PvP An Investigation Into Frontier's Actions on Combat Logging, Part 2

[jasonbarron]

Every day, yet more equivocation. "If it were not for the bad gankers there would be no clogging!"

All the PvPers have left, aside from the occasional check in, and now PvErs who's experience with player versus player engagements begin and end with bickering on the forum have turned it into a one sided echo chamber. Guys, there is no direct technical link between ganking and clogging; if Fdev can ever be bothered to do something about it (even sending advisory emails would be an improvement), they don't need to distinguish the reason why the clogger pulled the plug, just that they did.

 

[Martian Successor]

Hell, if all PvPers blocked all combat loggers, i predict a 90% reduction in salt levels in the PvP community!!!!

In theory sure. But in practice it's not really an option for two main reasons:

1) Combat logging is so widespread by now that you'd have to block roughly 60-70% of the playerbase. A consequence of FD letting it run rampant for 3+ years. That ends up being a punishment for the PvPer while the cheaters get all the freedom to roam the game.

2) Gankers and greifers would just get a completely free pass to harass newbies and non-combat players in open seeing as how C&P is entirely in the playerbase's hands. At least if you can instance with the gankers, murder hobos, ne'er do wells, etc you can interdict them/attack them and distract them away from attacking players who cannot fight back. It takes time for them to c-log and log back in at least. It's incredbily frustrating for us doing the chasing but if it means sparing at least one newbie a rebuy that day then that's something at least.

Also a bit of a chicken and egg situation.

And stop making me rep you! I'm never going to catch your rep level!

He is a slippery customer that one. TeeJay, Ziggy's rep ing again! There's blame to be had

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Also a bit of a chicken and egg situation.

And stop making me rep you! I'm never going to catch your rep level!

A chicken and an egg are having a post-coital cigarette ... in an uncomfortable silence.
"Well', says the chicken, breaking the silence, "that answers that age-old question"

It's funny how you get rep here for stating the bleeding obvious. I feel I don't deserve it, so you can have it back

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

In theory sure. But in practice it's not really an option for two main reasons:

1) Combat logging is so widespread by now that you'd have to block roughly 60-70% of the playerbase. A consequence of FD letting it run rampant for 3+ years. That ends up being a punishment for the PvPer while the cheaters get all the freedom to roam the game.

2) Gankers and greifers would just get a completely free pass to harass newbies and non-combat players in open seeing as how C&P is entirely in the playerbase's hands. At least if you can instance with the gankers, murder hobos, ne'er do wells, etc you can interdict them/attack them and distract them away from attacking players who cannot fight back. It takes time for them to c-log and log back in at least. It's incredbily frustrating for us doing the chasing but if it means sparing at least one newbie a rebuy that day then that's something at least.


He is a slippery customer that one. TeeJay, Ziggy's rep ing again! There's blame to be had

To be fair, the chicken didnt just appear. There was an evolution.

There is some truth to this Metaphor.

The game has evolved from what it started out to be. Some parts of the game stayed the same. While other stuff was added.

Were in a PVP world built around what started as a PVE game. They added things in this game without addressing the issues based around PVP activities.

The game has evolved, and is evolving. Besides exploration and the thargoid changes in the beyond updates.

What are the major changes? Crime and Punishment, Wing missions, Squadrons and Multiplayer Balancing changes. Beyond is all about catching up that evolution. Sit back relax and enjoy the fireworks. This year is gonna be a blast =P

 

[jasonbarron]

A chicken and an egg are having a post-coital cigarette ... in an uncomfortable silence.
"Well', says the chicken, breaking the silence, "that answers that age-old question"

It's funny how you get rep here for stating the bleeding obvious. I feel I don't deserve it, so you can have it back

Something dirty just happened, but I'm not sure what.

 

[Martian Successor]

A chicken and an egg are having a post-coital cigarette ... in an uncomfortable silence.
"Well', says the chicken, breaking the silence, "that answers that age-old question"

It's funny how you get rep here for stating the bleeding obvious. I feel I don't deserve it, so you can have it back

80% of my shiny green squares were from me stating the obvious. 15% for being funny. 5% pitty reps.

 

[jasonbarron]

80% of my shiny green squares were from me stating the obvious. 15% for being funny. 5% pitty reps.

That's funny, because I think 95% of my reps were from pity. The remaining five percent were from that time that I promised everybody if I made it to Elite in rep I'd quit the forum for good.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

80% of my shiny green squares were from me stating the obvious. 15% for being funny. 5% pitty reps.

