A Guide to Minor Factions and the Background Sim

[Gemai]

Well that info and the other table are incorrect, missing states, incorrect % values etc. So what you have seen maybe correct now. And to me, makes sense that selling on a black market would undermine the true market. Killing security would cause a 'Police state', ie Lockdown.

Which was his critique for the old table. It mentions smuggling to impose lockdown, not bust.

Regarding the other discussion:

We managed to make factions gain up to 20% in 30M systems and in those at 10k or less. Wherever you go, however much you do, your maximum gain is roughly 1/5 of the difference from your current influence from your system contribution in the end. That is if the population demand is met. If it is not met, it will be reduced accordingly by the percentual lack of needed actions.

One example of this mechanic being used smart is to end wars in high pop systems. Since your war alone won't fill the population demand, you push some other faction to fill the rest. That way you get full credit for your 20% war effort and maybe the needed 3%. If you only fought all the time, you might get 100% contribution, but without fulfilling the need of the system it gets reduced to maybe 10% at best, making you stagnate.

We managed to do this in several instances and have proven it for ourselves. If people accept that observation is on them.

Also states are not population dependant. They have their own trigger that grows for the entire faction in the background. I had as little trouble booming factions in 20M systems as those in 2k systems. It takes me one or at worst two days to do so. Depending on my own wanton effort. It is not population dependant.

 

[jimbeau1571]

Which was his critique for the old table. It mentions smuggling to impose lockdown, not bust.

And so my point stands, if you know something is incorrect in places why be surprised when it doesn't give you the expected response in an unexpected place.
Why not just say the table is in error in that Black Market/Illegal sales are now causing CivUnrest and not Lockdown.
When he says 'Something is wrong' .... yes, the table.

 

[Gemai]

Why not just say the table is in error in that Black Market/Illegal sales are now causing CivUnrest and not Lockdown.
When he says 'Something is wrong' .... yes, the table.

Bust instead of lockdown, not unrest.

Unrest seems to happen by selling weapons and drugs instead of the expected bust for drugs. That was another discussion.

 

[jimbeau1571]

Bust instead of lockdown, not unrest.

Unrest seems to happen by selling weapons and drugs instead of the expected bust for drugs. That was another discussion.

In fact he says CUnrest and Bust and not the Lockdown as expected. Still. The table is wrong, not the game.

 

[Sentenza]

In fact he says CUnrest and Bust and not the Lockdown as expected. Still. The table is wrong, not the game.

Ok, so in essence you are arguing for the sake of arguing. Fine with me

Back to the point: result still need to be confirmed, but I am thinking that different effects for different goods make sense. Flood the market with slaves: free people lose their jobs to slaves, nobody has money to buy things anymore, market crash, bust. Flood the market with drugs and guns: junkies stealing to buy drugs, gangs of pushers fighting each others, civil unrest. Makes sense.

 

[Gemai]

The previous instance of droned junkies and drunk workers being unable to show up for work or do it properly was fine with me too. But I take what I can get... which in case of unrest is pointless. Bust hurts, unrest is pointless in BGS wars. It helps you actually. It is like boom... on crack and more diversity.

 

[jimbeau1571]

Ok, so in essence you are arguing for the sake of arguing. Fine with me

Back to the point: result still need to be confirmed, but I am thinking that different effects for different goods make sense. Flood the market with slaves: free people lose their jobs to slaves, nobody has money to buy things anymore, market crash, bust. Flood the market with drugs and guns: junkies stealing to buy drugs, gangs of pushers fighting each others, civil unrest. Makes sense.

Not arguing for the sake at all. That is not me. I'm offering alternatives. I could be wrong, have been before. Will be again I'm sure.
Keeping on my KISS rule ... your above over complicates things. Too much code required for all the different commodities. Remember when it was proved about selling stuff t by t. Counters. Its all counters. Nothing really clever.

Maybe selling a certain amount of illegal brings bust. Sell beyond that but before another threshold brings on CivUnrest too. Hit the final threshold and you get the triple wammy. Bust, CivUnrest and Lockdown.

