Engineers An even simpler streamline for Engineers! Cutting a whole level of faff out, with very minor changes.

[NeilF]

it's never been that and I apologise if it's felt that way - it's just been "You are choosing to make this miserable for yourself, you may be little the tail wag the dog"

You've stopped playing because you don't want to take part much in a .1 release of some new features to a game, none of which you have to do. There's no "you're worthy", just seeing other bits of game at worst rather than just one bit repeatedly - a stated goal of the devs for some time.

I like different - but you are telling the devs they are wrong, that the tail is the most important part - that until you can eat solely coleslaw all day and not feel sick you refuse to join in the banquet. Choosing to do something in an onerous manner is not "wrong", it's just not fun as so many posts attest.

I am saying, IMHO:-
1) The Engineers is a poor addition to the game. It in truth adds nothing in the way of new gameplay, and certaily none of note, interest or depth. The only thing it in truth adds is crafting, such that we can go about exactly what we were doing before but now with X% more pewpew, or Y% better jumping range. I don't see that personally as worth all the development time invested (at the expense of more interesting alternatives) - But this is another topic.
2) Worse still, some of us find the mechanics they have added as onerous, so worse still, it makes even the only carrot on the stick (crafting with the Engineers) such a "chore," it's counter productive.

We can't get back the development time for The Engineers. I'd not like to see loads more thrown at it. I find it clunky at best at the moment. Hence the suggested of a couple of minor changes to make it more accessible (not easier).


(1) Has just made me even more cynical about FD's development ideas - not having seen much in the way of the game now moving forwards in a year, with development after development seeingly dedicated to questionable goals. (2) Has compounded that into just making me give up the game. ie: I'm enjoying it less given the "new thing" (crafting) is behind such layers of inane faff.

 

[frostypaw]

The only thing it in truth adds is crafting, such that we can go about exactly what we were doing before but now with X% more pewpew, or Y% better jumping range.

That and loot was all it actually promised. Some have read that as "whole new missions and gameplay options to get loot - and crafting" - I don't think it was ever described in such a way. I might be wrong

Same gameplay, extra loot. Trying to circumvent the first to accelerate getting the second so people can get the third is what's causing the misery and while understandable it's spoiling your fun

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

That is all nonsense and too much work. I'll finally fix it for you:

In communications you type this command: /iwin name_of_module

Result is a replacement module in your current ship, grade 5 and best possible roll.

100% customer satisfaction guaranteed, because even those who would like to work for their module still can and are not forced, well not officially forced, to type this.

seeing as its fathers day - why don't you take a day off and stop being a male reproductive organ?

 

[NeilF]

Same gameplay, extra loot. Trying to circumvent the first to accelerate getting the second so people can get the third is what's causing the misery and while understandable it's spoiling your fun

Not sure I fully understand that statement?

Same gamplay, extra loot - Agreed... and agreed...

Trying to circumvent the first? - If you're suggesting that people are trying to circumvent the same old gameplay, then no. The suggestion is people are not happy about be forced - given how poor the new gameplay elements are - into doing gameplay that they don't enjoy. Maybe a CMDR doesn't enjoy a gameplay element, and never has. Given the Engineers has simply added some pretty thin new gameplay elements, and they've certainly not really added interest or depth anywhere, so what's to be gained with forcing CMDRs into the areas they were never interested before?

accelerate getting the second? - Get loot quicker? No suggestion of that?

so people can get the third is what's causing the misery? - Third is crafting? Nope, no suggestion of that...


I can't keep explaining my POV over and over. And I don't pretent to speak for anyone else here. But I suspect given how poor many people see the new Engineers gameplay, that they want to it be relaxed such that they are free to go about playing the game in more the way they want, handing in materials in a more relaxed way, in a simpler fashion, so ultimately they can level up and craft in a more laid back style. This isn't a cry to make it faster to level up or craft, but simply a suggestion that given how vapid some find the new mechanics, it's a request to be less exposed to them.

The suggestion in the OP is an attempt to achieve this with minimal changes to the game. I certainly wouldn't care if leveling up and crafting took longer... I just want the Engineers to be in the "background", instead of in the "foreground" of the game.

With that suggestion, every few weeks, when my materials have nearly maxed out, I can do the simpler task of going to my prefered Engineers, donate my materials on-mass, my reputation will increase, job done. I don't have to be any more concerned about it than that... Because, at the moment, it doesn't deserve it IMHO.

