All, I see a lot a threads about, my ship was destroyed in seconds...

[SkipRat]

non-consensual pvp is optional, because you have the option of three modes to play this game. open - group - solo. as i have said, i personally wouldn't take my engineered multipurpose python for a trading CG in open at the moment.

But that is the whole point, it should be a choice, not because you are forced too because of poor game mechanics.

Just like the lack of crime and punishment mechanics is forcing players into private/solo because it is the victim that is punished not the criminal.

Now explorers are getting it 20,000ly from the core and being forced into private/solo mode, because of the lack of game mechanics
which allows fully prepped super jump god combat ships to go out as far as explorers.... It's mental....

And suggesting to play in solo/priv is not an option, as a proper beta testing should have had huge red warning lights flashing a rethink is required.

 

[goemon]

But that is the whole point...

okay. i-said-he-said:

I totally agree that's it's a matter of choice, but I do think that the gap between a E ship and a engineered A ship is now way too big, 2.1 has not put dedicated players a step ahead as it should be but a mountain above the others...

i was replying to that with:

i don't think that has changed a lot; what has changed:
- survivability of non pvp+engineer builds. e.g. before 2.1. you could always ressort to a "cheap but fast"-ship (cobra mkiii), or outfit heavy enough to survive a random pvp encounter (a python with a smallish safety scb). i'm not sure whether i would still take my multipurpose python for a trading cg unmodified.

- obviously this only applies to non-consensual pvp, which is optional in ED

Gedemon was talking about the gap between a stock ship, and an engineered A-class ship.

i really do not think, that that has changed in 2.1. - i don't think that the outcome of taking an e-grade cobra into combat against an a-grade pvp FAS was very different pre and post 2.1.

what has changed is the survivability against pvp-optimized ships. you will be more likely destroyed before you can highwake.

survivability isn't a problem, when you don't do non-consensual pvp. "sir robin"-builds or defensive builds work nicely outside of non-consensual pvp. OP pointed out

But when I asked what the config was, he stated that he and used the smallest modules he could as he wanted more cargo space and reduced weight for longer range!

here lies the problem, the game is based on trade offs, if you do this and get your butt handed to you by the AI, or another commander, do not complain about it!!! it's the choice YOU made!

this is true. if you fit the smallest shield possible, you make a choice upon your chances to survive an encounter, whether you go against AI or another commander. if you don't fit point defence, you make a choice upon your chance to survive an encounter.

i'm not sure how you come from this to

That is completely misleading. ... Sorry, I have no idea what planet you are on, but it is not most certainly not planet truth.

?

 

[Gedemon]

i don't think that has changed a lot; what has changed:
- survivability of non pvp+engineer builds. e.g. before 2.1. you could always ressort to a "cheap but fast"-ship (cobra mkiii), or outfit heavy enough to survive a random pvp encounter (a python with a smallish safety scb). i'm not sure whether i would still take my multipurpose python for a trading cg unmodified.

- obviously this only applies to non-consensual pvp, which is optional in ED

- pve, a-grade less costly unengineered ships perform better then cheap unengineered builds of a more expensive ship. "upgrade a combat ship while flying it" is less of valid strategy now (an a grade hrp cobra will outperform a d-grade fdl, engineered or not)



yes. but again: non-consensual pvp is optional. if you like to do it, you need horizons and engineer your ship.

i have a second account without horizons - pve is challenging, but fine for me.

but that's a huge change IMO, it turns the game not even into a pay to win but into a pay to survive.

okay. i-said-he-said:



i was replying to that with:



Gedemon was talking about the gap between a stock ship, and an engineered A-class ship.

i really do not think, that that has changed in 2.1. - i don't think that the outcome of taking an e-grade cobra into combat against an a-grade pvp FAS was very different pre and post 2.1.

what has changed is the survivability against pvp-optimized ships. you will be more likely destroyed before you can highwake.

survivability isn't a problem, when you don't do non-consensual pvp. "sir robin"-builds or defensive builds work nicely outside of non-consensual pvp. OP pointed out



this is true. if you fit the smallest shield possible, you make a choice upon your chances to survive an encounter, whether you go against AI or another commander. if you don't fit point defence, you make a choice upon your chance to survive an encounter.

i'm not sure how you come from this to

?

my point is about survivability, of course it's perfectly fine that a better fitted ship wins in PvP, pre or post 2.1.

but in my book "winning" is when your opponent is no more on the battlefield at the end, you could lose but escape a fight in a FAS E when engaged by a (non engineered) FAS A, and still can, 2.1 doesn't change anything in that case, but I don't think you can escape it the same way in a FAS A engaged by an engineered FAS A.

basically OP (and you) are saying that post-2.1 you better go in solo or private if you want to survive without grinding the engineers, while I'm saying that you could survive in open in pre-2.1 without grinding for A rated modules.

