Alien archeology and other mysteries: Thread 9 - The Canonn

[Xenia_K]

short question to the cdrs which discovered site 2 & 3 - were U in PG/open or in solo-mode whilst discovery ?

 

[QorbeQ]

Are you taking into account the inclination of both moon and planet?

Are you assuming a circular orbit path for the moon? vs an elliptical one? (is that data even available for the moon?)

The moon's orbital inclination, moon's orbital period and the planet's rotational period are what I'm factoring in. The inclination should be with respect to the equator of the planet (and if memory serves the moon's orbit lines do indeed run perpendicular to the planet's orbit lines). If it wasn't, and was -6.8 degrees off the orbital plane of the planet then the moon would orbit significantly towards the planetary poles which it clearly doesn't.

I am assuming a circular orbit, but the eccentricity is marked as 0.0000 so I'm assuming that's also inconsequential.

This fits observations. That moon rotates about 90° on the parent planet's orbital plane. Not 6.8°.

That's what I recall too. I really want to be able to model the moon track (and relevant offset track) just from the available orbital parameters (e.g. EDDB) to allow candidate locations to be pre-scouted but the empirical observation of the moon over 1b doesn't meet my expectations at all.


o7

 

[yowl]

Point to the star at every point between B,C, and D.

ok, sorry, thought you were disagreeing.

 

[SpaceGoblin]

Nice work.

Did I miss it, or did you try (as someone suggested pages and pages ago) treating relics as unique? That is, instead of using the same relic on all scans using the location of the relic and scanning nearby or more distant obelisks.

Did you try activating all the relics before scanning anything (obvs things which do not require a relic)?

Did you try scanning before having removed any relics?

Do we think any other commodities/items might be required? Perhaps fruit from the alien trees?

Of course, it's still possible it's just bugged.

1) Not tried that. Seems a long shot.

2) I always activate, scan but not touch the relics before I scan obelisks. Then I get a relic when I need one (or hang on to one from a previous visit).

3) I hope not. At least not obviously ruins associated. The "fruit" of the alien "trees" becomes materials as soon as you scoop it.

- - - Updated - - -

Are the rise/fall locations all within the large/small circular structures? That was the theory, they would vary but still fall within those ranges.

Yeah, this, I'm eager to know if this holds true, or if I should just drop this moon obsession!

I'll be going back to check myself, but additional observers to assist/confirm either way would be handy

 

[nrage]

3) I hope not. At least not obviously ruins associated. The "fruit" of the alien "trees" becomes materials as soon as you scoop it.

Hmm, yeah I had confused this with commodities. Plenty of commanders would have had those materials when scanning so this is probably nothing.. although, maybe a certain number of them are required (no, this is a joke)

 

[zorbaq]

Are the rise/fall locations all within the large/small circular structures? That was the theory, they would vary but still fall within those ranges.

Depends on the location of your point of view.

 

[Stormprooter]

Found nothing, searched both 111 & -9 by flying along that long from -28 to -33 lat.
Verified my ability to find something by flying along -128 long from -28 southwards, and indeed I spotted the original site.

Spoiler

http://i.imgur.com/VGIAv09.jpg

Grabbed a set of artifacts (not any relics this time) from the site, and when leaving, spotted a BIG blue POI circle. Don't know if it marks the ruins or some regular POI stuff nearby though.

Spoiler

http://i.imgur.com/4dlxgqG.jpg

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks for having a look, I'll probably go myself to confirm the negative as well.
You have sharp eyes being able to spot the original ruins from that distance
And, nice find on the POI - it's probably a crash site, but we can hope for something more interesting.....

 

[SpaceGoblin]

Depends on the location of your point of view.

The centre point of the ruins.

 

[zorbaq]

short question to the cdrs which discovered site 2 & 3 - were U in PG/open or in solo-mode whilst discovery ?

I was in solo.

The centre point of the ruins.

How was that established? And where is it?

 

[CMDR Dreamstate]

I have a new theory and I don't like it at all. I hope I'm proven wrong...

What we know so far:

• We have one system which was found by following star constellations seen in a trailer video. One ruin was found in this system. While I see a good chance finding the right system by matching star constellations chances for finding the one and only ruin in the system without any capable sensory equipment and with an estimated visual discovery range of 4 km are very very low.
• We were given four more systems to search. Even more planets with a very low chance to find a SINGLE ruin on it. We suspect one ruin in each system and we already found half of them in a very short time. This smells fishy.
• The second ruin is identical to the first ruin.
• We know we have to find 101 data entries.
• We know we can find 11-13 data entries per ruin in Solo and FD said it is a bug that we can get more in PG/Open.

