PvP An Investigation Into Frontier's Actions on Combat Logging, Part 2

[Madrax573]

So if someone in a country with crap interwebs (regional australia for ex) who often gets dropouts is caught out once in a pvp situation that warrants a ban?

Hmmm......

Devils advocate here

Nice test and building a scenario to present to FDev but,

From what I've seen 5 logs in 5 months is easily in the realms of random drops etc and to be perfectly honest I wouldn't want Fdev wasting time on such 'offenders'

Now of course if you record someone deliberately clogging 5 times in a hour trying to break a blocked you guys are doing, very different scenario IMO.

And lets face it, it's a game, there will always be people gaming the system so the odd random drop/clog isn't going to kill it really.

Target the serial offenders and then present an full case to FDev and see what they say. For small fry with the odd dropout/clog FDev have way more important things to be working on IMO.

 

[Ian Skippy]

So if someone in a country with crap interwebs (regional australia for ex) who often gets dropouts is caught out once in a pvp situation that warrants a ban?

Hmmm......

Devils advocate here

Nice test and building a scenario to present to FDev but,

From what I've seen 5 logs in 5 months is easily in the realms of random drops etc and to be perfectly honest I wouldn't want Fdev wasting time on such 'offenders'

Now of course if you record someone deliberately clogging 5 times in a hour trying to break a blocked you guys are doing, very different scenario IMO.

And lets face it, it's a game, there will always be people gaming the system so the odd random drop/clog isn't going to kill it really.

Target the serial offenders and then present an full case to FDev and see what they say. For small fry with the odd dropout/clog FDev have way more important things to be working on IMO.

If a person spends on average 10% of time in combat, and every disconnects happens in combat, you dont need to be a statistician to see something is up.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

Guess it doesn't really matter - they're only relevant to themselves. If they mass-quit, I'd never know it.

I doubt we'd ever be so lucky.
It matters when they affect other players, this game doesn't do enough to protect the new players but hopefully that will be addressed soon.

 

[Madrax573]

If a person spends on average 10% of time in combat, and every disconnects happens in combat, you dont need to be a statistician to see something is up.

I agree but it's still the difference in potential and intent that the so called karma system is looking at.

Where some of the above posts claiming that a single occurrence should result in a ban just allows for a much maligned system that would just put even more people off from being in open etc.

the tech doesn't allow for server control and still have the 'twitch' aspect to the game.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

Who set that threshold? Please show official Frontier documentation to support that threshold. It must clearly state the threshold as being one singular offence.

Failing to do so negates all credibility, past, present and future.



At this point, I am fining this entire topic to be offensive. (BOO-HOO)

The bottom line is, the rules are Frontier's rules, and they can choose to enforce them, ignore them or change them, at any time, with or without notice, with or without the consent of anyone here, including backers, lifetime expansion pass holders or anyone with a sense of entitlement.

It's their game, not yours, not mine, not anyone else's who isn't on the Frontier payroll.

Don't like that, the door is over there --->

Did you really PUBLICALLY just say you were OK with FDev doing whatever they like, how they like, whenever they like REGARDLESS of how it affects the playerbase ON WHICH THIER INCOME RELIES?**

also I'm guessing you didnt read this thread:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/398068-Guys-You-know-what-I-really-want

oh wait - you did here's you're response: (that has been strangeley left alone by the moderators)

These sort of posts are just about as helpful as Wind Bags (flaming). If they haven't fixed your personal pet peeve yet and you can't stand it, go play something else (baiting) and check back quarterly to see if they've done That Thing you've been waiting for all this time. Go back to Eve and grind your Isk and skill points (baiting), or send Chris Roberts a blank check and wait for Star Citizen to be cancelled. (baiting)

(moderate that!)

and my answer to your request:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/398068-Guys-You-know-what-I-really-want

read the bit where it says "combat log" SINGULAR. Inferring ONCE.

