Thank you, I was not the only one though.
PvP An Investigation Into Frontier's Actions on Combat Logging, Part 2
- Thread starter Rinzler o7o7o7
- Start date
Thank you, I was not the only one though.
True. As always though it's predominantly the loudest minority that dictates the image of a community simply through virtue of being more visible, because they crave the attention. Nobody notices the benign players just quietly doing their thing. There's also the direct nature of PvP in a game that is trying to be a single player-esque adventure, which caters to fans of RPGs where everybody is the hero of their story and don't like being taken out of that immersion without some kind of in-game reasoning. Due to the direct impacts of PvP the PvP orientated a-hats will always be more visible than the PvE orientated a-hats who can be just as toxic mind you, both in-game and out of game.
Yep. Like I said previously in this thread, if FD don't plug up the benefits of a cheat or exploit they eventually start balancing their game around that cheat/exploit. And this distorts the clarity and purpose of the balance they wanted to achieve and usually ends up making a sub-par experience for legit players with no change for the cheaters/exploiters who just continue on.
My opinion on the C&P changes is that they are needed. It'll be good to finally have consequences for criminal actions. They won't even scratch combat loggers though as there is still not a single inconvenience to the combat logger for logging. Notoriety increasing the rebuy up to a capped point... yeah, combat loggers will just log even more to avoid it and the proffessional griefers out there will just be rich enough to pay it if they happen to let themselves die.
As for legit PvP, I don't see anything that will negatively impact genuine piracy or organised PvP. Pirates aren't supposed to kill their targets if they comply and they can make hideouts out of Anarchy systems as it should have been all along. Organised PvP is held with crimes off so no change there. The only problem I see is people trolling with crimes off/crimes on, i.e. they engage you or try to gank a trader, high wake, turn crimes on, come back and get you a murder charge by suicide ramming you after you shoot them. To alleviate this there needs to be made a very clear indication on the HUD whether a targeted ship has crimes on or off.
Those are my thoughts so far.
I have to give my support to the idea mentioned in those threads. It is certainly a step in the right direction. I thought that was a good discussion.
There should be something alongside the long term accumulation of tags though (which may or may not get looked at)perhaps something along the lines of 3 tags from you or your wing members in thirty minutes and 5min timeout.
I bring this up because often a quick log off and on is used for tactical advantage especially when fighting wings.
I don't see that inconveniencing anyone that much but would help take away a tactical use. Just a thought.
I'm not familiar with this, what (potential) tactical advantage does it gain? I remember it used to be common to jump out to SC & return with full shields instantly, that loophole was first established to be an exploit (and the PvP crowd stopped doing it) then closed so that your ship's state is preserved across instance changes, and exiting the game too I thought.
I just tested this by undocking & switching off my shield generator, switching it back on & logging out to main menu immediately. If I stay in the game it takes 15 secs or so for my shields to start rebuilding, if I log out & straight back in it starts rebuilding the shields immediately, skipping the delay.
Is this the advantage you mean? The 15sec 'ship in danger' delay negates this advantage, CLogging (or as I did, doing it when the ship is not in danger) means I can go back to menu & return to the instance to save a few seconds, but exiting the game & returning (or presumably disconnecting the network & reconnecting once at the menu, which I did not test) takes longer than 15 secs anyway. I could see this potentially offering an advantage for extremely large shields, but temporarily disabling shield boosters has a similar effect & seems to me to be easier to accomplish.
Or am I barking up completely the wrong tree?
So this wouldn't be eliminated by restricting mode switching, but would be captured by a karma type system.
Lets look at this from the accidental disconnect stance (rather than only a tactical CLog) & see if there is a test it can pass or fail.
You are proposing that if the network connection fails (for whatever reason) where the ship is in danger but the disconnected player wants to rejoin the same mode ASAP (a few seconds later) the disconnecting player should be restricted from rejoining for a short period (your suggest 5mins) if it happens more than once.
In a consensual PvP fight any repeating network problems would likely cause the organised match to be called off until any problems can be resolved, so I don't think anyone would complain here, just reshedule the match.
In a situation where the 'goodie' CLogs & the baddie is left in-game the goodie would probably be okay with having to wait to rejoin, the 'baddie' could choose to wait (assuming the goodie is restricted to return to the mode they left). Potentially the baddie gets bored & moves off to find another target, I don't think the goodie would complain about not being able to immediately rejoin, probably a good time for a break anyway.
In the situation where the 'baddie' CLogs to evade the wolf in sheeps clothing and as you suggest, wants to rejoin the same mode ASAP to have another slice of cake, the timer & mode restricting rules would work in combination to effectively imprison the baddie - they cannot attack either the wolf in sheeps clothing or choose another victim, they cannot move from their position either. I like this
So, Wings. where do they come into this? Can the rule simply apply to all players & scenarios (where the ship is in danger), or is there a special case where being in a wing changes the outcome?
