at this point and you aren't very good at it. Do me a favor, untie your hands and then use them to slap some sense into yourself. Thanks.

You asked what was perfect about the game, you were told by multiple people that nothing is, but we enjoy it. Then you claim the game is broken, which is clearly false, the game not being what YOU want it to be doesn't make it broken, it makes your choices incorrect in that you choose to play the wrong game for what you want to do.

I pick up WoW and start to complain that I can't fly a spaceship or shoot lasers, who's going to take me seriously? Oddly enough, there are a number of people who'l agree with me and tell me I'm right and that WoW is broken and NEEDS spaceships and laser to be playable. Nevermind that WoW has been around for a decade and is doing what it was designed to do, SOME people think it should be something else all together or it's broken. You are one of those people, Elite Dangerous isn't perfect, none of us said it was, we even pointed out things we'd personally like to see fixed and/or changed, but you want ANOTHER game all together, so unless they totally redo the game, it will always be broken to you. And I'll lay odds that even if they redid the game to fix exactly what you demand, it would still be broken in your eyes.

Aren't they the same type of game?

I recently got the Black Desert Beta which I liked a lot. Never really played an MMO before so it's all fairly new to me though the game play mechanics are the same as any other games you play.

So when I started killing monsters in a field it was exactly the same as killing ships in a CZ.

If I want, I can buy goods at X and transport them to Y and I can even increase my "cargo hold" by purchasing bigger "ships" (horses or carts).

I've passed places that require a pick axe so presumably I can mine too.

So once I have bought the best ship (horse) with the best armour (plate-mail) and installed the best modules (skills and abilities) I can do that all again by buying a new ship (creating a new character class).

ED seems to be to follow exactly what an MMO does - what's the difference.

Actually, a typical MMO and Elite have only 2 things in common really. They are online games and there are lots of people all playing in the same persistent game world.

Beyond that, nothing alike, which if you'd actually played any MMOs, you'd realize rather quickly. I can start over today in Elite Dangerous and have a buddy give me enough cargo to buy an Anaconda in a few hours, and I can use that Anaconda that quickly. There's no areas I can't go to due to my level or time ingame, there's no equipment I can't access due to my level, and there's nothing I can't do because of my level. The ranks we have in Elite Dangerous really don't equate to levels in almost every other MMO out there(and most single player games as well), as they don't serve the same functions at all, they simply limit the types of missions we get or access to very specific toys, which can be removed at any time by FD for whatever reasons(see all the people who've gotten Clippers without having any Imperial ranks). I can't get the top raid gear in WoW without actually getting high enough level to do the raids and if I get it and I'm below the level, I can't use it. What do we have in Elite that you can get but can't use?

No, Elite is an MMO in definition only, massive multiplayer online, that's it. Otherwise, it's nothing like the standard MMOs out there. And that's without touching on the fact that those standard MMOs all have exactly X amount of content and that's it until more gets added. You do the quests in the storyline, that's it, you're done. There are sometimes side quests you can do but once you've done them, well, you've done them. I've got around a thousand hours in Elite Dangerous currently, and I've not reached the end of the content because there's no fixed handcrafted content for me to run out of. There are always new missions for me to do, they may be repeats of the missions I've done before, varied by who's giving them and why, but they are always there for me to do. I have enough time in Elite to have completed all the storylines in SW:TOR many times over, took me less than 200 hours to complete all of them, and that includes lots of time spent playing Huttball and doing PvP stuff which isn't related to the storylines at all, and me helping my friends do their own storyline quests multiple times. Couple hundred hours, did everything in the game multiple times over, only kept playing THAT long because of my friends there, and once they got done with their storylines, well, we all stopped playing, there's little replay value and no reason to keep playing when you finish the content.

You try some of the standard MMOs, you'll understand soon enough.

 

[Drunk Si]

Let's invent a hypothetical game. For the sake of argument, let's call it 'toe-sphere'. In this game, you can:


Hit the sphere with your toes, or another part of your foot.
Hit the sphere with your head.
Hit another player with your foot, or your head - the game mechanics however impose a penalty for this.
Fall on the ground, pretending that another player has hit you with his foot or head - unfortunately the game mechanics aren't very good at detecting this 'griefing' tactic.
Your 'score' depends only on guiding the sphere through a slot - you 'win' by grinding the sphere through the slot more often than the opposing team.


Boring obviously. Nobody would want to play, and the idea that people would pay to watch it is even more ludicrous...

Toe-Sphere sounds great! Here's the thing, there's a lot of depth to the way those things interact with each other but as I'm no toe-sphere expert let's talk Rocket League, which has the same simple goal and can be broken down into similar simple fundamentals.

In Rocket League you drive a car and try to hit a ball into a goal, standard play consists of teams of 3 and these players all use their cars to try and get the ball into their opponents' goal and stop the opponents doing the same to them. But how you read the movement of your teammates and the opposing team, how you read the bounce of the ball, whether you take a small touch and retain control but risk losing possession to the bloke belting it towards you or punt it but again risk losing possession depending on placement... whether you can flummox people with careful dribbling control, or popping the ball over their heads, or setting up a pass, that looks like a shot, to lure defenders out of position and give your team mate an easy tap in.... Simple mechanics, all interacting to give you lots and lots of things to do. Lots and lots of depth there, both in tactics (how you read the flow of the game and respond to it and try to control it) and also mechanically with regards to actually pulling off dribbling, aerials, wall hits, shot accuracy, shot power and your general ability to move about without losing momentum.