There is NO LANGUAGE used by Sandro that suggests "please do not combat log multiple times" or "players who continually combat log will be dealt with".

quote: "At some point, however, we will start to take action against Commanders using this exploit. I can only suggest that you should avoid using this exploit if you want to avoid any penalties issued for its use. "

SINGULAR verbiage - the words "often / repeatedly / regularly / repetitively / ongoing / concurrently / frequently, many times, many a time, on many/numerous occasions, a lot, in many cases/instances, again and again, time and again, time and time again, time after time, over and over, over and over again, day in, day out, week in, week out, all the time, recurrently, continually, usually, habitually, commonly.... (there's more)

are not used, ANYWHERE in the entire "official statement."

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/?t=105778

In law - OMMISSION of language is just as relevent as PRESENCE of language.


** Even FDev are not that stupid - otherwise "Beyond" wouldn't be happening.

Edit: BTW Indigo - if you pay for a product under bais of certain conditions like "content" and that content doesn't then appear - then yes you are "entitled" - it may surprise you to learn there are ACTUAL LAWS THAT SAY YOU ARE ENTITLED.

just in case you missed that small and relevent FACT.

Or go and talk to a representative of "Hello Games" and the tens of thousands of refunds they had to issue when No Man's Sky was launched.

Or FDev when they issued thousands of refunds for "offlinegate".

 

[Rafe Zetter]

I agree but it's still the difference in potential and intent that the so called karma system is looking at.

Where some of the above posts claiming that a single occurrence should result in a ban just allows for a much maligned system that would just put even more people off from being in open etc.

the tech doesn't allow for server control and still have the 'twitch' aspect to the game.

Not quite - FDev have said that measures would be taken to remind players that combat logging is an exploit. They have said that first ocurrences would generate a warning, with it escalating from there.

What SDC has done has proven that FDev have not followed up on issuing so much as a warning to the offender let alone a ban.

They have as much as admitted, by omission of action, they have no interest in enforcing what they stated regarding CL.

reminder: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/?t=105778

 

[Stealthie]

If a person spends on average 10% of time in combat, and every disconnects happens in combat, you dont need to be a statistician to see something is up.

If a person is determined to CL whenever necessary it's probably not beyond their wit to also task-kill rather than logging out once in a while in order to undermine accusations of deliberate CLing.

 

[Stealthie]

I knew about it and people discussed about it on teamspeak, never participated in it fearing I would get my account banned. In fact I don't take part in obvious broken exploits because I wouldn't want to see my progress go to waste.

Then it's rather unfortunate that you decided to keep quiet about it and present the appearance of a clique who wished to keep an exploit to themselves rather than expose the exploit in a manner that SDC seems to enjoy doing - but only when it becomes convenient to do so, I guess.

 

[Bortas]

I agree but it's still the difference in potential and intent that the so called karma system is looking at.

And when is this mythical karma system coming? I've seen it mentioned maybe a year ago for the first time. Next year a C&P overhaul is coming... A karma system was not mentioned in the proposals.

So when is it supposed to land? Maybe 2019? Or is it just vaporware just like the official statement that they would act against cloggers?

 

[lokvette]

Well im shocked, a company says one thing but does another.

People really need to move on, no one cares least of all the very people who are ment to, even if one of their CM's jumps in to give the party line about how much they do care.

Me? Nah mate dont give a two bob bit about CL, cheats only cheat themselves let em get on with it.

 

[Madrax573]

Not quite - FDev have said that measures would be taken to remind players that combat logging is an exploit. They have said that first ocurrences would generate a warning, with it escalating from there.

What SDC has done has proven that FDev have not followed up on issuing so much as a warning to the offender let alone a ban.

They have as much as admitted, by omission of action, they have no interest in enforcing what they stated regarding CL.

reminder: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/?t=105778

Or FDev have realised you are setting them up and just ignored the submission?!?!

I can play a pretty good DA

 

[Madrax573]

And when is this mythical karma system coming? I've seen it mentioned maybe a year ago for the first time. Next year a C&P overhaul is coming... A karma system was not mentioned in the proposals.

So when is it supposed to land? Maybe 2019? Or is it just vaporware just like the official statement that they would act against cloggers?

