Yep... +1 for VR PLS...
Allow the VR '2D screen' to be disabled?
- Thread starter VR Golgot
- Start date
I reckon the short story is:
- They'd want to provide a full spread of control options, using both classic and motion controller (for comfort and player choice). That's the current industry norm. (As a released product, Sansar supports both systems, for example).
- Even classic control schemes alone could constitute a notable slice of dev. (Sorting UI / limiting animation discomfort for interactions & transitions etc)
- Adding motion controller options adds a ton more dev. (With PvP a thing, they'd need to show where players are aiming with handheld weapons. As it's not a cartoony product, they'd want those hands to have arms, which mean IK rigging etc. That's just one example of how the dev work could cascade...)
- The are a lot more units to be shifted in the 2D market than the VR one. So they're not calving off a chunk of devs to tackle the above. They're going '2D first'...
For practicality's sake I'm trying to focus on a 'What can be done with the current low level of VR support?' angle. Seems the best we can pitch for at the moment ¯\(ツ)/¯
This seems like the most sensible approach I've heard so far, not too heavy an ask (I imagine the logic to switch to the 2D screen was actually more work) and one that's a really cheap win for FDev in general. It's almost an experimental feature flag for the VR obsessives (of which I am definitely one). VR kept me interested in elite beyond my initial ~20 hours and I've spent an extra ~450 hours exclusively in, and due to, VR. Honestly, Elite is a semi-religious experience in VR and nothing else comes close.
I've played a ton of GTA V with a somewhat janky but impressive VR mod implementation (driving is incredible with a wheel for those that haven't tried it!) which uses mouse + keyboard / control pad for on-foot sections and works surprisingly well after a small adjustment period. If I can handle that with it's non-native stereo renderer and constant manual camera resets then I don't think I'd struggle with elite.
+1.
I've played a ton of GTA V with a somewhat janky but impressive VR mod implementation (driving is incredible with a wheel for those that haven't tried it!) which uses mouse + keyboard / control pad for on-foot sections and works surprisingly well after a small adjustment period. If I can handle that with it's non-native stereo renderer and constant manual camera resets then I don't think I'd struggle with elite.
+1.
Cheers! 
Yeah I'd second this for sure. The GTA V (luke ross) mod was where I rounded out my VR legs. If anyone's looking to accustomise themselves to classic smooth turning (& other classic nausea foes like canned animations / involuntary loss of camera control etc), then GTA is a great test bed, if you like the game. (So much content, so tons of motivation to keep playing and trying different things out).
Yeah I'd second this for sure. The GTA V (luke ross) mod was where I rounded out my VR legs. If anyone's looking to accustomise themselves to classic smooth turning (& other classic nausea foes like canned animations / involuntary loss of camera control etc), then GTA is a great test bed, if you like the game. (So much content, so tons of motivation to keep playing and trying different things out).
Yep, that's the one! GTA REAL VR mod link for anyone interested giving it a try. (Also worth pairing with the wheel mod)
I think the worst things about the mod are out of his control: eye swap rendering (swaps which eye to draw every frame to emulate a stereo renderer) is pretty nasty on the stomach and certain actions like getting out of a vehicle can desync the camera position and need a manual recenter. Both of these, thankfully, are not a problem in a native implementation and should be freebies with elites' existing VR implementation.
The control scheme is honestly fine if you can stomach it and I think most people can given a little time.
Yeah the alternating eye solution gets that giant world working, but it's definitely rough. Native VR def the gold standard
EDIT: One fun thing there is that you could also turn it off with a key press. I found it really intriguing to see how certain NPCs really 'came to life' in the scrubby stereoscopic view, compared to headlook alone in 2D. (I think something about the 3D view must tap into key face recognition / expression reading stuff. Certain street NPCs just felt more personable somehow, when they gave you the side-eye over some perceived slight or whatever
)I doubt EDO NPCs would have the same level of detail and animation, but if they tap into any of the same stuff then hanging out in a space bar in VR could be class...
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There's still a question mark over whether a VR cam would actually be anchored to the character in a '2D screen off' scenario, so def one that it'd be great to mess around with in alpha. (I've got a suspicion it wouldn't be, and we'd have to try and use something like the TrackIR trick for first person). Stuff like the native position reset could all be useful though for sure.
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I can't help but think that the turret camera from the SRV would be an excellent place to start for on-foot VR. Try driving around like a maniac when sitting in that and notice how it feels surprisingly comfortable. And you can aim independently of the movement direction, something that is absolutely needed for on-foot movement. You need to be able to strafe, after all.
There might be some tweaking on how to change aiming direction and angle, but I'm looking at my joystick and thinking "Hat to move, just like the thrusters... move stick to aim gun and turn character..." and anything on top of that, well, I have plenty of buttons and axis to go on my HOTAS, still, so... I can't see why it wouldn't work.
But I'm still on the fence with Odyssey, and yes, it's the lack of proper VR that's bothering me. All I want is getting out of my ship on a station, finding a good vantage point, and start shipspotting in full VR. Probably in open if stations are gun-free areas. Player landings are much more interesting to watch than NPC landings.
