PvP An Investigation Into Frontier's Actions on Combat Logging, Part 2

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

So you are talking about PvE CLogging, and then mostly just questioning my credentials.

PvE CLogging is still cheating, but I consider PvP CLogging to be a more pressing issue. As I've stated a few times, I believe that if the benefit of CLogging (avoiding the in-game consequence of in-game decisions) can be removed, the community stands a better chance of policing itself. My motivation here is the CLogging seal-clubber, I am personally less concerned about those who CLog when underequipped & attacked, but any solution I support should capture those anyway.

Several others on this thread have offered proposals for punishing repeat offenders that either specifically exclude PvE or are dependant on player reports (ie they are not concerned if those remaining are not bothered). It's also worth bearing in mind that throughout this thread there has been no significant discussion about the 15 timer, it seems now to be widely accepted that this is not cool, but not actually cheating.

Any system intended to capture ungraceful disconnects will inevitably capture game crashes & general network issues as well as deliberate CLogs. We are only concerned with situations where the ship is in danger, which helps to narrow it down but doesn't eliminate simple bad luck. No client can be trusted to be 100% reliable, that's what makes this less straightforward than say, the 5 for 1 exploit where it would be reasonable to assume anyone that did it more than once (by chance) did so on purpose.

Because any system that tries to identify CLogging will also capture unintended disconnects (including those where the 'CLogger' was forced out by the cynical instance host), it affects all players, not just PvPers. That you are concerned about PvE CLogging also means it potentially affects all players in all modes.


You have a view on how the game should be (open only etc) that is at odds with how FDev apparently perceive it, your opinion is biased by that & doesn't take into account how the game is, only how you think it should be. I am here because I am (or try to be) unbiased. I am the devils advocate, I am testing all ideas in as many scenarios as I can think of.

You play the game a different way & potentially can offer insight that I haven't considered, although I've had this kind of conversation plenty of times & with plenty of different people, so I bring the experience of their views to the table too. Nevertheless constructive input from different player types (including the CLoggers themselves where possible) is helpful in finding a solution. The CLogger offers a view on whether a particular reaction would discourage them from CLogging in the future, a freeform PvPer offers a view on whether they would be satisfied with a particular level of punishment.

In this thread one of the conclusions drawn was that if FDev simply produced a regular (anonymised) report stating how many CLoggers had been given whatever punishment that would go a long way towards satisfying the desire to know that something is being done.

If you can find a post where I (or stigbob or Asp Explorer) have denied that CLogging is a problem I'd be interested to see it. I play in Open, stigbob either does or has, Asp Explorer I suspect plays in a fourth mode none of us know about.

I'd like to suggest you read through the thread & consider why you are continuing to tell the world that it's a problem and complaining about a small bunch of people who are actually trying to solve the very problem you are complaining isn't being solved.

Not everyone that disagrees with you is your enemy Skid, and petty sniping doesn't help.

Whatever you say dude. There is no sniping here. Just facts. Plain and simple facts. Live with it.

 

[Riverside]

Whatever you say dude. There is no sniping here. Just facts. Plain and simple facts. Live with it.

I can live with it If nothing is done about CLogging & no changes are made to the instance filters I can live with it perfectly well.

You may have to too, if we are unsuccessful in persuading FDev that a change is worthwhile.

 

[Asp Explorer]

How about, in the event of Open "emergent gameplay" between players where both A: damage has occured , B: damage has been registered, and an "unclean" disconnect occurs for either party - they are both put on mutual block lists that can only be reversed by submitting a support ticket on both sides?

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Nah, this is what the Beyond changes are about. EVERYTHING is changing. Watch.

Slow and steady. Ground work first. Crime and Punishment, Mission reward adjustments,

Like other game developers. There will be more than what we are seeing now in patch notes man.

Like, they are showing you guys everything. Look at squadrons. Read between the lines. All this crap is changing. ALL OF IT.

By this time next year. People are going to be screaming "WHY DID YOU LISTEN TO THE GRIEFERS!!!!".

Well guess what, PVPers have to play every part of this game. We know this game like the back of our hands. And can PROVE every bit we are backing up.

Here let me give you a video, to look at. [video=youtube;uetVzNINdKU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uetVzNINdKU&feature=youtu.be&t=2733[/video]

"The answer is often talking to the people that know PVP better than we do".