Elite does not have that sort of depth. Its mechanics do not interact in any sort of way that opens up the game to a whole new level of play.

 

[Jex =TE=]

You asked what was perfect about the game, you were told by multiple people that nothing is, but we enjoy it. Then you claim the game is broken, which is clearly false, the game not being what YOU want it to be doesn't make it broken, it makes your choices incorrect in that you choose to play the wrong game for what you want to do.

I pick up WoW and start to complain that I can't fly a spaceship or shoot lasers, who's going to take me seriously? Oddly enough, there are a number of people who'l agree with me and tell me I'm right and that WoW is broken and NEEDS spaceships and laser to be playable. Nevermind that WoW has been around for a decade and is doing what it was designed to do, SOME people think it should be something else all together or it's broken. You are one of those people, Elite Dangerous isn't perfect, none of us said it was, we even pointed out things we'd personally like to see fixed and/or changed, but you want ANOTHER game all together, so unless they totally redo the game, it will always be broken to you. And I'll lay odds that even if they redid the game to fix exactly what you demand, it would still be broken in your eyes.




Actually, a typical MMO and Elite have only 2 things in common really. They are online games and there are lots of people all playing in the same persistent game world.

Beyond that, nothing alike, which if you'd actually played any MMOs, you'd realize rather quickly. I can start over today in Elite Dangerous and have a buddy give me enough cargo to buy an Anaconda in a few hours, and I can use that Anaconda that quickly. There's no areas I can't go to due to my level or time ingame, there's no equipment I can't access due to my level, and there's nothing I can't do because of my level. The ranks we have in Elite Dangerous really don't equate to levels in almost every other MMO out there(and most single player games as well), as they don't serve the same functions at all, they simply limit the types of missions we get or access to very specific toys, which can be removed at any time by FD for whatever reasons(see all the people who've gotten Clippers without having any Imperial ranks). I can't get the top raid gear in WoW without actually getting high enough level to do the raids and if I get it and I'm below the level, I can't use it. What do we have in Elite that you can get but can't use?

No, Elite is an MMO in definition only, massive multiplayer online, that's it. Otherwise, it's nothing like the standard MMOs out there. And that's without touching on the fact that those standard MMOs all have exactly X amount of content and that's it until more gets added. You do the quests in the storyline, that's it, you're done. There are sometimes side quests you can do but once you've done them, well, you've done them. I've got around a thousand hours in Elite Dangerous currently, and I've not reached the end of the content because there's no fixed handcrafted content for me to run out of. There are always new missions for me to do, they may be repeats of the missions I've done before, varied by who's giving them and why, but they are always there for me to do. I have enough time in Elite to have completed all the storylines in SW:TOR many times over, took me less than 200 hours to complete all of them, and that includes lots of time spent playing Huttball and doing PvP stuff which isn't related to the storylines at all, and me helping my friends do their own storyline quests multiple times. Couple hundred hours, did everything in the game multiple times over, only kept playing THAT long because of my friends there, and once they got done with their storylines, well, we all stopped playing, there's little replay value and no reason to keep playing when you finish the content.

You try some of the standard MMOs, you'll understand soon enough.

Did you not read my post. Killing AI in a CZ is EXACTLY the same as killing AI in a MMO (at least Black Desert). I think my comparisons were pretty spot on.

You however decided to ignore that and read my post as "ED is just like an MMO" when I'm talking about individual parts of it.

BTW ur on my ignore list. It was only because I was logged out then clicked to reply to you that it worked. I won't see your reply to this.

 

[Eldrazzi]

This I like!
Very good thinking!

Well, supercruise IS warp drive. 1000C (ED max) is just about equivalent to Warp Factor 8 in Star Trek. That would mean a little over 1.5 days (real time) to reach Alpha Centauri and over 3.5 days to travel 10LY. Warp Factor 9 would be around 1500C (much faster than FSD's can propel us apparently) and reduce the trip to Alpha Centauri to about a day and a bit less than 2.5 days to travel 10Ly.

I'll agree that the ENTIRE FSD MODEL needs a rework but warp drive isn't the answer.

 

[body count]

In a way it's funny how non immersive the game actually is. I'm hanging in alpha centauri for like 5-6 hours now, killing every commander that drops in. Until someone drops in my speed is at minimum, just waiting with bounty on my head. In 5 hours I was interdicted 2 times by authority. In both cases they wanted to scan me just for illegal cargo. Besides that, nothing. I mean I kill a guy in anaconda and then 5 minutes later police comes and wants to check if I have some illegal cargo, cause you know... that's the thing to worry about and not a poor guy loosing 160mil ship So even if I get a bounty and even if people have that option - report crimes against me on, local police still doesn't really care. Not really immersive. I guess if there was a bank in this game and I was robbing it, they would be asking me if I'm hauling illegal goods too! We certanly can't have that 1t of illegal clothes in the system

it's a comedy. A sad non immersive comedy