Allow use of pre 3.3 Advanced Discovery Scanner

[ThatSmileyGuy]

Sure. While I'd say looking for glowing green gas giants is the high league of cherry picking, don't you think so? Cherry picking never had to be about credits and in a way we're all cherry picking.

I don't think we understand eachother. However i can see the root of this misunderstanding, let me explain. Glowing gas giants have been brought up in this thread however should You re-read the very first post i stated as follows:

...magnificient system is noticeably increased by enforcing players to perform whole scan and gauge whether it's worth staying(and now the important part - not for the credits but for the views). Oddities such as quaternary systems of moons and stars, odd orbits, bodies orbiting very close to eachother.

Take the "GGG"s for all i care. Seen one, seen them all. It's only a texture that changes. Similar applies to credits. With FSS credits are even easier to obtain.
I don't really care for what is in the system. But how it is. Where it is. More on that under next quote.

And that's the point. Take credit cherry picking out for a moment and realize that an unresolved local map means to me what GGGs means to others.

Agreed. Many have stated that they take joy in revealing the map bit by bit. Which is fine. I had the same feeling, bellieve me. FSS reveals everything an aspiring explorer / cherry picker would need to know. Then again for me i don't care for virtual values such as "surface temperature", "atmospherical pressure" since until we get atmospheric landings these mean nothing.
Once again i would bring a concept picture introduced earlier in this thread: (padron me not linking the post proper)[EDIT] LINK

This to me looks like a fair compromise between showing what is in the system and letting players reveal the map. Because, You see what interests me and many players is what is the setup of the planets. Are they straight lines as shown above or maybe there would be a system with quaternary orbits [EDIT]Excellent post by Marx explaining the point. Based on that i could already decide whether i want to spend my time in this system and scan it or move one because there is nothing of interest to me. Say i've already seen thousands of times systems such as shown above. I can at a glance decide to go on. Look for a system that provides something more unique. After thousands of hours in this game You realise that whatever Stellar Forge spits out is nothing remarkable large portion of the time. And the only joy of exploration after this time is finding one unique system every once in a while. One which both You and I agree is very hard to come by in 400 billion star system game. One could argue that, of course, FSS-ing the whole system takes little to no time if You are good enough. Sure thing. FSS is quick to master in that aspect, however a cumulative time spent on this is time not spent moving on, travelling and searching. Which in one session stacks up to minutes if not an hour(depending on the size of generated star system). Add to that growing frustration of finding all mundane systems along the way and still being forced to scan it all because maybe, just maybe, this is the one interesting system.

Taking away something from a game is sometimes just necessary to gain some gameplay in return.

Agreed. However in this case let's be frank more has been added than taken away. There was little to no exploration gameplay previously. FSS feels like a proper scanner.
Then again FSS quickly becomes a very tedious task. Once You've mastered it there's no challenge at all. What is left is a gameplay which is most of the time unrewarding. With most of the star systems being a main star and couple of rocky / metal bodies in a straight line.
Of course maybe we would like some form of ADS to return. But if it's not a "best" solution / game mechanic it's because it's what we've had all these years, gotten used to and have no better idea of a system which would suit exploration gameplay. After all, pardon us, but we are not(guessing, may not apply to everyone) game developers. So we are asking for something we know. And making it optional. Hopefully, balanced.

To sum up this essay of a post, i understand both parties. I've read a lot of these threads. I've spoken with people on Elite discord channel. I've spoken with independent CMDRs. I am biased, not denying, the change affected my gameplay too. But i understand both sides. I just wanted to voice my opinion. However now that we got official response on another thread it seems like FSS is here to stay. To which i can only say "ok". I don't like that but it is a deffinitive answer. One of my main gripes was with FD being so reluctant to speak about anything people would say about changes made to the game(FSS aside). And it took so many threads to get one answer and then the communication cut again. But that's a topic for another thread.

Maybe we want something that is incompatible.
Maybe we want something that appears incompatible.
Saying "we" means nothing to companies. It's their product and they will do what they want after all.
I'm not being hostile but to this:

We both want something that is inherently incompatible and telling otherwise is just false or dishonest.

I can only say that "we" are not game developers. Maybe there is a way to make everyone happy. Maybe it's completely and utterly different from what we've seen introduced to this date.
Anyone claiming otherwise is just false or dishonest.

If You read through the entiriety of this post take this cookie

 

[ThatSmileyGuy]

already took the cooky, hope you don't mind

Of course, of course. Mom's recipe.

 

[Faded Glory]

Then again FSS quickly becomes a very tedious task. Once You've mastered it there's no challenge at all. What is left is a gameplay which is most of the time unrewarding. With most of the star systems being a main star and couple of rocky / metal bodies in a straight line.