Get ready. Times are changing. Better start learning the game, cause combat logging is going to change. There will be no more easy ways out. META's will change.

All you have to do is look what they announced and read between the lines.

 

[Riverside]

How about, in the event of Open "emergent gameplay" between players where both A: damage has occured , B: damage has been registered, and an "unclean" disconnect occurs for either party - they are both put on mutual block lists that can only be reversed by submitting a support ticket on both sides?

Someone in another thread suggested both ships blow up. It would be easy to implement

 

[Asp Explorer]

Someone in another thread suggested both ships blow up. It would be easy to implement

I'd be fine with that

Anyone else remember Sudden Exploding Cobra Syndrome?

Now, the trick would be to ensure that lulzbunnies mucking about causing disruptions would explode too - and that's no easy task. It could be possibly monitored by using Private Groups as Open Peers to monitor and arbitrate some Open transactions - on the general basis that they would be completely disinterested 3rd parties, but even that could be gamed by clever instancing and routing preferences by those determined to do so.

It's certainly an interesting problem

 

[Riverside]

I'd be fine with that

Anyone else remember Sudden Exploding Cobra Syndrome?

Now, the trick would be to ensure that lulzbunnies mucking about causing disruptions would explode too - and that's no easy task. It could be possibly monitored by using Private Groups as Open Peers to monitor and arbitrate some Open transactions - on the general basis that they would be completely disinterested 3rd parties, but even that could be gamed by clever instancing and routing preferences by those determined to do so.

It's certainly an interesting problem

I picture you playing this game like that guy from the Matrix with the melty green numbers

Have you seen this btw?
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/399328-Add-a-message-warning-for-task-kill-combat-logging-commanders-on-next-start-up?p=6300561&viewfull=1#post6300561

 

[Asp Explorer]

I picture you playing this game like that guy from the Matrix with the melty green numbers

Sadly I'm not such an impressive specimen.

Just an early 40's Scotsman wearing nothing but VR and a HOTAS

 

[jasonbarron]

Sadly I'm not such an impressive specimen.

Just an early 40's Scotsman wearing nothing but VR and a HOTAS

Are you sure that's a HOTAS?

 

[znôrt]

Get ready. Times are changing. Better start learning the game, cause combat logging is going to change. There will be no more easy ways out. META's will change.

dude, stop smoking that stuff. it will ruin your life, then it will make your teeth fall out, then it will kill you.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Are you sure that's a HOTAS?

I save the Tinky Winky outfit for weekends when I mine salt from pew-pews

 

[Stigbob]

Are you sure that's a HOTAS?

He's just pleased to see you.

 

[Han_Zen]

Are you sure that's a HOTAS?

Are you suggesting it's actually dual stick?

 

[InlineSix]

Rather convenient that the majority of "disconnects" happen to players under attack though no?

Is that so? I do have regular disconnects and instancing failures since dec 2014. On multiple systems and connections.

PS: I love to be advised not to play in open because "my connection is bad". Some people never read what they write. At least they don't get WHAT they write.

 

[gribley]

Hey guys,

I've responded to this thread over on Reddit and pasted the response below as well.

"Good evening everyone,

I understand the concerns that have been addressed in this thread and would like to take this opportunity to reassure you all that the team responsible for investigating issues such as cheats and combat logging have reviewed and verified that their processes have been followed, and that the account was reviewed by the team as part of these reports.


A huge number of factors go into reviewing each report and I can personally confirm, having been a part of the team that reviews these reports, that action is taken on a regular basis. However, we do not discuss the process, tools or systems for detection publically, as doing so would help people avoid detection.


While we understand the frustration caused when met with combat logging, continuous attempts at uncovering our investigation methods is not the way to assist with this being dealt with, as any information we give could be used to avoid detection.
As you likely know, combat logging is something that has been discussed openly with the community by our development team. There have been discussions and feedback on concepts such as a Karma system (here’s an example). This is one idea being considered in order to address such issues.


I’m sure you can appreciate that finding a solution that allows for automatic detection against rule breakers while also being fair on honest players is something that holds a number of challenges. It is something under discussion and active consideration but we have nothing to announce right now.