 

[goemon]

I don't think you can escape it the same way in a FAS A engaged by an engineered FAS A.

more or less, yes. i don't think it's about shiptype, in many cases it will come down to unengineered vs. engineered.

basically OP (and you) are saying that post-2.1 you better go in solo or private if you want to survive without grinding the engineers, while I'm saying that you could survive in open in pre-2.1 without grinding for A rated modules.

i think there all three of us differ.

OP pointed out the fact, that choices of outfitting play a role in encounters with both players and AI. "my ship got destroyed in seconds" is something we read on AI and player encounters both.

i would say, that it is definetly true on AI encounters. i would say, that this is only true in a small part of pvp encounters, if you don't engineer your ship. if you don't engineer your ship, and don't go full range on scb and heatsinks, severely cutting into your cargo capacity, you can as well fly your unengineered python with any small shield in open on a CG - you anyways won't survive till highwake an pvp-encounter with an engineered ship if interdicted succesfully.

i also differ on your description of pre 2.1. - i don't think you would have survived long enough in a not a-graded, "grinded" sip. the special charme was, that a fairly cheap ship (a cobra mkIII) was the safiest ship of all. but you still needed to a-grade it ;-)

this kind of safety/survivability is gone.

but it is only gone in a quite small part, and furthermore optional part of the game - non-consensual pvp encounters.

 

[SpeakerToAliens]

Non-consensual PVP isn't optional if you like playing in Open! There's an AH CMDR in an Engineered Anaconda in Maia who hangs around just outside the slot and tries to blow away anyone who leaves before they can get out of Mass lock. No demands, just PewPewPew.

He blew me away in my A rated DBX in seconds (fully A rated with a Military Composite hull). I tried to get back to the station and was right outside the slot when I blew. The station did NOT fire on him and actually allowed him to dock afterwards!

I tried again with a jump destination already set boosting out of the slot at max instead of sticking to the speed limit (fore-warned is fore-armed). He went past me like I was standing still, then he turned, opened fire and my shields were just gone. I kept dodging and boosting and high-waked out with just 6% hull left.

I love playing in Open, but if FD don't do something about the AHs in Engineered ships ruining the game for everyone else, I'm going to have to stop playing in Open.

 

[Gedemon]

more or less, yes. i don't think it's about shiptype, in many cases it will come down to unengineered vs. engineered.



i think there all three of us differ.

OP pointed out the fact, that choices of outfitting play a role in encounters with both players and AI. "my ship got destroyed in seconds" is something we read on AI and player encounters both.

i would say, that it is definetly true on AI encounters. i would say, that this is only true in a small part of pvp encounters, if you don't engineer your ship. if you don't engineer your ship, and don't go full range on scb and heatsinks, severely cutting into your cargo capacity, you can as well fly your unengineered python with any small shield in open on a CG - you anyways won't survive till highwake an pvp-encounter with an engineered ship if interdicted succesfully.

i also differ on your description of pre 2.1. - i don't think you would have survived long enough in a not a-graded, "grinded" sip. the special charme was, that a fairly cheap ship (a cobra mkIII) was the safiest ship of all. but you still needed to a-grade it ;-)

this kind of safety/survivability is gone.

but it is only gone in a quite small part, and furthermore optional part of the game - non-consensual pvp encounters.

Well, I suppose I was in the small part playing in open not to do full PvP but for the "anything can happen" part of it, which was fun as long as you had a chance to escape an agressive player. For example a mixed A/D Viper build for speed was perfect, the Cobra MkIII was not the only choice.

I've always fought the notion of PvE being for private server only and "open" being "PvP only", I thought FD wanted open to be "all kind of multiplayer interaction".

With 2.1 and your interpretation of "non consensual PvP", it seems that you think that open should be PvP only.

that makes me sad, ok, maybe I'm a minority, but for that minority 2.1 has killed open.