Certainly, IMO this is true, the FSS isn't challenging and if the reward is nothing (another rocky / icy uninteresting body - NOT credits), why would I want to spend any time at all looking at it, let alone examining it?

Ironically, after being a completionist explorer under the old system, I've actually started to cherry pick using the FSS. Perhaps because I resent being forced to use the FSS, no matter how quick and easy it is, but also because of the auto-scan issue which means that whatever I do I am leaving my name somewhere on the system, so where before I have looked at a system, decided I didn't want to scan all of, so left the whole system completely untouched, even if there were 'valuable' bodies present, now I just scan those valuable bodies (and whatever else was auto-scanned) and move on.

Of course maybe we would like some form of ADS to return. But if it's not a "best" solution / game mechanic it's because it's what we've had all these years, gotten used to and have no better idea of a system which would suit exploration gameplay. After all, pardon us, but we are not(guessing, may not apply to everyone) game developers. So we are asking for something we know. And making it optional. Hopefully, balanced.

I must say, I personally have never called for or suggested the FSS be removed. I know some people hate it with a vengeance, but I don't. I just feel it should be one of a number of tools that players have to explore, not the only tool.

I certainly agree that any and all tools should be optional so players can choose exactly how they want to explore, that can only add depth and give players varied ways to play the game. I also believe (and have stated many times), that advantages should come at a cost, just as they do for example with weapons, so if players want the benefit of scanning a whole system without the burden of long SC trips they should have to actually use the tool that enables that. Personally, I think something like this simplistic idea could allow that and give players looking for most of the commonly requested different styles of exploration the experience they are looking for...

So, to keep it as simple as possible.

Option 1: A basic system map module providing a targetable map with generic bodies with no identifiable information. This would allow those who either don't care what they are looking for, or want to use their skill and knowledge of the stellar forge to make educated guesses, then target the bodies and fly to them (or subsequently fire up the FSS).

Option 2: A nav panel module that lists all bodies as unexplored and available for targeting. No map view.

Option 3: An advanced system map that provides shape and color information, but which is not targetable. Players can identify things from the map, but must use the FSS to locate and scan them.

Only one map module can be installed in a ship at a time.

Edit: Oh, and please do remove the auto-scan function so that I only have to leave my name on things I actually to want to.

 

[ThatSmileyGuy]

I must say, I personally have never called for or suggested the FSS be removed. I know some people hate it with a vengeance, but I don't. I just feel it should be one of a number of tools that players have to explore, not the only tool.

Same here. Along the course of this thread i have explained numerous time that i do not encourage nor support removal of FSS numerous times.
I completely agree with You. Tools should be selected for the right job. It's strange how a beginner pilot in a sidewinder after just getting their Pilots Federation license can go exploring with a top shelf gear. A thing one would have to gradualy build up to after having decided that exploration is what they would lke to dedicate portiong of their time to prior to the update.

Edit: Oh, and please do remove the auto-scan function so that I only have to leave my name on things I actually to want to.

Or make it toggleable through the new ship UI. We got a lot of spare space in there after all.

 

[lenna]

It's strange how a beginner pilot in a sidewinder after just getting their Pilots Federation license can go exploring with a top shelf gear.

I would not call the FSS top-shelf gear, more like bargain basement kitsch.

It is a basic radio telescope emulator in essence.

 

[ThatSmileyGuy]

I would not call the FSS top-shelf gear, more like bargain basement kitsch.

What i meant by that is that there is no evolution. Equpping the FSS is compulsory. It's embedden in the ship from day one. It gives all information on every body within a system. Which is basicly what one would have to spend ~2 million credits to get the surface and ADS. Now it is not a role one picks but rather a "backup" role everyone can always pefrorm even if their ship is sutied for different tasks such as combat.
To me the best analogy is giving everyone an electron microscope. You might not do anything in the study of science but there You have it. Top notch equipment. You can always make use of it.

 

[Riverside]

What i meant by that is that there is no evolution. Equpping the FSS is compulsory. It's embedden in the ship from day one. It gives all information on every body within a system. Which is basicly what one would have to spend ~2 million credits to get the surface and ADS. Now it is not a role one picks but rather a "backup" role everyone can always pefrorm even if their ship is sutied for different tasks such as combat.
To me the best analogy is giving everyone an electron microscope. You might not do anything in the study of science but there You have it. Top notch equipment. You can always make use of it.

If you are suggesting that there is scope for a premium priced optional module that provides top level information in addition to the FSS's 'what', for example by providing the 'where' and 'what it looks like' I'd agree. It would only be of use to dedicated exploration in unknown territory and would generally allow the dedicated explorer more ways to explore.