Indeed. Repped you for one of those 3

That's funny, because I think 95% of my reps were from pity. The remaining five percent were from that time that I promised everybody if I made it to Elite in rep I'd quit the forum for good.

You also got blackmail rep. "I'll tell you if you rep me"

 

[Martian Successor]

That's funny, because I think 95% of my reps were from pity. The remaining five percent were from that time that I promised everybody if I made it to Elite in rep I'd quit the forum for good.

Repped for always having awesome facial hair on your avatar.

Indeed. Repped you for one of those 3

Or all of them! I was stating the obvious about needing pity and my need for pity amuses people

 

[Agony_Aunt]

All the PvPers have left, aside from the occasional check in, and now PvErs who's experience with player versus player engagements begin and end with bickering on the forum have turned it into a one sided echo chamber. Guys, there is no direct technical link between ganking and clogging; if Fdev can ever be bothered to do something about it (even sending advisory emails would be an improvement), they don't need to distinguish the reason why the clogger pulled the plug, just that they did.

If all the PvPers have left, then who am i talking to in the PvP hub? Maybe you should get involved with that? Also, who is killing players if the PvPers have left or making the combat log? Come on Jason, you can do better than this hyperbole!

In theory sure. But in practice it's not really an option for two main reasons:

1) Combat logging is so widespread by now that you'd have to block roughly 60-70% of the playerbase. A consequence of FD letting it run rampant for 3+ years. That ends up being a punishment for the PvPer while the cheaters get all the freedom to roam the game.

2) Gankers and greifers would just get a completely free pass to harass newbies and non-combat players in open seeing as how C&P is entirely in the playerbase's hands. At least if you can instance with the gankers, murder hobos, ne'er do wells, etc you can interdict them/attack them and distract them away from attacking players who cannot fight back. It takes time for them to c-log and log back in at least. It's incredbily frustrating for us doing the chasing but if it means sparing at least one newbie a rebuy that day then that's something at least.

1) Totaly hyperbole. For a start, roughly 60% of players play in PG/Solo (numbers vary depending on poll of course). You'd have to be claiming even the PvPers are combat logging... oh, wait, some do Seriously though, people want combat loggers banned. What is the difference between a banned player and a player you don't see through blocking? If FD are not banning, then block them, same result more or less.

2) No they wouldn't, because the people who are PKing are not usually the ones defending those players. Those who do defend those players have no need to block them. LeKeno posted a video on the Cobra Kai discord showing how he protected someone who logged (menu log or task kill no idea) as LeKeno swooped down on his target. If the logger had stayed around, they could have continued on their way without logging, and the PKer ended up running. However, someone who is protecting traders or non-PvPers might want to block the loggers on principle, but hey, that's their loss for logging.

 

[Martian Successor]

1) Totaly hyperbole. For a start, roughly 60% of players play in PG/Solo (numbers vary depending on poll of course). You'd have to be claiming even the PvPers are combat logging... oh, wait, some do Seriously though, people want combat loggers banned. What is the difference between a banned player and a player you don't see through blocking? If FD are not banning, then block them, same result more or less.

2) No they wouldn't, because the people who are PKing are not usually the ones defending those players. Those who do defend those players have no need to block them. LeKeno posted a video on the Cobra Kai discord showing how he protected someone who logged (menu log or task kill no idea) as LeKeno swooped down on his target. If the logger had stayed around, they could have continued on their way without logging, and the PKer ended up running. However, someone who is protecting traders or non-PvPers might want to block the loggers on principle, but hey, that's their loss for logging.

1) "60% play in PG/Solo" - Needs citation otherwise it's as much total hyperbole as you claim my observation to be. Check point number 2 for the difference between blocking them and not. If they were banned they wouldn't be in the live game, problem solved. If they were discouraged from clogging via some form of punishement or extra hassle, problem solved. Blocking them doesn't solve anything, it's just burying ones head in the sand.

2) You're not making sense here. I did not suggest PKers are the ones doing the defending, please re-read what I wrote. Why would an outlaw/ganker/griefer hunter block cloggers on principle? What is the advantage to them for doing so? They lose the chance to even distract them long enough for other players to escape.

 

[Powderpanic]

If all the PvPers have left, then who am i talking to in the PvP hub?

Whats left, looking for a reason to stay in the game after EVERYONE else left.

Ask any original PVP player who is still playing, to describe their friends list to you.

 

[jasonbarron]

If all the PvPers have left, then who am i talking to in the PvP hub? Maybe you should get involved with that? Also, who is killing players if the PvPers have left or making the combat log? Come on Jason, you can do better than this hyperbole!