 

[SkipRat]

Gedemon was talking about the gap between a stock ship, and an engineered A-class ship.

i really do not think, that that has changed in 2.1. - i don't think that the outcome of taking an e-grade cobra into combat against an a-grade pvp FAS was very different pre and post 2.1.

what has changed is the survivability against pvp-optimized ships. you will be more likely destroyed before you can highwake.

survivability isn't a problem, when you don't do non-consensual pvp. "sir robin"-builds or defensive builds work nicely outside of non-consensual pvp. OP pointed out
?

Of course an E-rated Cobra MKIII was always going to die against a A rated FAS, and engineers makes that slaughter even quicker. What has happened though, engineers have moved the safety margin to beyond A-rated in many cases, as now need engineered equipment to even start thinking about survivability or even having a chance in combat and that is what is so misleading about your post. So comparing a situation where something had no chance to begin with, then saying it made no difference after engineers and therefor no problem is hiding the many propblems many players are having.

I have had an A-rated type-6, with some level engineering, it got get stripped to 30% hull by a deadly Cobra MKIII before my jump engines could kick in an I could high wake out. A single Cobra MKIII should not be able do this in a few seconds.

Engineers has massively change the game, and even a-rated is not enough now for most encounters, especially against engineered NPC's.

 

[goemon]

Because I have had an A-rated type-6, with some level engineering, get stripped to 30% hull by a deadly Cobra MK111 before my jump engines could kick in an I could high wake out.

Engineers has massively change the game, and even a-rated is not enough now for most encounters, especially against engineered NPC's.

for exactly the reason op has stated, i'd like to know the outfitting of your t6.

my assumption is

a) it had a class 2/class 3 shield, instead of a class 4
and
b) it had no pointdefence or ecm.

 

[goemon]

Well, I suppose I was in the small part playing in open not to do full PvP but for the "anything can happen" part of it, which was fun as long as you had a chance to escape an agressive player. For example a mixed A/D Viper build for speed was perfect, the Cobra MkIII was not the only choice.

I've always fought the notion of PvE being for private server only and "open" being "PvP only", I thought FD wanted open to be "all kind of multiplayer interaction".

With 2.1 and your interpretation of "non consensual PvP", it seems that you think that open should be PvP only.

that makes me sad, ok, maybe I'm a minority, but for that minority 2.1 has killed open.

absolutely not, i play open for the same reasons you do. and i have rallied to make the new enhanced performance thrusters available to all players, so at least everyone could outfit a highspeed adder/hauler for exactly that reason.

but as it is, i switch to group or solo if things get silly around a cg.

even some pvp'lers already stated doing so, if attacked with heat weapons.

is this sad? a bit, but for me it only affects a tiny part of my game.

 

[SkipRat]

for exactly the reason op has stated, i'd like to know the outfitting of your t6.

my assumption is

a) it had a class 2/class 3 shield, instead of a class 4
and
b) it had no pointdefence or ecm.

Class 4 Shields may have been Bio-weave though, for lighter and faster recharge, because they can interdict you several times on your way to a station and you need the fast recharge to replenish your shields before the next interdiction.

2x point defence
1x heat sink
A=rated level 3 clean drive upgrade with a big bonus on optimal mass.


Not at home until next week so I would need to check next week...

 

[goemon]

Class 4 Shields may have been Bio-weave though, for lighter and faster recharge, because they can interdict you several times on your way to a station and you need the fast recharge to replenish your shields before the next interdiction.

2x point defence
1x heat sink
A=rated level 3 clean drive upgrade with a big bonus on optimal mass.


Not at home until next week so I would need to check next week...

bi-weaves aren't a good idea on a weakly shielded trader, as discussed in this thread: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...d-in-seconds?p=4453574&viewfull=1#post4453574

--- and if you highwake, recovery rate won't play much of a role.

basically you give up >20℅ shieldstrength, total number increasing with 4 pips to shields... more so if you put a booster instead of a second pointdefence, etc. etc.

it's about outfitting decisions.

also, escaping (with 30℅ hull) means survivability, no?

 

[SkipRat]

In

bi-weaves aren't a good idea on a weakly shielded trader, as discussed in this thread: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...d-in-seconds?p=4453574&viewfull=1#post4453574

--- and if you highwake, recovery rate won't play much of a role.

basically you give up >20℅ shieldstrength, total number increasing with 4 pips to shields... more so if you put a booster instead of a second pointdefence, etc. etc.

it's about outfitting decisions.

also, escaping (with 30℅ hull) means survivability, no?