This is where some folks may suggest, well how's that difficult? It's not... And why should it be... I'm trying to play the game, not dedicate myself to The Engineers; Its mechanics are generally vapid and dull, so don't need "highlighting"... Instead they need to be toned down to blend into the existing game so they become a perk, rather than any form of faff!

 

[frostypaw]

I'm trying to play the game, not dedicate myself to The Engineers...

Lol. Ironic under the circumstances. You're not gated from anything, it is a background element but not intended as free rewards for time played either, but instead to get cmdrs to try more things and do more. Stated purpose achieved

 

[Viking84]

...but instead to get cmdrs to try more things and do more. Stated purpose achieved

Well, it gets us to try more, realise we don't like it, feel like we are locked out of content due to bad design decisions, and then ultimately leave the game. Pretty sure that wasn't the intended outcome But you are right, what the devs said they wanted to create and what they created are pretty much as you describe. I think they might have underestimated how many people would dislike this design though!

But the devs know all this, because they have all the statistics necessary to see who is actually using the Engineers. If the numbers are as abysmal as the Power Play ones I would not be surprised if things will change in the near future, but then again I have been wrong on at least one occasion earlier, so it is plausible I could be wrong again

 

[Sylow]

That and loot was all it actually promised. Some have read that as "whole new missions and gameplay options to get loot - and crafting" - I don't think it was ever described in such a way. I might be wrong

Actually the engineers using missions was part of the concept and was only cut out shortly before the beta.

We don't know the details, as it never hit beta, but we know that missions were an integral part of the concept. Only shortly before the beta they realized that what they wanted to do would have taken a little more time. This was stated in the beta forums, but also in one of the lifestream. (The wording was "a few more weeks" in the beta forum, the exact info in the lifestreams you can look up yourself if you like to. )

Next to that, my big problem still is with the RNG. I know that some people here still religiously preach "just pray and you get what you need". This is simply not true, as a number of materials can only be obtained from very specific sources.

In other games the concept would be that if you want to get those materials, you have to dedicate effort to get them. This would be fine for me, things are different here. In this game, the concept is that if you want to get those materials, you have to dedicate effort to perhaps get them, or to also very likely waste hours and get nothing. I know you will disbelieve, but there are enough threads around (by now abandoned, as people gave up), where people asked where to get stuff.

My personal prime example: chemical manipulators. Both the game and people give the advise to kill transport ships. In more detail, Haulers and T6/7/9. Some people in the thread report that they killed three ships and had what they needed. Other people reported to have been killing the very same type of ships, in the same places (same system, same nav beacon) for several hours and got nothing. This is an inherent problem of the system of "low quantities needed, low drop chance".

That's a mechanic which i know very well from cheaply made asia grinders, which i for exactly this reason (disrespecting my time, being dull and tedious instead of fun) stopped playing.

The OPs suggestion is just one of many. My prefered alternative still would be to use missions for the engineer stuff. Unfortunately while that would be awesome fun, it won't happen... if they didn't have time for fun and quality before the release, don't expect it to be better now.

For some parts of the randomizer a different approach could work: each and any hauler drops one chemical manipulator, T6 drop three, T7 five and T9 ten of them. And you need not one, but 15 of them for one crafting process. That would eliminate the random there, while not reducing the average effort. But while this would work for ship-based drops, it still doesn't work for the whole "drive the SRV, get a random material" problem, unless all meteorites now also drop all materials, just at varying quantities. (Which actually might be a viable option, now that i think about it. )

 

[NeilF]

Lol. Ironic under the circumstances. You're not gated from anything, it is a background element but not intended as free rewards for time played either, but instead to get cmdrs to try more things and do more. Stated purpose achieved

"instead to get cmdrs to try more things and do more" - By adding vapid, unchallenging game elements to parts of the game some CMDR's already don't enjoy? Purpose achieved? ie: Nothing is achieved by just making CMDRs go to a mechanic they don't already enjoy, to spend time rolling dice until an appropriate number comes up. There is nothing clever, intelligent or challenging about this. If they didn't enjoy if before, loading it with even more inane gameplay won't help.

Anyway, I've explained enough times... You can't understand, or I'm failing to get the point over... Eitherway it's a waste of time continuing.

 

[Starender]

You collect materials (as currently) - Ideally a reduced list of them...

Engineers are interested in certain materials for their crafting, so you can give any materials you have to them (that they're interested in). This will increase your reputation with them. Common materials increase your reputation a bit. Rare materials more so.

As your reputation increases, higher level crafting is offered to you.