So this wouldn't be eliminated by restricting mode switching, but would be captured by a karma type system.
Lets look at this from the accidental disconnect stance (rather than only a tactical CLog) & see if there is a test it can pass or fail.
You are proposing that if the network connection fails (for whatever reason) where the ship is in danger but the disconnected player wants to rejoin the same mode ASAP (a few seconds later) the disconnecting player should be restricted from rejoining for a short period (your suggest 5mins) if it happens more than once.
In a consensual PvP fight any repeating network problems would likely cause the organised match to be called off until any problems can be resolved, so I don't think anyone would complain here, just reshedule the match.
In a situation where the 'goodie' CLogs & the baddie is left in-game the goodie would probably be okay with having to wait to rejoin, the 'baddie' could choose to wait (assuming the goodie is restricted to return to the mode they left). Potentially the baddie gets bored & moves off to find another target, I don't think the goodie would complain about not being able to immediately rejoin, probably a good time for a break anyway.
In the situation where the 'baddie' CLogs to evade the wolf in sheeps clothing and as you suggest, wants to rejoin the same mode ASAP to have another slice of cake, the timer & mode restricting rules would work in combination to effectively imprison the baddie - they cannot attack either the wolf in sheeps clothing or choose another victim, they cannot move from their position either. I like this
So, Wings. where do they come into this? Can the rule simply apply to all players & scenarios (where the ship is in danger), or is there a special case where being in a wing changes the outcome?
I agree the karma system should catch this eventually(hopefully) and so will catch the serial loggers whether goodies or baddies.
My thoughts were for an immediate short term solution alongside the karma system and the one you have suggested(kudos for pulling that altogether from the community). It should apply to all.
I included wings only for the case mentioned and it would/could also discourage individuals from doing it when ganking in a wing. Mostly to prevent the "whack a mole" situation though.
You already share the problems a wingman commits now so not much different.
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Thinking about it 5mins is a long time for a single player to wait for their opponent to return, but might not be long enough for a wing battle that could potentially take more than 20mins to conclude. The Clogging player could potentially return & still be able to affect the outcome of the overall battle. Some consideration for the number of players in the instance might solve that (variable timer) but it would be tricky to balance.
I'll try to summarise this & stick it into the Combat Logging Punishment Proposal thread in the suggestions section. You've found a situation the mode restricting rule wouldn't capture, and proposed a workable solution.
I think it's worth highlighting for any remaining readers here that this is a new scenario to me, I have no experience of it but after clarification I can still test it & act as devils advocate. We all bring different views & experiences to the table, we can all contribute to a workable solution, if we are prepared put the time in. Just put yourself in the other guys shoes & consider how any change would affect them.
If anyone thinks my conclusions are mistaken or naive, offer your own. I'd be interested to read a different viewpoint. I might have missed some important aspect that you can correct or just interpret differently. I have no hidden agenda, I neither gain nor lose out whether this loophole is closed or not.
Well for say a trader they would have to clog three times after combat started for this to affect them...karma system kicks in for them eventually....they can as it stands move modes or even with your proposal wait so no different really there. This is only for combat. 5mins is a long time for a combat pilot to sit on their hands, nobody likes a timeout but it could be lengthened if necessary.
lol ^
Consequences
*Note All suggestions follow the simple rule of KISS, Keep it Simple Stupid
Problem: Combat logging.
FIX: Any ship, that fires on a 'target' or is fired upon is 'locked'
If the 'Internet' connection is lost the 'locked' ship that lost their connection ( combat logger) is blown up.
and the other Pilot is credited with a kill, any infringement by that remaining ship / player ( ie Griefing) at the start of the combat, is wiped.
* If your playing in Solo, and loose your internet connection during combat, there's No Consequence
..............
Crime and Punishment
Problem: Current fine system is irrelevant as the wealthy can pay, without burden.
FIX: All fines are based on a % of your Wealth the frequency and seriousness of your crime
Players who continuously commit serious crimes 'murder' (Griefers) their % of fines tipples with each offense.
...............
Problem: Pirates versus Murderers (Griefers)
FIX: Any ship that fires on a 'unarmed ship' and that ship is destroyed, is a Murderer.
Pirates targeting ships must target Cargo hatches, FSD drives only.
if the targeted ship is then 'destroyed' the Pirates gets nothings, there's no cargo to collect.
and a 'bounty' is placed on the Pirate , the Ship the Pirate destroyed pays no re-buy cost and no cargo or data is lost.
....................
General Game Play:
Murderers: are restricted to Anarchy systems. Their fines are a higher % of their wealth and repeat offenders % to be fined are tippled after each offense.
In the Anarchy systems, Murderers do penance for their crime, ie specific missions to rid themselves of a Murder tag, these missions take weeks to complete.
Privates Servers: are abolished, only two modes available Solo and Open, with the above in place.