I high waked as i was travelling between systems, i would have been dead after multiple interdictions, which happens a lot between star and station. In which case, bioweave are the best as they get back up and recharge quicker.... Ready for the next interdiction.

Missiles are lethal now and 1 point defence is not good enough, especially with multiple attackers, heat sinks for being able to escape from a sun etc if an interdiction goes that way...

And no its not about outfitting choices, as a class 4 bioweave should not disappear in seconds to small weapons and two mediums with pips in.

Sorry, but the balance is a joke now.

 

[ROSS-128]

Pl

What poor advice you are giving out there. I high waked as i was travelling between systems, i would have been dead after multiple interdictions, which happens a lot between star and station. In which case, bioweave are the best as they get back up and recharge quicker.... Ready for try the next one...

Missiles are lethal now and 1 point defence is not good enough, especially with multiple attackers, heat sinks for being able to escape from a sun etc if an interdiction goes that way...

And no its not about outfitting choices, as a class 4 bioweaver should not dissappear in seconds to small weapons and two mediums with pips in.

Sorry, but the balance is a joke now.

Regarding standard vs bi-weave, standard actually is better if you're planning to wake out. Shields don't recharge while taking fire (though the delay after they stop taking fire is pretty negligible, so beams are about the only thing that can 100% prevent recharge), so when waking out under fire capacity matters more than regen. Additionally, time is a factor. Waking out will generally only take about 30 seconds and bi-weaves only regen 0.8 hp/s more than standard, so in that encounter, even if regen suppression wasn't a thing, bi-weaves would only get you 24 extra HP. Regen during supercruise is accelerated, so standard has no disadvantage there.

Bi-weaves are for extended fights where you're going to have time to put that regen to work. Generally in a ship that can avoid taking consistent fire (to avoid having their regen suppressed) or in a hull-tank ship that is designed to let its shield fall and tank through the rebuild (because rebuild is not interrupted by taking fire).

If you're in a large, easy to hit ship with a fragile hull or you're planning to flee ASAP, standard or prismatics are better for their total volume with an SCB for emergency refills.

 

[Eloy]

I didn´t read the thread but I can report this:

When my Cutter was destroyed by NPCs (Anaconda and FDL jumped me when I was scavenging in a threat 0 SS) I later realised:
I had 7A shields (only), 2x PDs, Chaff.
Only 2 pips to shields until 25% of shields left.
I waited too long to escape (limpet, bring me just this one canister !)
I probably forgot to retract the cargo scoop (why the hell can´t I boost and only make 130 m/s ???) when thinking, "DAMN they got my thrusters" but didn´t check on the right panel.
Computer voice "can´t compute" (what does she actually say again?)

This all was the result of panic and the lack of routine. (no actually it´s buhuuuuu the AI is too hard, )

And it FELT like seconds, but just when I thought that I remembered people writing this on the forum I kinda woke up and realised that it was actually a minute or two, but I couldn´t do nothing because I didn´t retract the damn cargo scoop. I just watched the shields and hull fade ... The NPCs had enigeenered weapons though. 25mCr rebuy but my 7th overall in 1,5 years, that´s ok.

I am no combat guy (I can actually enjoy this game without hitting the trigger !) but I realise that most of the AI complaints are self-inflicted. With the same Cutter I ran 6D shields now. I am well aware of the risk but I didn´t outfit any weapons, so I don´t even think about intercepting any attacker. DD3 are far enough to escape all of them.

 

[Zambrick]

So in a tricked out cutter that about 10% or less of the game population can afford. Also admitted to screwing up harder than anyone who has less that 30 hours in the game either purposfully or on negligence. Your thinly veiled attempt at sarcasm makes you look even less intelligent than the statement you left. Goodbye.

 

[Sans Daring]

I didn´t read the thread but I can report this:

When my Cutter was destroyed by NPCs (Anaconda and FDL jumped me when I was scavenging in a threat 0 SS) I later realised:
I had 7A shields (only), 2x PDs, Chaff.
Only 2 pips to shields until 25% of shields left.
I waited too long to escape (limpet, bring me just this one canister !)
I probably forgot to retract the cargo scoop (why the hell can´t I boost and only make 130 m/s ???) when thinking, "DAMN they got my thrusters" but didn´t check on the right panel.
Computer voice "can´t compute" (what does she actually say again?)