As is, I'm not getting out of my ship. It's just some holo drone shaped like me that I watch on a screen.
There might be some tweaking on how to change aiming direction and angle, but I'm looking at my joystick and thinking "Hat to move, just like the thrusters... move stick to aim gun and turn character..." and anything on top of that, well, I have plenty of buttons and axis to go on my HOTAS, still, so... I can't see why it wouldn't work.
But I'm still on the fence with Odyssey, and yes, it's the lack of proper VR that's bothering me. All I want is getting out of my ship on a station, finding a good vantage point, and start shipspotting in full VR. Probably in open if stations are gun-free areas. Player landings are much more interesting to watch than NPC landings.
As is, I'm not getting out of my ship. It's just some holo drone shaped like me that I watch on a screen.
I often play VR shooters sitting down because I'm lazy. Not ideal, but it works.I'm an avid VR player and get the arguments that VR motion sickness on movement etc is not always an issue - I played Alyx Half Life all the way through and that is a masterpiece of first person VR implementation - breathtaking!
HOWEVER! How the hell am I expected to fly down to a planet, pootle off in my SRV and then get up from my chair, wander to an are with enough space to duck, aim, shoot, move etc with an Oculus strapped to my head in game?? I think some of the gripes from people are unrealistically ignoring the fact that switching from a seated, immobile, flying/driving game to a fully mobile FP shooter whilst remaining immersed in VR is going to be nigh on impossible.... I can just see me waving my arms around, clattering stuff off my desk and trying to duck slamming my head into the keyboard....
However, the aspiration is awesome.... my only suggestion would be an Alyx like experience with a pause button on arrival to allow a player to get to an area that allows full movement in VR, but that will knacker up playing with friends and also spoil the immersion.
I think the devs have an unenviable task on their hands!
Personally, I'm not bothered about not having legs in VR. My main concern previously was losing the rest of the game from VR. It would be nice if we get legs in VR eventually, but I'm happy for FD to leave it completely alone for a time while they concentrate on the main game. I'm looking forward to vehicles on the new planets, but am not expecting to get out of them much.
You have my support.
While I may never use it, thanks to “seated” VR legs making me sick (I need room scale VR to be comfortable with FPS VR), I wholeheartedly think it should be an option. The more options, the more likely players will be able to find their best VR experience.
Fantastic idea, which I'd fully support. Frontier has really fallen from being a pioneer of early VR to something of an "also ran." Throwing a bone like this to the VR community would not only give us a useful fun entry point to the new functionality of the game, but it would also signal to those of us who have been vital members of the community for years that we haven't been forgotten. Frankly, I felt so frustrated by the direction of game development after Frontier's announcement of space legs, that I haven't logged on to ED in some time (what's the point in putting a lot of time into a game, when the very game mode you cherish, VR, isn't being developed anymore).
This would be just the thing to get me, and other veteran players like me, to get serious about the game again.
This would be just the thing to get me, and other veteran players like me, to get serious about the game again.
+1 sounds good!
Some dumb questions, sorry if already postedI reckon the short story is:
But I'd kinda rather not get too deep into that stuff in this thread
- They'd want to provide a full spread of control options, using both classic and motion controller (for comfort and player choice). That's the current industry norm. (As a released product, Sansar supports both systems, for example).
- Even classic control schemes alone could constitute a notable slice of dev. (Sorting UI / limiting animation discomfort for interactions & transitions etc)
- Adding motion controller options adds a ton more dev. (With PvP a thing, they'd need to show where players are aiming with handheld weapons. As it's not a cartoony product, they'd want those hands to have arms, which mean IK rigging etc. That's just one example of how the dev work could cascade...)
- The are a lot more units to be shifted in the 2D market than the VR one. So they're not calving off a chunk of devs to tackle the above. They're going '2D first'...
For practicality's sake I'm trying to focus on a 'What can be done with the current low level of VR support?' angle. Seems the best we can pitch for at the moment ¯\(ツ)/¯
- For control options, are the only ones for the 'on-foot' Odyssey going to be keyboard and mouse/console or controller ?? Can't imagine using a HOTAS for FPS
- And as far as rigging arms etc, I'm assume that is partially done already for the pancake 'on-foot' characters?, it's not as if we are wearing motion trackers (yet).
- And as far as units go, the only way is up up up for VR, with millions of headsets out there
Some dumb questions, sorry if already posted
I'm going to make it my mission this year to 'corrupt' as many mouse/keyboard FPS players to at least try a FPS in VR (my son is one of them)
- For control options, are the only ones for the 'on-foot' Odyssey going to be keyboard and mouse/console or controller ?? Can't imagine using a HOTAS for FPS
- And as far as rigging arms etc, I'm assume that is partially done already for the pancake 'on-foot' characters?, it's not as if we are wearing motion trackers (yet).