Sorry, had to snip the rest of your post because I couldn't type because of character limit

With regards to finding the 2nd and 3rd ruins so quickly, it was either luck, or people were lucking out over my 32/64 theory after deviating from those co-ordinates and didn't mention that was the method they used, because, hey, "look at me, I did it" glory and all that Zorbaq says it was spider sense and he/she had no theory, but used the "Haversine Method" [edit] to track progress, which is otherwise known as Trigonometry, which is something I also raised in this forum more than a week ago with the below pic:

Spoiler

It was something else I was working out and shared it with the community, though it, I assume, largely went unnoticed.

Because the ruins are hard to know where lines are drawn in the gaps (do you measure from the centre of the gap in the mounds, or the right side of the mound or left?), I decided to even out the 30ish and 60ish numbers to "bits" like data - because the original ruin site we knew of at the time was around 31.xxxx'ish by 128.xxxx'ish - I instantly assumed these must be the true numbers (32/64/128ish), based on the lore already uncovered that the Guardians loved AI - it was a logical conclusion, but I should have just stayed with the other measurements, mentioned below.

So I went from the above drawing, to this (looks similar to my trigonometry drawings - trace the lines):

Spoiler

to this:

Spoiler

As it turns out, I wasn't completely wrong, but I wasn't completely accurate either. You'll notice the first measurements I took were around 30/60 in the old diagram I was messing with - and because of error margins on the picture itself (wasn't directly over-head for the best measuring angle with a compass), I put forward that 32/64/128 in any combination had potential - simply based on the only 1 ruin for evidence that we had.

The ruins so far were also located on planets with moons - and because all 3 discovered sites share proper moons, these had proportionately higher amounts of players in solo/private searching anywhere from 30 (or less) to 128 (or more). The IC systems also have less planets to search, so again, this cuts down search time.

The 4th and 5th ruin cannot be easily distinguished like the 3 previous, because the Gas Giants with moons (with occasional binaries) are confusing people as to where to search.

Do they search AB 3 Or D 2, for example?

I think the ruins that are left at the Synuefe co-ordinates are on the binary worlds. Planet 1 in Synuefe ZL-J d10-119 and D 2 in Synuefe XO-P c22-17 - both of which share remarkable, similar characteristics (large body does not move or rotate or spin etc, although the other planet in the binary Orbits the larger one).

Any other planet + moon combinations don't match up with the other 3 sites - so in logical conclusion, the next 2 must be different but the same (binaries).

EDIT: However, all the co-ordinates are going to deviate more than we think they ever will (which is why no one is right*) - simply because Frontier don't want us finding them all at once if we ever figured out HOW to find them. It keeps us guessing.

*Moon Hypothesis, My Hypothesis, whatever hypothesis, etc, etc

 

[SpaceGoblin]

How was that established? And where is it?

It is just the most (to this human) logical starting point for alignment observations without any other indication of where to stand. Its also at the tip of the ridge/stalk/key feature in the ruins at sites one and 2.

My most recent raving about it (with pictures) is HERE. With apologies to all who are sick of that link appearing! Trying to find out if its all a dud - if it is, I'll let it go [redface]

The whole notion may be flawed, but until thats shown, I'm hanging on to it [wacky]

Cheers.

 

[madwax]

Science conquers all!

On related subject I'm trying to model D 7 but I'm stumped with orbital axis's. Does any one know if all orbital axis's are to the galactic plane, system plane or do they stack? When I say stack I mean system + planet or system + planet + moon ?

madwax....

 

[zorbaq]

Zorbaq says it was spider sense and he/she had no theory, but used the "Haversine Method", which is otherwise known as Trigonometry, which is something I also raised in this forum more than a week ago with the below pic:

I used the havarsine formula simply to keep track of how much a traversed degree translates into distance traveled.

 

[CMDR Vox-Lee]

As it turns out, I wasn't completely wrong, but I wasn't completely accurate either.

That means you were wrong actually. The second site was not found at 32 64, it was at 29 -59, which is the difference off hundreds of kilometers.
Also, just because someone found a site does not mean it was with your theory. Heck, I was searching planets with no theory at all, just for the sheer fun of it. My bro has his own idea we are trying. I am sure loads of others do the same. I'll be honest, I don't even understand your theory let alone apply it. This is a game, not University.
Too many theories... too many...