Shoot and kill so many ships (non security), CivUnrest. Shoot beyond that and hit the threshold, you get Lockdown.
Shoot enough Security only, straight to Lockdown.

Makes sense. Much simpler. Easier to code I would guess. Its only counters.

 

[Gemai]

Programming the sales into 5 groups:

Economics = Boom
Drugs/Weapons = Unrest
Waste = Outbreak
Food = Anti-Famine
Medicine = Anti-Outbreak

Isn't hard either. It is the same mechanic, just copied over for a different state effect. Counters. From a programming perspective, that is boring.

 

[SaliVader]

Programming the sales into 5 groups:

Economics = Boom
Drugs/Weapons = Unrest
Waste = Outbreak
Food = Anti-Famine
Medicine = Anti-Outbreak

Isn't hard either. It is the same mechanic, just copied over for a different state effect. Counters. From a programming perspective, that is boring.

You sure waste triggers outbreak?

 

[Aris_]

Well, I wanted to check the match with this:

http://i.imgur.com/Ivuum68.jpg

Smuggling should have pushed lockdown. At this point we can safely assume this table is no longer valid. In fact it also states that smuggling increases influence, but the same test showed a decrease instead, as if it was piracy.

Illegal trading in that picture refers to stolen goods so you may have to try that, selling in the black market is a bust for the real economy cheaper goods with out taxes also illegal emigrants and “unregulated “ slaves cheap labour force black economy.


They have not implemented our real life banking system which takes a cut and actually increases GDP

 

[jimbeau1571]

Programming the sales into 5 groups:

Economics = Boom
Drugs/Weapons = Unrest
Waste = Outbreak
Food = Anti-Famine
Medicine = Anti-Outbreak

Isn't hard either. It is the same mechanic, just copied over for a different state effect. Counters. From a programming perspective, that is boring.

Boring yet quick and easy. And when your building a game but not telling the players how it works, hey boring works.

As for your table above yes in programming terms it works with regards to simple mechanics. In what is observed, I'd say no in most cases.

Economics? Not sure what you mean by that but I assume you mean items on the market (sold for profit) and missions. Yes
Drugs/Weapons .. I say anything illegal, not just drugs weapons. Why? ... different illegals in different systems. One tag captures the illegals in each system for the programmer.
Waste ... Some factions go into Outbreak despite having no market on which to put waste. So Outbreak is not dependent on Waste. That is not to say Waste doesn't induce Outbreak, just there is something else at work.
Food ... Similar to Waste and Outbreak, in that Factions are going into Famine without a market in which to put food, yet those factions with markets yet revieve no food to the market don't go into Famine. Something else at work.
Medicine ... The absolute same as Food, but for Outbreak instead.

And my own

Bust .. Selling none market items (they don't normally appear on the market but do if you have them in your hold), but not illegal for a loss. Selling illegal items on the Black market.

Oh how I wish it were more complicated and a true economy, but the bottom line is that it isn't. It was counters months ago, and it still is. It is just figuring out those counters, and they won't be that much different from 3 months ago.

 

[Gemai]

The list above was based on the shown mission effects during deliveries. Drugs furthered bust during that time. This was before FD hid them again. It was a bug that it showed the info for the delivered party instead.

The list means "sales" so goods you give a station. In that economic goods are all that are used to help the station. Machinery, resources etc. It actually concerns all categories BUT those with adverse effects like "legal" drugs or food.

Selling prohibited goods on the blackmarket causes bust as it drains the economic power of the local populace and circumvents taxes. It makes sense. Stolen or not. The faction suffers.

The list from me was also not an example of the ingame effect, it IS the ingame effect. It is simple and boring.

FD mentioned that outbreak and famine etc. tick up slowly as there is a constant demand for medicine and food... and for economic succes. So if you boom a faction, their outbreak timer gets lowered, as well as the famine. This causes those states to accumulate in neglected sectors of space and for secondary factions.