I was referring to this thread specifically, my defrocked old friend. And I would contend that hyperbole is the very definition of what you and your like minded cohorts have been engaging in for the length and breadth of this thread

 

[zantar]

That's funny, because I think 95% of my reps were from pity. The remaining five percent were from that time that I promised everybody if I made it to Elite in rep I'd quit the forum for good.

That was so good, you earned that rep 110%! [big grin]

 

[sutex]

I saw that you posted this a day or so ago but left it to see what feedback (if any) others may give.

Here's my thoughts:

CLogging:

Your idea of 'locking' passes most tests I can think of, it only accounts for PvP (personally I'm okay with this, I know others aren't) but it also only considers how the CLog affects another player. I'd say if you were disconnected (deliberately or otherwise) during PvP combat, guaranteed hull loss is an acceptable rule that the playerbase would grudgingly accept. The main test it fails is that of the spoofed Clog, where the player is disconnected cynically by the instance host (ie you get hacked). Personally I think this is unlikely enough, and serious enough a cheat that it could be handled by customer support on a case by case basis.

Crime & Punishment:

The idea of linking fines & bounties to the players wealth is a complex one. Is it the cash in your pocket, the total assets? My overriding feeling is that this would apply equally to PvE & PvP crime, and would not go down well with the community. It would be too effective & discourage players from taking risks. I think it might also significantly increase the burden on Customer Support to undo massive fines created by bugs & unintended behaviour. Committing crimes is part of the game, it's fun. There should be a proportionate response, I think this is overkill.

Piracy vs murder:

Putting the criteria on targetting only specific modules doesn't solve the problem. I could target the cargo hatch of another player & still tear their hull apart simply by not hitting their belly. For me, piracy is a crime of desparation, it's opportunistic, not specifically planned. I think the Code would have been so much more fun if they had gone down the Mafia intimidation route rather than just stealing cargo they clearly didn't need (considering the ships they fly). Piracy is a sideshow, like running rares. IMO Mob rule or Mercenary Privateering is where it's at.

General Gameplay:

I quite like the idea of having a separate 'murderer' tag over & above 'wanted'. The original game had 'clean', 'offender' and 'Fugitive'. Having a complex series of hoops to jump through to clear your name is a good idea, and provides both interesting gameplay for those who want to return to the lawful side, and the choice to wear your 'murderer' badge of honour.

Private Groups:

You provide no argument for eliminating these other than a weak CLogging rule that can be handled a different way. I see no benefit in removing the instancing filters provided by the game, and I don't think it's a suggestion that would go down well with the wider community. It's just not that kind of game.


Footnote: I appreciate the thought that has gone into this, I hope you will take my feedback into account & see if you can improve your concepts. No idea is perfect straight out of the box, discussing them can lead to interesting solutions.

Crime & Punishment:

You need to target Wealth, otherwise Punishment has no meaning or TEETH ..

I do note 'some' players like committing crime 'ingame'
Anarchy systems, should be you home sweet home, were you're not shot at by the locals, but lorded as the scum pirate murderer you are.


Private Groups:
Everyone wants that MMO feeling like we saw in those trailers. For that to happen players like myself who left Open to go Private servers to escape Grifters, need to return to Open. Having all players in open with 'The Rules' ( suggestions from my thread) in place , makes life interesting for PvP & safe with some terror for PvE

 

[Riverside]

Crime & Punishment:

You need to target Wealth, otherwise Punishment has no meaning or TEETH ..

I do note 'some' players like committing crime 'ingame'
Anarchy systems, should be you home sweet home, were you're not shot at by the locals, but lorded as the scum pirate murderer you are.


Private Groups:
Everyone wants that MMO feeling like we saw in those trailers. For that to happen players like myself who left Open to go Private servers to escape Grifters, need to return to Open. Having all players in open with 'The Rules' ( suggestions from my thread) in place , makes life interesting for PvP & safe with some terror for PvE

I wish you luck in getting others to engage with your ideas, it's not easy

 

[jasonbarron]

That was so good, you earned that rep 110%! [big grin]

I like to call my method "rep hoboing."

 

[Martian Successor]

I wish you luck in getting others to engage with your ideas, it's not easy

Yes indeed. I saw and appreciated your valiant efforts over in this thread:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...f-combat-logging-was-banned-from-chat/?page=1

How difficult it is to get people to understand that FD could very easily be doing SOMETHING to alleviate the problem of clogging. It is a hard problem to solve but it is not impossible and it's not even that hard to start inconveniencing c-logging when FD has access to the proposal you kept linking to. And yet people ignore you and continue to drag the topic back to useless chicken and egg circular debates.