 

[Suteksio]

TL;DR Unknown Artefacts and Probes are of human manufacture, utilising non-human technology. UAs are being used to track hyperspatial movements in the Pleiades, the Formdidine Rift, the Conflux and Hawking's Gap, whilst UPs are looking for a presence on the surface of Ammonia Worlds. Human outposts and infrastructure are being developed in Col 70 Sector, where a significant discovery has been made.
.
Recent events have compelled me to re-think my conceptions of the purpose of the Unknown Probes and Unknown Artefacts. These fascinating objects continue to pose questions such as: why are they only positioned around Merope? Why do they use Morse? How did they get there when they have no apparent means of propulsion and what is their purpose? These are still important questions and, having taken a bit of a step back to think about it and with some new information that has recently come to light, I feel that I am making progress in my understanding of them, which I shall endeavour to share in the post. There is 'tinfoil' - but there are predictions that will falsify my ideas (though doing so will not be easy in 2.2).

Spoiler

The key observations and information that have led to my new way of thinking are as follows:

• UAs were first found in convoys, long before they were found free-floating, and UPs were found in convoys at about the same time as discovering free-floating UPs became possible.
• It is easier to think of human beings using Morse to communicate with other human beings than an alien race using Morse.
• It has been said (by Drew Wagar on a recent livestream, DJTruthsayer's iirc) that there are still people who know ancient languages like Latin and Greek in 3303 but that there are not many of them and that they might use those languages to ensure that only a select group of people will understand them.
• News that Wreaken Construction are operating in Col 70 Sector and that they have a huge construction fleet massing in Zearla. (That this seems to be hazardous work is not related - my guess for that is that someone got in Salome's way).
• UPs report distances relative to a system in Col 70 Sector (Col 70 Sector FY-N c21-3).
• Communication logs from the 'Dynasty' missions to the Formidine Rift, the Conflux and Hawking's Gap report that they are dropping off artefacts and beacons. When these are activated they transmit code and there are also reports of ship systems shutting down during deployment, reminiscent of UP behaviour.
• UAs only scan ships within 1km, yet they are placed in all systems in only a narrow shell zone around Merope that could easily be crossed without entering a system within the actual shell zone.
• Of the three alien ship crash sites, only the ones with human ships have UAs amongst the wreckage.