Nonetheless you can quickly cause Civil Unrest by selling weapons to stations. You can quickly cause boom by delivering useful production goods to them.

Also contrary to your statement that the economy in game is blatant, it has a minor twist. If you bring enough goods to the station, the corresponding production rises. Bring them food and the production of bio waste increases in the long run. Bring them mineral oil and a refinery will increase the fabric production. The economy ingame is not a dead dog, you just have to work it.

 

[SaliVader]

Also contrary to your statement that the economy in game is blatant, it has a minor twist. If you bring enough goods to the station, the corresponding production rises. Bring them food and the production of bio waste increases in the long run. Bring them mineral oil and a refinery will increase the fabric production. The economy ingame is not a dead dog, you just have to work it.

Wow, I had now idea about this. Do you have more info on this stuff? Is there also a way to increase a system's security level?

 

[Limoncello Lizard]

Wow, I had now idea about this. Do you have more info on this stuff? Is there also a way to increase a system's security level?

You can supposedly improve a station/base/port by supplying some of everything it has a demand for and buying some of everything it supplies. I have no idea what effects this has in the long term, or how long it takes to make any improvements. But missions seem to become much more profitable quite quickly - though this also happens when your reputation increases, which is inevitable.

 

[jimbeau1571]

1.The list above was based on the shown mission effects during deliveries. Drugs furthered bust during that time. This was before FD hid them again. It was a bug that it showed the info for the delivered party instead.

2.The list means "sales" so goods you give a station. In that economic goods are all that are used to help the station. Machinery, resources etc. It actually concerns all categories BUT those with adverse effects like "legal" drugs or food.

3.Selling prohibited goods on the blackmarket causes bust as it drains the economic power of the local populace and circumvents taxes. It makes sense. Stolen or not. The faction suffers.

The list from me was also not an example of the ingame effect, it IS the ingame effect. It is simple and boring.

4.FD mentioned that outbreak and famine etc. tick up slowly as there is a constant demand for medicine and food... and for economic succes. So if you boom a faction, their outbreak timer gets lowered, as well as the famine. This causes those states to accumulate in neglected sectors of space and for secondary factions.

5.Nonetheless you can quickly cause Civil Unrest by selling weapons to stations. You can quickly cause boom by delivering useful production goods to them.

6.Also contrary to your statement that the economy in game is blatant, it has a minor twist. If you bring enough goods to the station, the corresponding production rises. Bring them food and the production of bio waste increases in the long run. Bring them mineral oil and a refinery will increase the fabric production. The economy ingame is not a dead dog, you just have to work it.

7.Wow, I had now idea about this. Do you have more info on this stuff? Is there also a way to increase a system's security level?

1. During deliveries, prior to 2.1 ... now no longer shown. Legal drugs? or illegal drugs? Or both? We'll never know now, or maybe we will when it returns in 2.2
2. The market does not care what the goods are as long as you make a profit. The influence gain of the faction is purely on the profit made by you as the individual, and not down to the type of good in regard to its economy type. If it were, agricultural's would be permanently bust when buying all that High Tech stuff in. If its legal, on the commodity market and you make a profit then its toward Boom state. If its legal but doesn't appear on the market unless you have it in your hold, then its toward Bust.
3. Yes. Its illegal, so it undermines economy and security. Its not about economic power and taxes, they don't exist in the game system to system. Its just plain illegal, no more than that.
4. So, any faction that does not enter a state of Boom will enter Famine or Outbreak at some point. Any faction that does not own a market, has no missions performed for it, will enter Famine or outbreak. So if i were to monitor a system on the edge, where nobody used the market or very infrequently, all the factions should enter Famine or Outbreak. So if nothing happens in this system, how does it determine Famine or Outbreak? Nothing is random, so there must be something deciding which? This question has been asked numerous times in this thread, read back 30 pages.
5. Legal Weapons? No one has mentioned it would drive to Unrest before. Yes, selling to market of any profitable goods will force Boom. If I sell 400t of Silver to a Extraction economy I'm not getting the top price, in fact they sell it out so its a lowish price, I will still push them to Boom quickly.
6. Yes partially. If you then leave it long enough (3 days is normally enough) it will return to normal. If not, without FD intervention the CG's would be causing havoc on the systems that have the CG imposed on them. To the point of it should be flipping economy types. It doesn't. There is no in game economy, each system is autonomous and completely independent of the systems around it. And if you think about it, that little change you talk of, if the economy were fluid in any fashion, and linked to those around it, well then it should have a knock on effect on those systems around it. And the largest effect on the smallest populated systems. And when I go trading 400t of Imp Slaves for 5 hours at 1 jump per delivery, it should cause some effect on the system, driving it into Famine. I have just massively increased the pop! Loads of people, no food brought in. Hey guess what, it goes into Boom!!!!! Its a counter, it counts profit.
7. No you can't. It is what is, as set by FD.