After seeing the reactions and peoples attitudes in that thread towards you and the proposal you linked, do you see why so many PvPers have grown so jaded and disgruntled about combat logging? Even a popular youtuber, having been clearly shown a way to solve a big part of the problem by you, still insisting that FD have no way to solve 'such a complicated' problem. And that we need to give them more time... when an easy to implement proposal is right there in front of them still waiting for an official response.

It is exasperating just reading stuff like that let alone trying to fight for a solution you know already exists and just needs to be attempted by FD.

 

[jasonbarron]

Yes indeed. I saw and appreciated your valiant efforts over in this thread:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...f-combat-logging-was-banned-from-chat/?page=1

How difficult it is to get people to understand that FD could very easily be doing SOMETHING to alleviate the problem of clogging. It is a hard problem to solve but it is not impossible and it's not even that hard to start inconveniencing c-logging when FD has access to the proposal you kept linking to. And yet people ignore you and continue to drag the topic back to useless chicken and egg circular debates.

After seeing the reactions and peoples attitudes in that thread towards you and the proposal you linked, do you see why so many PvPers have grown so jaded and disgruntled about combat logging? Even a popular youtuber, having been clearly shown a way to solve a big part of the problem by you, still insisting that FD have no way to solve 'such a complicated' problem. And that we need to give them more time... when an easy to implement proposal is right there in front of them still waiting for an official response.

It is exasperating just reading stuff like that let alone trying to fight for a solution you know already exists and just needs to be attempted by FD.

I have to admit to some respect for Riverside on that thread (which I never noticed at all yesterday). I especially liked his schooling of the Youtuber. I agree with the point you are raising; Fdev we don't expect a "panacea" but we do expect "something" to be done.

 

[Riverside]

Yes indeed. I saw and appreciated your valiant efforts over in this thread:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...f-combat-logging-was-banned-from-chat/?page=1

How difficult it is to get people to understand that FD could very easily be doing SOMETHING to alleviate the problem of clogging. It is a hard problem to solve but it is not impossible and it's not even that hard to start inconveniencing c-logging when FD has access to the proposal you kept linking to. And yet people ignore you and continue to drag the topic back to useless chicken and egg circular debates.

After seeing the reactions and peoples attitudes in that thread towards you and the proposal you linked, do you see why so many PvPers have grown so jaded and disgruntled about combat logging? Even a popular youtuber, having been clearly shown a way to solve a big part of the problem by you, still insisting that FD have no way to solve 'such a complicated' problem. And that we need to give them more time... when an easy to implement proposal is right there in front of them still waiting for an official response.

It is exasperating just reading stuff like that let alone trying to fight for a solution you know already exists and just needs to be attempted by FD.

Yeah that was an exercise in pure frustration. A few people took notice though.

It may not seem like it but I do understand the frustration you guys feel when the player just disappears in front of you. However as you probably saw a lot of the reason why people dismiss CLogging as 'not their problem' is because the 'I should be able to kill anyone I want' attitude doesn't generate support.

I focus on the 'sealclubbing griefer' and 'baddies CLog too' because it's a scenario that non PvP types people can relate to and hopefully get behind. TrueSilver opened my eyes to this and his views motivated me to find a solution.

My initial proposal was mostly a throw-away to get the ball rolling but that first post in the CLogging Punishment Proposal thread should give you an idea of where I stand in terms of both genuine CLogging and accidental disconnects - neither are considerate to other players & both should be minimised (for different reasons of course). Most suggestions are much more forgiving than my own, with only ryan_m's standing out as more extreme (and unworkable, you can't establish a trend based on a single datapoint).

I am frustrated by the self-righteous approach the OP in this thread took, as I have said before in this thread, I think it's counterproductive, it doesn't engender sympathy. The Clogging Griefer does, and any system that captures those will naturally also capture the underequipped trader etc.

As a community, the ED PvP playerbase has a bad rep because this community contains a sub-set of griefers that act in a way that directly affects other players (who may also be griefers but in a way that isn't quite so in-your-face). But this same community also contains the only players who can take on those griefers and police them out of a system - if the benefit of CLogging (switching to solo & moving position) can be eliminated.

You guys are probably all looking at the new C&P system & thinking one of two things:

a) this is going to make legitimate PvP (piracy, organised matches etc) harder, and
b) most of it's consequences can be avoided by CLogging.

The solution is clear to me, eliminate the benefit of the 'exploit' and use of that exploit will naturally die off, then C&P gamerules don't need to try to solve so many problems, and compromise other areas.

I wish it were this clear to more people, FDev in particular.