It is the first of the above points that leads me to thinking that human convoys were taking, firstly, the UAs and later on, once the UA shell was complete, the UPs to their destinations rather than recovering them for analysis. It is fair to assume that some NPC explorations are ongoing (there is debris in degraded emissions signal sources out to 10KLY from the bubble) but the UAs and UPs would have to have been found immediately and the convoys deployed immediately for those convoys to have been found by us at the same time as the discovery of UAs and UPs. It is much easier to explain their presence on board convoys at the times they were found if they were being taken to their destinations, rather than being recovered from them (and this also explains why there are UAs only at the crash sites where human ships, which are all large pad ships, are also present). This in turn implies that the UAs and UPs are of human manufacture, despite their alien appearance. This also ties in nicely with the point above relating to the possible use of these objects in the 'Dynasty' mission and implies that they existed as long ago as 3270. We know that there was a skirmish with another civilisation prior to that and it would make sense for us to try to understand and utilise new technologies from captured or destroyed vessels. Those encounters would also provide the motivation to keep a close watch for the approach of any more alien ships encroaching upon our territory and to determine the location of other civilisations, which leads me onto the purpose of the UAs.
.
If another civilisation were capable of extreme range hyperspace jumps, then it would be possible for them to approach human space completely undetected in normal space and to arrive in force without warning. What would be needed is the means to detect them in hyperspace. I believe that this is the function of the UAs for several reasons, based upon the points above relating to how they have been deployed. Firstly, they are deployed in such a way that they have very little chance of being detected by a passing ship, that does not know they are there, and that the likelihood of an accidental discovery in normal space decreases with increasing jump range - you pass across the UA shell zone in a single jump and are less likely to enter it and be scanned directly. Secondly, they only scan ships in normal space at the extremely short range of 1km - this is no good as an early warning system and only lets you know if one is being approached directly in normal space, when the risk is that the UA will be destroyed or captured by something investigating its anomalous emissions (which are only detectable - by us - at close range in normal space). Their deployment in a thin shell around Merope indicates that there is something there that another civilisation might send ships to investigate, or that ships are anticipated to be leaving Merope. The UA shell would be able to record the time and direction of any vessel travelling to or from Merope in hyperspace, regardless of its jump range. The deployment of UAs in, for the time, the far reaches of the Milky Way, as part of the 'Dynasty' mission, provides an early warning of hyperspace activity in those regions. If more ships are crossing those regions in our direction, the extreme distance might give us enough of a warning to mobilise our defences whilst the small and discreet deployments (they maintained radio silence between groups) minimised the chances of discovery during the mission (some were detected and intercepted anyway but there seem to have been succesful deployments in all three regions). This implies that there are UAs to be found in, around or beyond the locations of bases in the Formidine Rift, the Conflux and Hawking's Gap. Note that this would not be a solution to the Formidine Rift mystery but finding UAs would point us further in the right direction in which to continue the search.
.
The use of Morse by both UAs and UPs has often been conjectured to be the choice of an alien race based upon a previous encounter with ancient human probes. To me, this explanation is unsatisfying, given that other means of communication, e.g. binary code, would also have been used and is more universal than Morse. Drew Wagar's recent comments about ancient languages like Latin only being known by a select group of people suggested to me that Morse code is probably in the same category. This would make Morse an ideal language to use to communicate in such a way that only an exclusive group of people would be expected to understand it. It is also easier to believe that human beings would use Morse to communicate with other human beings!
.
Merope and Merope 5c have been scoured for signs of anything interesting and the only thing that has been discovered are Barnacles on Merope 5c. Whilst interesting, Barnacles are not exclusively found there. The motivation for monitoring Merope and transmitting signals to Merope 5c implies that there is a facility on Merope 5c to transmit to. It also means that it has been known for some time - time enough to deploy a vast number of UAs to the shell - that there is a reason for some other civilisation to be taking an interest in Merope, that makes it worth tracking hyperspace travel to and from the region. One of the implications of this is that there must still be something to find in Merope, even if it is only a small relay station hidden away on Merope 5c. That Ammonia Worlds in the region are also being monitored suggests that there is a possibility that an alien presence may already have been established in the region, even if that was in the past and outposts on Ammonia Worlds are destroyed/decayed and not currently in use. Why the information on Ammonia Worlds should be transmitted to a permit-locked system in Col 70 Sector has only recently become possible to address, with the news that Wreaken Construction is operating in the sector.
.
Wreaken Construction appeared on the scene in Galnet with the news of a huge fleet of construction ships massing in the Zearla system, that did not take kindly to curious passers-by. Now we hear that they are operating in a permit-locked region that is notable only for being the base reference for the UPs' co-ordinate system. The UPs single out the system Col 70 Sector FY-N c21-3 as being of interest because they describe all distances to Ammonia Worlds relative to their distance to that system, in Morse. This suggests that this system is of some significance to those who deployed them. I suspect that the significance of this system is going to be at the heart of 2.4 (unless the sector is unlocked prior to that) and that when we can reach it we will find one or more signifcant human space stations and/or outposts there. There might be significant non-human remains or activity there also, that requires that the infrastructure be in place to exploit or 'acquire' it. This is currently unfalsifiable speculation, however. It does tell us that Ammonia Worlds in this region are significant to whoever built the UPs. Note that this does not imply hostility, at this stage, only caution.
.
To summarise the test-able parts, my understanding shows several areas where we are currently missing something that should be there:

• UAs should be found in the regions around or beyond the surface outposts in the Formidine Rift, the Conflux and Hawking's Gap.
• A small, discreet human settlement should exist on Merope 5c. There should be something else in the Merope system that is of interest to a non-human civilisation but this need not be on a planetary surface - it would be the reason why the UA shell was built in the first place.
• Infrastructure is being developed in Col 70 Sector (needs a future update to unlock the region, or some way of getting the regional permit).
• Hyperdictions may occur as we encroach on the territory of another civilisation, not only in the Pleiades.

I hope that my thoughts are of use to others in developing their own understanding of the storyline and some of the events that have taken place. I do not expect that I will stop developing my ideas and understanding, especially as new information becomes available, but hopefully by providing testable ideas it can guide us all to new knowledge and understanding. Thank you for taking the time to read this far and fly safe (especially if you head out beyond the Rift)!

Very good read. Thanks for taking the time to put it together.

Sorry, had to snip the rest of your post because I couldn't type because of character limit

With regards to finding the 2nd and 3rd ruins so quickly, it was either luck, or people were lucking out over my 32/64 theory after deviating from those co-ordinates and didn't mention that was the method they used, because, hey, "look at me, I did it" glory and all that Zorbaq says it was spider sense and he/she had no theory, but used the "Haversine Method", which is otherwise known as Trigonometry, which is something I also raised in this forum more than a week ago with the below pic:

Spoiler

http://i.imgur.com/nvcNwqx.jpg

It was something else I was working out and shared it with the community, though it, I assume, largely went unnoticed.