 

[Gemai]

There is a lot of mystery about security as FD still denies us indicators like blue and red arrows in the side menue or a concrete number. There is proof that killing pirates lifts the infested beacon state though. Also the spawning security is a good indicator of your actual security. Anacondas only spawn in upper medium systems for the most part. In high systems they can even spawn as wings of Anacondas.

I would like for some group to test the theories revolving around security by bounty hunting a low pop system to heaven for weeks. But I doubt anyone wants to do that.


Regarding Lizard:

There is a certain proof that resources that are not part of a stations production (metals for armor in military stations) do not decay unless they are a needed good like food. So the demand recovers really slowly if at all.
Due to that it was speculated that one can upgrade colonies or finish terraforming by making the full non-reproduceable demand met. As those are huge loads of work - unless one feeds small colony stations - this will take some time.

I have no statistical proof for a permanent increase in a stations MAXIMUM production value, but the level of production regarding the sales is important.

Buying is not...

If you don't buy though and the production in the storage reaches a certain multiplier of the basic production, it will cease to produce new items and stop eating its demand. The demand will stagnate at 0. The Imperial Federation has some stations with that phenomenon as we don't need their produce.

 

[Gemai]

1. During deliveries, prior to 2.1 ... now no longer shown. Legal drugs? or illegal drugs? Or both? We'll never know now, or maybe we will when it returns in 2.2
2. The market does not care what the goods are as long as you make a profit. The influence gain of the faction is purely on the profit made by you as the individual, and not down to the type of good in regard to its economy type. If it were, agricultural's would be permanently bust when buying all that High Tech stuff in. If its legal, on the commodity market and you make a profit then its toward Boom state. If its legal but doesn't appear on the market unless you have it in your hold, then its toward Bust.
3. Yes. Its illegal, so it undermines economy and security. Its not about economic power and taxes, they don't exist in the game system to system. Its just plain illegal, no more than that.
4. So, any faction that does not enter a state of Boom will enter Famine or Outbreak at some point. Any faction that does not own a market, has no missions performed for it, will enter Famine or outbreak. So if i were to monitor a system on the edge, where nobody used the market or very infrequently, all the factions should enter Famine or Outbreak. So if nothing happens in this system, how does it determine Famine or Outbreak? Nothing is random, so there must be something deciding which? This question has been asked numerous times in this thread, read back 30 pages.
5. Legal Weapons? No one has mentioned it would drive to Unrest before. Yes, selling to market of any profitable goods will force Boom. If I sell 400t of Silver to a Extraction economy I'm not getting the top price, in fact they sell it out so its a lowish price, I will still push them to Boom quickly.
6. Yes partially. If you then leave it long enough (3 days is normally enough) it will return to normal. If not, without FD intervention the CG's would be causing havoc on the systems that have the CG imposed on them. To the point of it should be flipping economy types. It doesn't. There is no in game economy, each system is autonomous and completely independent of the systems around it. And if you think about it, that little change you talk of, if the economy were fluid in any fashion, and linked to those around it, well then it should have a knock on effect on those systems around it. And the largest effect on the smallest populated systems. And when I go trading 400t of Imp Slaves for 5 hours at 1 jump per delivery, it should cause some effect on the system, driving it into Famine. I have just massively increased the pop! Loads of people, no food brought in. Hey guess what, it goes into Boom!!!!! Its a counter, it counts profit.
7. No you can't. It is what is, as set by FD.