SOLO Loose your connection in combat, No Consequence, your ship does not blow up
OPEN Loose connection during Combat, Yes Consequence, your ship does blow up
Yes this I know already, forums / threads are teaming with 'You can't say that', but I do anyway ..
UPDATE 2016 Carriers, Proximity Chat, Bookmarks
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=239890&p=3711624#post3711624
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/369641-Off-Ship-Storage-2-4-if-not-when
*Note All suggestions follow the simple rule of KISS, Keep it Simple Stupid
Problem: Combat logging.
FIX: Any ship, that fires on a 'target' or is fired upon is 'locked'
If the 'Internet' connection is lost the 'locked' ship that lost their connection ( combat logger) is blown up.
and the other Pilot is credited with a kill, any infringement by that remaining ship / player ( ie Griefing) at the start of the combat, is wiped.
* If your playing in Solo, and loose your internet connection during combat, there's No Consequence
..............
Crime and Punishment
Problem: Current fine system is irrelevant as the wealthy can pay, without burden.
FIX: All fines are based on a % of your Wealth the frequency and seriousness of your crime
Players who continuously commit serious crimes 'murder' (Griefers) their % of fines tipples with each offense.
...............
Problem: Pirates versus Murderers (Griefers)
FIX: Any ship that fires on a 'unarmed ship' and that ship is destroyed, is a Murderer.
Pirates targeting ships must target Cargo hatches, FSD drives only.
if the targeted ship is then 'destroyed' the Pirates gets nothings, there's no cargo to collect.
and a 'bounty' is placed on the Pirate , the Ship the Pirate destroyed pays no re-buy cost and no cargo or data is lost.
....................
General Game Play:
Murderers: are restricted to Anarchy systems. Their fines are a higher % of their wealth and repeat offenders % to be fined are tippled after each offense.
In the Anarchy systems, Murderers do penance for their crime, ie specific missions to rid themselves of a Murder tag, these missions take weeks to complete.
Privates Servers: are abolished, only two modes available Solo and Open, with the above in place.
SOLO Loose your connection in combat, No Consequence, your ship does not blow up
OPEN Loose connection during Combat, Yes Consequence, your ship does blow up
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...f-combat-logging-was-banned-from-chat/?page=1I wish you luck in getting others to engage with your ideas, it's not easy
Yes this I know already, forums / threads are teaming with 'You can't say that', but I do anyway ..
UPDATE 2016 Carriers, Proximity Chat, Bookmarks
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=239890&p=3711624#post3711624
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/369641-Off-Ship-Storage-2-4-if-not-when
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Crime and Punishment
Problem: Current fine system is irrelevant as the wealthy can pay, without burden.
FIX: All fines are based on a % of your Wealth the frequency and seriousness of your crime
Players who continuously commit serious crimes 'murder' (Griefers) their % of fines tipples with each offense.
Now that would work ....and hurt
Problem: Current fine system is irrelevant as the wealthy can pay, without burden.
FIX: All fines are based on a % of your Wealth the frequency and seriousness of your crime
Players who continuously commit serious crimes 'murder' (Griefers) their % of fines tipples with each offense.
Now that would work ....and hurt
How is that relevant to combat logging? That wouldn´t do anything about it.
So I saw this post by a Steam user, from his Steam account on the Steam Elite Forums in reply to a thread:
I would think publicly admitting someone murdered someone else in cold blood would be damning enough to be prosecuted and sent to prison. How do we report this? Without naming names, I would hope a user as brazen as this would face repercussions from Frontier, no?
Or is the 15 second logout an easy get out of jail free card, even if it is used 100% of the time to avoid combat versus another player in Open mode?
I would think publicly admitting someone murdered someone else in cold blood would be damning enough to be prosecuted and sent to prison. How do we report this? Without naming names, I would hope a user as brazen as this would face repercussions from Frontier, no?
Or is the 15 second logout an easy get out of jail free card, even if it is used 100% of the time to avoid combat versus another player in Open mode?
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What can they do, like he said it's legit mechanic for him to do that. I don't get mad though, it's like someone saying, after they get hit in the face they lie down on the floor and start crying cus it makes the attacker so mad. Not really, just shows em up to be the big babies they are, whilst leaving them at the mercy of the attacker.
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The player on the steam forum whom you are quoting does a fantastic job of living up to his name; an item commonly found circling the porcelain bowl of a toilet.
The guy is trolling, pushing your buttons, in-game and/or on that forum.
There is a proposal that would allow the 15 sec timer to be extended by moving the confirmation dialogue box from the end to the beginning, allowing the player to go AFK.
I've seen people use the logout timer specifically, and with no other purpose than, to interfere with the play of others.
To the best of my knowledge, they were never punished, despite being reported for harassment, with copious evidence being included.
Similar to the block function, the current incarnation of menu logging was poorly thought out. While what you're saying is technically true, it needs to be bumped to 45-60 seconds with the permission given at the beginning.