Because the ruins are hard to know where lines are drawn in the gaps (do you measure from the centre of the gap in the mounds, or the right side of the mound or left?), I decided to even out the 30ish and 60ish numbers to "bits" like data - because the original ruin site we knew of at the time was around 31.xxxx'ish by 128.xxxx'ish - I instantly assumed these must be the true numbers (32/64/128ish), based on the lore already uncovered that the Guardians loved AI - it was a logical conclusion, but I should have just stayed with the other measurements, mentioned below.

So I went from the above drawing, to this (looks similar to my trigonometry drawings - trace the lines):

Spoiler

http://i.imgur.com/NBBHU55.jpg

to this:

Spoiler

http://i.imgur.com/UOl9Vgt.jpg

As it turns out, I wasn't completely wrong, but I wasn't completely accurate either. You'll notice the first measurements I took were around 30/60 in the old diagram I was messing with - and because of error margins on the picture itself (wasn't directly over-head for the best measuring angle with a compass), I put forward that 32/64/128 in any combination had potential - simply based on the only 1 ruin for evidence that we had.

The ruins so far were also located on planets with moons - and because all 3 discovered sites share proper moons, these had proportionately higher amounts of players in solo/private searching anywhere from 30 (or less) to 128 (or more). The IC systems also have less planets to search, so again, this cuts down search time.

The 4th and 5th ruin cannot be easily distinguished like the 3 previous, because the Gas Giants with moons (with occasional binaries) are confusing people as to where to search.

Do they search AB 3 Or D 2, for example?

I think the ruins that are left at the Synuefe co-ordinates are on the binary worlds. Planet 1 in Synuefe ZL-J d10-119 and D 2 in Synuefe XO-P c22-17 - both of which share remarkable, similar characteristics (large body does not move or rotate or spin etc, although the other planet in the binary Orbits the larger one).

Any other planet + moon combinations don't match up with the other 3 sites - so in logical conclusion, the next 2 must be different but the same (binaries).

It's amazing, everything that happens in the game revolves around your theories. Even when you have to twist math or reality to make it happen. Truly amazing.

 

[Vasco Sapien]

Pretty much.

The sites are the same. Let us all just come to terms with that, accept it, and move on [arrrr]

There are more to find out there [hotas]

Lord Braben has said on numerous occasions that everything has to be of a high quality...

This cut and paste of site 2 is not high quality. Its cheap.

One of the reasons that we all love this game is due to the high production standards and this asset flip is very lazy.

Everyone was taken back by its discovery. everyone was disappointed.

Its a bug.... then QA is slipping...
Its on purpose.... then QA is slipping...

There is no win.

 

[Rampant]

Hmm, I did investigate that earlier on too, if I'm not mistaken ED uses orbital plane of a body in question to calculate its axial tilt and its parent body's equator as reference for orbital inclination...

That wouldn't make much sense to my own mind - because a planet's "equator" is not a fixed frame of reference. Using the Earth as an example, the Earth has an axial tilt of 23.5°, (meaning the sun appears to wander north and south on a frequency that is determined by each orbit of the Earth around it's star, ie sun transits north and south once per year) The equator is Earth's is tilted over in reference to the orbit it takes around the Sun.
If the moon had a tilt that was referenced to the Earth's *equator*, then in my own mind, the axial tilt between the moon' axis of rotation and the Earth's equator would not be a constant, are am I wrong about that?

I would personally need to look at a complete list of all the orbital parameters from ED for all the objects in the system to get this straight in my head. Visualising a 3D representation of a spinning moon of a spinning planet of a spinning star of a star isn't easy. (Even for a professional Air Navigator who works frequently with the Air Almanac)

Yours Aye

Mark H

 

[Han_Zen]

On related subject I'm trying to model D 7 but I'm stumped with orbital axis's. Does any one know if all orbital axis's are to the galactic plane, system plane or do they stack? When I say stack I mean system + planet or system + planet + moon ?

madwax....

I think they stack, but I'm not 100% sure.

 

[QorbeQ]

Ahah. I may have the answer and (as predicted) it was a flaw in my mathematics.

Does anyone have details for the planet's axial tilt for the other sites (not the alpha site). EDDB doesn't list this information.


o7

 

[3rdWheel]

I was just looking at the Galaxy Map in-game, seeing the relative positioning of all the potential systems given by Ram Tah, plus the original ruins system. 4 of the systems are all fairly close together, with one system (Synuefe ZL-J D10-119) a fair distance away. So if the sites form a communications network, perhaps the site in that system is near a planetary pole and maintains a fairly fixed view of the sky back towards the other 4 systems. The other sites rotate with their planets to enable communication with the rest of the network.