I have no idea when it's coming tbh and quite frankly couldn't give a hoot.... But constant calling out of the devs won't win you an favours from them.

No actually finding the persistent cloggers and presenting legit evidence to the fore not THAT is more likely to get attention.

Setting up 5 'drops' over the course of 5 months is just nothing in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Zeeman]

Since switching from TPG to Telstra, my connection has become very stable (but still extremely slow).
Even so, I only started looking into PvP once my connection had improved, before that I was a private group explorer+trader.

We're on Telstra...

My dad's place, on the other hand, that has a 100mbps fibre line, is flawless. I never had a single drop out for the time I had my rig set up there. It's also TPG...

The main issue is the Govt's decision to use poor technologies in the roll out, and now we all suffer. I can't even get through an episode of a TV show on Netflix most nights without a disconnect, it's extremely frustrating.

Whilst I play in open, PvP is a big fear for my right now, as I would not expect to get through a fight without a disconnect, I'd probably be starting off all encounters with a message of warning, and a willingness to meet back up to continue should I get DC.

As I said though, it's a toughie, very hard to prove who has a good connection, and who is hitting that magical button combo on their KB (or, in some cases, wouldn't surprise me to see it mapped to a HOTAS binding vis software).

Z...

 

[Red Anders]

I live in a real world, so the above made me laugh.

Not sure why, perhaps you had difficulty with the fact I was talking about what should happen.

In both the real world and gaming we both know that what should happens doesn't always actually happen; in fact that's the only reason this thread exists.

If you meant something else, I'd be fascinated to know what it was.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

Well im shocked, a company says one thing but does another.

People really need to move on, no one cares least of all the very people who are ment to, even if one of their CM's jumps in to give the party line about how much they do care.

Me? Nah mate dont give a two bob bit about CL, cheats only cheat themselves let em get on with it.

and the people who want to legitimately play a "pirate" - and the game itself as they can CL against NPC's too - a player may never need to worry about a rebuy ever again.

EVER.

Quite the bonus for players with expensive ships.

Got a problem with Thargoids? CL.

Elite: Combat Log if anything Dangerous comes along. Might as well remove Thargoids, NPC's & Open / groups.

Everyone can stop worryong about engineering thier sheilds, just run with basic sheilds or non at all and keep the task window running in the background - first sign of trouble, CL & relog back in.

 

[Madrax573]

Just out of curiosity for you dedicated PvP'ers. How much % wise do you think you get cloggers?

As an outsider who happily engages in PvP if the opportunity arises but doesn't go looking for it I have only ever seen a single disconnect (no idea if they clogged.) So what I see is a lot of shouting about it being a major problem yet it is horribly short on evidence. If it is such a big issue then there should be nothing but clogging evidence filling up FDev's inbox.

If not then is it really a problem? Or is it just a challenge to FDev vs their statement about it being an ban able exploit?

 

[Rafe Zetter]

Or FDev have realised you are setting them up and just ignored the submission?!?!

I can play a pretty good DA

How would they know?

SDC have just highlighted their own attempts - but only made it public 6 MONTHS later, and it was 6 MONTHS since their previous attempts.

and it still remains that if you set a "rule" and do not enforce it, you then set a precedent that from henceforth - you can NEVER enforce it, and if you do that person has the right of challenging that decision.

It happens all the time in law. It's either enforced or it isn't, there's no "middle ground".

Thats why in some states in the USA that have a 3 strikes rule for crimes - you can do 2 major crimes and the 3rd, HOWEVER MINOR, including traffic violations or petty theft like shoplifting will get you sent to jail FOR LIFE.**




**(Some people think thats too harsh - but fact is if you committed 2 crimes before and live in a 3 strikes state - you were warned, and its your own bloody fault.)

 

[Maka Gucci]

Just out of curiosity for you dedicated PvP'ers. How much % wise do you think you get cloggers?