Well fine, for the sake of argue...

1. It was in 2.1 and was patched out with .05. The missions showed you the item effects when delivered. Also many sales have proven - unlike you want to - that selling weapons will make civil unrest pend in the long run. Or long trade. Why do you fight that so hard? If you don't want to believe our statistics feel free.

2. The influence doesn't care as long as it is a profitable new trade route, yes. The state damn well do. Boom gets furthered by any good - unless drugs really cause bust - but it has increased boom effect on resources and machinery and technology. Food prevents famines, medicine prevents outbreaks for the owning faction. Weapons cause civil unrest for the faction etc.

3. That was an example to make it fit a roleplay perspective. Ingame smuggling only hurts the % minor and causes bust. If we feel it realistic or not was the point. The mechanic is fine.

4.The one they didn't have last time. It is that easy. If they just had famine or outbreak, the bucket is more empty, so the next will obviously be the other. This question isn't hard. Hell, I had border systems near us with 5 factions in famine! It was the outermost possible cluster. No visitors. First thing I did was help those poor sods.

5. Selling weaponry (the category includes non-lethal and armour as well) causes unrest. I mentioned it long before this. I also have caused it more than once, mostly to factions I don't care about. I also told other people how their mysterious unrest in their faction came to be. They admitted to having mass traded weaponry.

6. No the production bar (ranging from one - to three - ) will only lower itself again if the produce is bought. It does not return after 3 days. It only does so if you buy the produce and increase the demand again by using up its resources. There are many "dead" economies which produce all on one - even outside of war or election. Those systems are ruined as they only get bought and never delivered. Most of the times this concerns the billion systems people only visit to buy items.
I don't know what the commodity group of "humans" (slaves or imp slaves) does. It could be neutral, it could provoke a pending famine if done enough times. Who knows. I don't condone slave trafficking so I most certainly won't test it.

7. There is a possibility that FD made it half-static. We don't know, FD doesn't tell and no one mass grinded systems to eradicate pirates yet in low pop it seems for reliable data. We will live and learn.

 

[_Flin_]

Also contrary to your statement that the economy in game is blatant, it has a minor twist. If you bring enough goods to the station, the corresponding production rises. Bring them food and the production of bio waste increases in the long run. Bring them mineral oil and a refinery will increase the fabric production. The economy ingame is not a dead dog, you just have to work it.

Please define "enough".
Is this enough in an hour or in one tick? Or enough in one 10 minute economy tick (if they still exist)?

And how much is "enough"? And does the effect last or is temporary? Similarly, does the effect work as a downside as well (Production gets lower if noone delivers items)?

Thank You

 

[dynamicbob]

Please define "enough".
Is this enough in an hour or in one tick? Or enough in one 10 minute economy tick (if they still exist)?

And how much is "enough"? And does the effect last or is temporary? Similarly, does the effect work as a downside as well (Production gets lower if noone delivers items)?

Thank You

tempoary impact is the way it is, theres no permanent way to affect localised development indexes both positive and negative, Fdev havent gone that far in the complexity, they dont have the dev talent or the funds to committ development resources beyond the current 2.3-2.4 and 3.0 dev roadmap board directives from braben.

And i dont think that mindset will change any time soon, so we have seen 2 years in the culture and approach at Fdev isnt changing so perhaps its just time we accept the BGS will remain as is , no additional changes to the detriment of the long term success of the game and move on.

 

[Henkka77]

Has there been any talk by Fdev getting your faction name visible to that "no faction" spot at the HUD?
I know superpower pledge shows there but it would be sweet to get your very own minor factions name there.
Atm its a bit immersion breaking that its not there..
I mean it could be implemented the same way when you choose your side when arriving at CZ, cant be that hard, or can it?