This all was the result of panic and the lack of routine. (no actually it´s buhuuuuu the AI is too hard, )

And it FELT like seconds, but just when I thought that I remembered people writing this on the forum I kinda woke up and realised that it was actually a minute or two, but I couldn´t do nothing because I didn´t retract the damn cargo scoop. I just watched the shields and hull fade ... The NPCs had enigeenered weapons though. 25mCr rebuy but my 7th overall in 1,5 years, that´s ok.

I am no combat guy (I can actually enjoy this game without hitting the trigger !) but I realise that most of the AI complaints are self-inflicted. With the same Cutter I ran 6D shields now. I am well aware of the risk but I didn´t outfit any weapons, so I don´t even think about intercepting any attacker. DD3 are far enough to escape all of them.

Rep for the honesty.

I suppose one problem is if you're not great at combat, there is an assumption that you should have your ship equipped severely in case of combat. "Why don't you have the shield boosters or hull reinforcements?" Possibly because I like having a good FSD drive and don't want a tank for combat. That said of course, if you're a bucket and a FSD drive, that's daft as well. The answer sits in the middle. If you don't want combat, make sure you've got a ship that can either hold out for a small time, or outrun. I guess Engineers do marginalise that. Prior to 2.1 lore was "get a Cobra because then you can outrun everything". PVP side, not so true now, unless you engineer yourself.

The grounds are more muddy, but common sense should get you through and - as above, honesty. Times I've been destroyed I can pinpoint a moment if I'd done something BETTER, I would have escaped. Even if its harsh, there's a choice there that usually would have given a different outcome if YOU had taken it. I'm sure not always, people hanging outside the mailslot sounds like a log off/comeback later situation from the getgo - if you can spot it.

But by and large, I've found if you're smart, and find that sensible balance, you can escape even if you can't fight off.

 

[Heater]

That in itself is the issue. You tested using a ship that the large majority of the community cannot afford yet. You also tested using Min Max Build specifications. Again not something people with less than 100 hours would know. You also tested using the best possible engineer mods. This "Test" was set under the most optimum conditions using the best of everything available to you. It really wasn't a test at all as there was no control group.

If you wanted to really test it and prove the point, then remove all the mods and do the same fight again. It will be different story I assure you. Especially if your opponent is running mods.

So it really wasn't a practical test. It was a test for someone who has 3 to 5 hundred hours in the game and lots of time to grind out materials. Do the same test in an A rated vulture or Cobra. You may still survive but your shields will be gone and you have a good chunk of your hull missing.

As for the shooting fish in a barrel NPC analogy I find that crap. The NPCs dont have to pay attention to any of the ships limitations. They can go faster turn quicker and never have to stop firing regardless to the ship type. Unless you have some sort of Engineered shields Especially if you are combat Dangerous or above , then I would say the NPCs have given me more trouble than any player. Even the ones running Pure Shield Booster builds. The only thing that is making the Player "Better" at combat is the Heat Cascade mods and shield Mods. They sure dont fly any better.

Once Heat cascade gets nerfed or removed there will be a bunch of threads on how NPCs are too hard again and I cant kill other players instantly anymore.

Kind of missing the point, if you can't afford the build that you need to survive then would it not be smarter to stay will a smaller ship you can afford? with this said, if you want to take the risk, then you need to accept the consequences of said risk. As I stated in the original post it's about the choices you make, and the "test" was to show him the difference based on the choice he made for his config.

 

[Privata]

From the manual of TieFighter : ''Never fly in a straight line''

 

[kilowolf]

It's not just outfitting. I in my own experience I have noticed that I was getting killed in seconds by most NPCs past expert rank no matter my build even in a A rated Vulture. But as soon as I started using engineers I have yet to die again. And i'm sorry but that is stupid. Engineers was said to be optional but it really is not and the grinding for rolls is the single most annoying thing in the game when I should be able to buy most of the things used. But you can't, because engineers. =/

 

[Mohrgan]

I've been avoiding the Engineers content. I have just, two days ago stopped, at my first base. I have found that many of the higher ranked NPC's can offer a real fight but, my non-engineered FAS has served very well. I don;t believe engineering your gear is essential.

I am reminded of a truism: Some times you eat the b'ar, and sometimes the b'ar eats you. One, or even ten, encounters can't lay claim to be demonstrating the game as a whole. I was swamped in a CZ recently. Even though I have run this drill any number of times, this one occurrence caught me slack-jawed, and I was ejected. I would rather not have that one moment define my build or ability.