When ever you craft, you lose some reputation, in effect as payment.

That's it!

You can collect any material(s) an Engineer is interested in to level up and pay for crafting. Done!




If you want to skew the Wheel Of Fortune roll in your favour, then you have the option to additionally supply some specific materials to do that (akin to now). Likewise, if you want to dictate a specific side effect.

Done!




Result
A very small set of changes, for a very much simpler combined level up and payment system giving a simpler mechanic.

The desire is not to make it quicker to level up & craft, but simply to make it less of a full time consideration. Indeed, personally if it took even longer to increase my reputation via this method, I wouldn't mind, as I could do it more casually. In effect simply visiting the engineers periodically too drop off materials to level up as a side quest.



Example of actual changes:-

Spoiler

Change 1 - Handing in Materials
When you go to an Engineer you can go to a new screen to "donate" any materials you have which they are interested in (each Engineer is different).

It would show you a list of any/all materials you have they are interested in. Give an indication next to each how much reputation giving it to the Engineer would add (common less/rares more). And allow you to click any/all of these materials with the net effect showing your reputation with them going up.

Change 2 - Paying for Crafting
Crafting would simply reduce your reputation, depending upon the crafting level. So on the crafting screen, a simple graphic would show your reputations, and how much the selected crafting would reduce it.


Note1: The additional suggestions of allowing a CMDR to supply specific materials to skew the dice rolls for the module outcome, or dictate a side effect were already proposed by FD.

Note2: I would suggest removing "cargo" materials.

At this point i would gladly take this, instead of what we have right now. But i would prefer to erase RNG from upgrade once and for all.

 

[NeilF]

At this point i would gladly take this, instead of what we have right now. But i would prefer to erase RNG from upgrade once and for all.

Yes, I've not talked about The Wheel Of Fortune at all really in the OP... That's another matter



Personally, I think the suggestion in the OP is unfortunately a complete waste of time (even though I think it would make The Engineers more palatable), as all FD will do is spawn more materials, more often, more easily, until it stops enough people from complaining about it. At that point it will be considered, a "successful mechanic".

 

[Flin]

I don't think the suggestion is a waste of time.

It would be interesting to use Engineers as a marketplace for non-commodity materials. They are the most interested in these materials and have their own agendas and goals for these.

And using reputation as a currency is also a good extension. There are certain things credits can't buy.

Half-jokingly, let call this Engineer Play, get it?

 

[Jypson]

You've got my support OP! The current method of finding mats is tedious, plain and simple. It's not intelligent, it's not engaging, it's shoehorned tedium en masse.

Play your own way!.....unless you want to take part in "Engineers" [rolleyes]

 

[tarragon]

Where can we sign you up to be the assistent lead designer? Can't rep you any more but great idea. Edit: and I mean this ... Love the idea.

It is a good idea. It is always easy to suggest an improvement, if the original system was thought out by burnt out person, who doesn't have a clue any longer and no longer enjoys designing good games.
The gui and core components are all ok, it is the execution and attention to detail and actual "game" that doesn't work and never worked in this game.

 

[Mephane]

Good idea OP. It would also diminish the burden by the far too rare materials while still leaving them in as a rare chance at a huge chunk of reputation then.

 

[Sashenka]

I'm always up for new ideas on how to improve the Engineers and I like your idea OP. Current system feels like some cheap F2P phone game upgrade system. The only thing missing is the Premium currency, we already got the casino roll animations and Try Again button.

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

+1 to this intelligent and elegant solution.

Why can't FD think things through a bit more; maybe they should of asked the community ( ala DDF ) before they set the model in stone rather than having to make adjustments to a system on the fly.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

I am CMDR Cosmic Spacehead, and I approve of this message!

+1

Me likey.

 

[Stahlkopp]

Although I see some potential in OP's suggestion, it's not complex enough for my taste.

Way too easy, no challenge at all.

 

[NE1]

Although I see some potential in OP's suggestion, it's not complex enough for my taste.

Way too easy, no challenge at all.

If you want to skew the Wheel Of Fortune roll in your favour, then you have the option to additionally supply some specific materials to do that (akin to now). Likewise, if you want to dictate a specific side effect.

Above would be used and allow no change in play-style, and would only require some kind enforced play-style on players if they wanted 'specials'.

 

[Stahlkopp]

Above would be used and allow no change in play-style, and would only require some kind enforced play-style on players if they wanted 'specials'.

The upgrades are significant enough even without experimental effects.