As an outsider who happily engages in PvP if the opportunity arises but doesn't go looking for it I have only ever seen a single disconnect (no idea if they clogged.) So what I see is a lot of shouting about it being a major problem yet it is horribly short on evidence. If it is such a big issue then there should be nothing but clogging evidence filling up FDev's inbox.

If not then is it really a problem? Or is it just a challenge to FDev vs their statement about it being an ban able exploit?

The problem is if you are the type to not going looking for PvP, then you would be the one clogging, and since you aren't, and the person who was looking for PvP isn't you won't have seen it often.

If you look for PvP you'll get two types of common cloggers, ones who are down to fight till they start losing and then when they realise they might have left it too late to jump, log (most annoying). The other type being those who just don't want none and start trying to jump straight away, but you take their shields down and they freak out, logging.

It is an issue.

Spoiler

Before people get on at me for shooting cmdrs who "don't want none", I am as fair as it gets.
I'll be in an enemy capital and if I see haulers going *to* a station I know they don't have fast tracks on 'em, so I interdict and auto-hotkey a message that like "Stop! Im not here to kill you ... Send your combat pilots to defend their turf".. But, if you are hauling to an expansion target, well thanks for playing in Open but I'm tryna take you out.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

Just out of curiosity for you dedicated PvP'ers. How much % wise do you think you get cloggers?

As an outsider who happily engages in PvP if the opportunity arises but doesn't go looking for it I have only ever seen a single disconnect (no idea if they clogged.) So what I see is a lot of shouting about it being a major problem yet it is horribly short on evidence. If it is such a big issue then there should be nothing but clogging evidence filling up FDev's inbox.

If not then is it really a problem? Or is it just a challenge to FDev vs their statement about it being an ban able exploit?

1st part isnt relevent - CL can affect any scenario, not just those seeking PvP.

2nd part - yes the thread is highlighting FDevs lack of action regarding what most other games take very seriously - if its a "bannable" offense, and it's not dealt with, the comapnies word is worth nothing, which then leads to what else has the company SAID it will do compared to what you ACTUALLY GET and that is at the heart of the issue.

"Does FDev back up their statements with action?"

 

[Madrax573]

How would they know?

SDC have just highlighted their own attempts - but only made it public 6 MONTHS later, and it was 6 MONTHS since their previous attempts.

and it still remains that if you set a "rule" and do not enforce it, you then set a precedent that from henceforth - you can NEVER enforce it, and if you do that person has the right of challenging that decision.

It happens all the time in law. It's either enforced or it isn't, there's no "middle ground".

Thats why in some states in the USA that have a 3 strikes rule for crimes - you can do 2 major crimes and the 3rd, HOWEVER MINOR, including traffic violations or petty theft like shoplifting will get you sent to jail FOR LIFE.**




**(Some people think thats too harsh - but fact is if you committed 2 crimes before and live in a 3 strikes state - you were warned, and its your own bloody fault.)

You do know this is a game right?

FDev can change the 'rules' whenever they bloody well want and we can't do a thing about it.

Again to me this sounds like a very small issue that a few very vocal players have taken as a point to argue with FDev.
IF it is such a big issue then simply floor FDev with so much evidence that they HAVE to have a statement about it, be it telling you all to shut the heck up or banning you all etc etc, that way they will have made a very public statement and the majority of players will decide if it an issue and FDev will themselves dug a big hole.

I'm not saying it's not an issue. I personally dislike the idea of quitting out to 'save yourself' back from playing the original counter strike ladders. I just don't seeing it being an issue to get my knickers in a twist thats all.

The problem is if you are the type to not going looking for PvP, then you would be the one clogging, and since you aren't, and the person who was looking for PvP isn't you won't have seen it often.

If you look for PvP you'll get two types of common cloggers, ones who are down to fight till they start losing and then when they realise they might have left it too late to jump, log (most annoying). The other type being those who just don't want none and start trying to jump straight away, but you take their shields down and they freak out, logging.

It is an issue.

I DO look for PvP on occasion when I decide to go murder hobo on things in a CG for eg. I just don't find clogging much at all that is.