I think it would be quite popular.

 

[dxm55]

Here's the thing why the FSS lovers don't want the ADS back, even if the two could live side by side.

Because even though they have a choice to use the more "interesting" FSS, they hate the idea that the players who use the ADS will have an easier time. Thus outpacing them in exploration.

That's just what it is. As much as people would like to justify things, they just simply don't like it when others have an easier life than them.
They want ppl to play the game their way.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Here's the thing why the FSS lovers don't want the ADS back, even if the two could live side by side.

Because even though they have a choice to use the more "interesting" FSS, they hate the idea that the players who use the ADS will have an easier time. Thus outpacing them in exploration.

That's just what it is. As much as people would like to justify things, they just simply don't like it when others have an easier life than them.
They want ppl to play the game their way.

Some maybe like that. Personally I just think the ADS makes the game look cheap. Now it's gone, the game looks better, add I back and it cheapens the game again. Sure I could live with it being there, but I would certainly prefer it if it wasn't.

 

[dxm55]

Some maybe like that. Personally I just think the ADS makes the game look cheap. Now it's gone, the game looks better, add I back and it cheapens the game again. Sure I could live with it being there, but I would certainly prefer it if it wasn't.

Not you perhaps. But it is, as evidence by some people here who said that the ADS would render the FSS useless.
In short. They like the FSS and want to use it. But don't want others using the ADS as it allows them an easier time.

Envy. Jealousy.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Not you perhaps. But it is, as evidence by some people here who said that the ADS would render the FSS useless.
In short. They like the FSS and want to use it. But don't want others using the ADS as it allows them an easier time.

Envy. Jealousy.

If it was built into the FSS, then it would render some of the FSS functionality useless, such as find planets/moons yourself when your ship has already found them.

As to it being easier. Parts were easier and some parts not as easy. Getting a system map was a doddle, getting tags was more time consuming. Now getting the system map is more time consuming and getting some tags is much faster, but getting mapped tags is somewhat longer then the old tags in the old version.

 

[Riverside]

If it was built into the FSS, then it would render some of the FSS functionality useless, such as find planets/moons yourself when your ship has already found them.

As to it being easier. Parts were easier and some parts not as easy. Getting a system map was a doddle, getting tags was more time consuming. Now getting the system map is more time consuming and getting some tags is much faster, but getting mapped tags is somewhat longer then the old tags in the old version.

Getting the system map isn't the reward for discovering a system though, otherwise it would be obscured in all unvisited systems. The reward (that the game offers) is the money (unchanged or better than before) or the tags (much easier to achieve than before as you say, and with an extra tag to get in existing systems too).

They are tools to do a job, and getting things done with tools is the gameplay not the tools themselves. There is no gameplay in a manifest scanner, nor does there need to be. Finding out the contents of the cargo hold, then acting on that information gathered is the gameplay.

I can see why people like the DSS, it re-invigorates the idea of discovery for those that didn't like the old stuff.

Nevertheless, it doesn't matter to one explorer how another explorer discovers things, and the idea that there is some balancing or technical reason why the old stuff went away is facile.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Getting the system map isn't the reward for discovering a system though, otherwise it would be obscured in all unvisited systems. The reward (that the game offers) is the money (unchanged or better than before) or the tags (much easier to achieve than before as you say, and with an extra tag to get in existing systems too).

I would prefer it if it was obscurred in all systems. But as I understand it, they added it in as a compromise for those that want to travel fast to unexplored systems.

They are tools to do a job for me, and getting things done with tools is the gameplay not the tools themselves. There is no gameplay in a manifest scanner, nor does there need to be. Finding out the contents of the cargo hold, then acting on that information gathered is the gameplay.

Manifest scanner is no really the same as finding every single object in a solar system. But yes they are tools and so is the FSS. No reason why tools can't have gameplay themselves. Weapons are tools and they provide combat gameplay. Your ship is also a tool and provide plenty of gameplay.

I can see why people like the DSS, it re-invigorates the idea of discovery for those that didn't like the old stuff.

The new DSS could be better though. There isn't really a reason to use it on some planets that isn't just tags and credits. More reasons to probe planets would be much better in my view.

Nevertheless, it doesn't matter to one explorer how another explorer discovers things, and the idea that there is some balancing or technical reason why the old stuff went away is facile.

I don't know if there is a technical reason or not. As to balancing, it doesn't bother me that much, it's the lore reasons what I don't like. For me the lore in ED is very important, the more they make it not make any sense the worse the game gets (galaxy wide telepresence I am looking at you). Just like a story in a story based game, if the story becomes silly and doesn't make sense, I would end up giving up on the game no matter how good the mechanics are. But thats just my opinion.