Kind regards,


Paige"

that right there is pretty sickening.
i had 3 players log on me today, i want to know whats being done personally, and when a group uncovers that a five time C-logger was not even touched that's pretty big news to me.
i would expect clarification, not a developer statement that essentially reads "you should totes trust us, also screw you for looking into this, holding us to account is unacceptable".

 

[Brrokk]

that right there is pretty sickening.
i had 3 players log on me today, i want to know whats being done personally, and when a group uncovers that a five time C-logger was not even touched that's pretty big news to me.
i would expect clarification, not a developer statement that essentially reads "you should totes trust us, also screw you for looking into this, holding us to account is unacceptable".

She asked you to trust her, but I don't see the bit where she said "screw you" or described anything as "unacceptable".

<EDIT> Changed "He" to "She" - I didn't get the name before.

 

[gribley]

He asked you to trust him, but I don't see the bit where he said "screw you" or described anything as "unacceptable".

trust is for people who are respectable.
so far they have displayed absolutely nothing that to make them deserve the slightest modicum of trust.

i personally feel sorry for the non-cloggers. Im a member of a power-play group and was in a system killing fed's . generally if the player is harmless or mostly harmless they get interdicted and told to leave the system or be destroyed.

then today i had 3 people use the delay to combat log, don't know if it was task-kill or menu and i don't care, now i don't care if its a harmless fed in a sidewinder, they die.
im not going to do the decent thing only to be spat on, the C-loggers ruined it for players who may genuinely not know why they are being interdicted.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I understand the frustration, but .... the cloggers ruined it for honest players, the gankers ruined it for honest PvPers.

When you log into a multiplayer game, you will meet pillocks, be them cloggers or gankers. Although in this case this is optional because of the brilliant modes. The only one responsible for your actions is you. So if you combat log because of how many gankers you encounter, you combat logged, your responsibility. If you start ganking because of all them combat loggers, you started ganking, your responsibility.

Sorry sad excuses for excuses:
I combat logged because of all them gankers
I kill anyone because of all them combat loggers

In both cases it's an attempt to shift responsibility. You are responsible for your actions. No one is forcing your hand. Stop making up excuses.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

that right there is pretty sickening.
i had 3 players log on me today, i want to know whats being done personally, and when a group uncovers that a five time C-logger was not even touched that's pretty big news to me.
i would expect clarification, not a developer statement that essentially reads "you should totes trust us, also screw you for looking into this, holding us to account is unacceptable".

If you want the devs to communicate with the community, then you have to drop the attitude. Also, don't shoot the messenger. Paige is just passing on what the devs and managers are telling her about the situation and presenting it in a PR friendly manner, as is her job. She also points out that the proposed karma system is how they are planning on dealing with certain aspects of negative behaviour.

Yeah, it must be annoying, but just count it as a win and move on. There is no difference to you from an outcome perspective except for the causing someone some credit loss. If that is your only motivation, maybe you should reevaluate your actions.

Instead of raging, try and educate people as to why its bad. Send them a friend request, talk to them nicely about why they logged, explain to them nicely why its not a good thing, and if they don't want PvP encounters, that maybe they consider playing in PG or Solo. If they are obstinate, block them, then you will never (or not be likely to) encounter them again.

Hell, if all PvPers blocked all combat loggers, i predict a 90% reduction in salt levels in the PvP community!!!!

I understand the frustration, but .... the cloggers ruined it for honest players, the gankers ruined it for honest PvPers.

When you log into a multiplayer game, you will meet pillocks, be them cloggers or gankers. Although in this case this is optional because of the brilliant modes. The only one responsible for your actions is you. So if you combat log because of how many gankers you encounter, you combat logged, your responsibility. If you start ganking because of all them combat loggers, you started ganking, your responsibility.

Sorry sad excuses for excuses:
I combat logged because of all them gankers
I kill anyone because of all them combat loggers

In both cases it's an attempt to shift responsibility. You are responsible for your actions. No one is forcing your hand. Stop making up excuses.

Also a bit of a chicken and egg situation.

And stop making me rep you! I'm never going to catch your rep level!

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Also a bit of a chicken and egg situation.

And stop making me rep you! I'm never going to catch your rep level!

At least we know it was first the egg