- And as far as units go, the only way is up up up for VR, with millions of headsets out there
- Unknown at the moment, but I'd assume K/M & controller are no-brainers. (And I wouldn't put it past FDev to allow HOTAS control of characters )
- Rigging yes I'd assume, but Inverse Kinematics isn't something they're likely to be using for arms in 2D EDO. (And whether it even uses the same rigging I don't know). The IK stuff is totally do-able ultimately. It's just more dev is all ¯\(ツ)/¯
- Absolutely . But when it comes to PCVR vs PC it's still very much David vs Goliath . (And given FDev have pushed two launch windows already, it's clear they're struggling with 2D EDO as it is, even with all their focus on that alone).
I'm not as cynical as some when it comes to the odds of FDev trying a VR Legs port in earnest. I agree the VR market is still healthy, and I think there are glimmers of interest internally still. (I take the inclusion of ship/SRV VR in EDO as one such glimmer
)But in the meantime we've got to work with what we've got
. (And converting VR heads sounds like a good plan 
)Just migrating this PM exchange with Alec to here:
Yep I agree the thread isn’t super clear. I should probably emphasise that it’s just the stereoscopic render that I’m talking about at the start. [EDIT: This is now done]
IE if support has been maintained for the VR render for ships/SRVs, it should in theory work for the legs sections too. (Even if the legs sections are entirely undesigned for VR use).
The request is for FDev to allow us access to that view, and let us fudge whatever experiences we can from the results.
(There’s a new section at the bottom now that possibly makes that a bit clearer?)
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Yep exactly. (Although I wouldn’t expect a big screen due to their nausea concerns. A small screen sitting within our periphery vision, like the one used on start up, seems more likely).
Sure, there would be no stereo render for the game world at that point. The assumption is that there could be though. (It’s even possible that the devs would be interceding with the 2D panel to stop there being a stereo render of the game world. Given that was the render state just moments before when in ship.)
I’m sure it would be more complicated than: Turn off 2D panel / 'reveal' stereoscopic view of game world. But it seems worth asking whether such a viewing mode would be possible. And whether a discrete way of selecting it could be arranged given the curiousness of current EDOVR support
After that it would be up to us to try and fashion something playable out of it, via approaches like the ones mentioned in the OP:
Any knowledgeable dev or VR heads, please do chip in if you see errors, or other positives / negatives to add
Yep I agree the thread isn’t super clear. I should probably emphasise that it’s just the stereoscopic render that I’m talking about at the start. [EDIT: This is now done
]IE if support has been maintained for the VR render for ships/SRVs, it should in theory work for the legs sections too. (Even if the legs sections are entirely undesigned for VR use).
The request is for FDev to allow us access to that view, and let us fudge whatever experiences we can from the results.
(There’s a new section at the bottom now that possibly makes that a bit clearer?)
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Yep exactly. (Although I wouldn’t expect a big screen due to their nausea concerns. A small screen sitting within our periphery vision, like the one used on start up, seems more likely).
Sure, there would be no stereo render for the game world at that point. The assumption is that there could be though
. (It’s even possible that the devs would be interceding with the 2D panel to stop there being a stereo render of the game world. Given that was the render state just moments before when in ship.)I’m sure it would be more complicated than: Turn off 2D panel / 'reveal' stereoscopic view of game world. But it seems worth asking whether such a viewing mode would be possible. And whether a discrete way of selecting it could be arranged given the curiousness of current EDOVR support
After that it would be up to us to try and fashion something playable out of it, via approaches like the ones mentioned in the OP:
- Third Person: Vanity Cam
- Could be the most comfortable experience.
- Camera view should be able to track with the character.
- (NB the vanity cam is getting adapted to work on foot).
- Not designed for gameplay, but could work for exploring environments.
- First Person: Headlook Solutions
- Opentrack could allow us to use native headlook support(IE TrackIR etc).
- This could be useful if VR headlook doesn't track the character, or if it is tied to the aiming reticule alone [?]
- If EDO has extensive TrackIR settings for FPS gameplay, this could definitely help.
- See these examples from another game: menu options 1 / menu options 2 / gameplay).
- Opentrack could allow us to use native headlook support(IE TrackIR etc).
- First Person: Quality of Life
- If the core game includes no-HUD options for first person gameplay, that could be helpful.
- (Classic on-screen UI tends to appear very close to the face in VR, making it uncomfortable for eye accommodation etc.)
- If the core game includes no-HUD options for first person gameplay, that could be helpful.
Any knowledgeable dev or VR heads, please do chip in if you see errors, or other positives / negatives to add
In conclusion on my comments ... although, a bit like Crank, I'm actually fine with just being able to fly in VR, I have no opposiion at all to the OP's request ... assuming that it's something that Frontier can do relatively easily (and I totally take the point that if we can look around when our POV is positioned on top of a body that's sat in the ship or SRV then why not when it's on a body standing on the ground ... gameplay and nausea issues aside).
Actually this does raise something that I do care quite a lot about ... I wonder if headlook devices will work when we're on foot?
Actually this does raise something that I do care quite a lot about ... I wonder if headlook devices will work when we're on foot?
I definitely hope so, because that would help with this mad plan no end
Want to start a thread asking for this level of head tracking support?
Could be win-win
