PvP An Investigation Into Frontier's Actions on Combat Logging, Part 2

[Morbad]

I've never clogged, even when I knew I would lose millions and being griefed. Still, I don't think CL is a big issue. If you attack someone for PvP and they clog, to me, that shows that you won by default. Perhaps you didn't get the money for the bounty, but so what. Can someone explain what and who loses if someone clogs?

Everyone who cares about the verisimilitude and integrity of the game setting loses.

Disconnecting to save assets is essentially a duplication exploit. Any insurance costs, any cargo costs, any profit (credits, rep, rank, or BGS work) from failed missions, and any time saved, are all things the combat logger now has that they would not have had if they had not cheated.

Even if you can discount any influence this would have on the shared parts of the setting, having one set of rules for legitimate players and then another, better, set of rule for overt cheaters is a slap in the face to anyone willing to adhere to the rules.

PvP issues are only a small (though the most visible) subset of the problem. Sure you can call it a 'win' if someone disconnects on you, but they'll surely be doing the same, and they still have everything they should have lost, so even that small deterrent to making the same mistakes in the future vanishes. This may not be a problem for a friendly duel or a pitched battle, but that's not most PvP, and those scenarios can easily be decided on conditions other than ship destruction.

If you go back to the post I made in this thread previous to this one, you'll find an example of someone who goes around destroying random defenseless ships, while flying a Corvette and not being able to cover it's rebuy. By all rights, that CMDR should be in a Sidewinder, which would make their antics a bit more difficult. Ultimately, the only objective victories are about inflicting loss upon your enemies; when they cannot lose anything tangible, they cannot be defeated, only momentarily distracted by the need to switch to solo to do some repairs.

While I have sympathy with Cl problem, I totally understand moving a fabricated, shoddy investigation that's sole purpose seems to have been to cause controversy to the 'back pages'.

Also all you guys accusing FD of 'lying' need a chill pill, there was nothing for them to act on in terms of facts from that investigation, 5 occurrences in 5 mnth by 1 perpetrator; hence no action taken.

Is anyone even talking about the SDC 'investigation' at this point?

That was just an icebreaker. There is plenty of meat elsewhere and it really doesn't paint FDev any better as far as enforcement goes.

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

Morbad they have stated several times that there are technical difficulties with a fix, but they are trying to develop something , is this not good enough for most here?

What in that case do people want, bans on limited evidence, account wipes?

 

[Morbad]

Morbad they have stated several times that there are technical difficulties with a fix, but they are trying to develop something , is this not good enough for most here?

I try to be optimistic, but a 3.5 year delay for even any tangible fix for a fairly prominent issue is not confidence inspiring.

I've gotten rebates from class action lawsuits in less time than this!

What in that case to people want, bans on limited evidence, account wipes?

I don't think the majority want punitive measures to be taken on unconfirmed cases. However, for the blatantly obvious and well corroborated cheating done by repeat offenders, an account wipe would be a good 'strike two' punishment.

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

I agree its taken a long time for them to focus on this issue, one of the reasons I lament not having a couple of in-game employees/GM's who could hunt complained about cmdrs to get evidence for themselves about cheaters.

 

[Sir.Tj]

What makes me laugh about this sorry affair is the statements from Frontier: Please don't investigate us because if combat loggers know how we detect them, then they'll be able to do it more easily.

LOL WAT? That sort of suggests they are doing something about it which all things considered is laughable. As for the thread being moved so its out of sight, well thats exactly why its been moved. The 'moderation' of this forum goes way beyond moderation, its more about censorship and smotheringly attempting to control the narrative.

Just so you know, In all the time I've been part of the the moderation team Frontier have NEVER requested, hinted or instructed any of us to censor what is posted on the forum. They have always listened to critisism as long as it's constructive, however when some throw their toy's out of the pram well it tends to fall on deaf ears.

If a forum member breaks the rules irrespective of what "side" of the fence they are on they are treated accordingly.

I personally see the game as one big melting pot which makes thing much more interesting when player types are in the same universe.

I've closed and reopened this thread twice now so that's my level of censorship, and no I personally did not move the thread to the PvP section which if I remember was hevily requested by players of a PvP style.

 

[PeLucheuh]

I personally see the game as one big melting pot which makes thing much more interesting when player types are in the same universe.

Well said.

I personally did not move the thread to the PvP section which if I remember was hevily requested by players of a PvP style.

We don't remember the same thing then. Combat logging is not exclusive to PvP and was confirmed by Sandro : https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/105778-“Combat-Logging”-Update
Most PvP players don't understand why this thread has been moved in this section.

For clarity’s sake, “combat logging” is when a Commander ungracefully exits the game (e.g. using ALT + F4 then shutting down the game process) to avoid defeat, destruction and damage.

Commanders might use this exploit the moment they are interdicted or the moment before they are about to be destroyed.

Although this is flagged primarily as a multiplayer concern, the issues (and solutions) apply equally to the single player game.

First things first: we do consider this an undesirable exploit. It’s not “part of the game”.

 

[Julio Montega]

Just so you know, In all the time I've been part of the the moderation team Frontier have NEVER requested, hinted or instructed any of us to censor what is posted on the forum. They have always listened to critisism as long as it's constructive, however when some throw their toy's out of the pram well it tends to fall on deaf ears.

If a forum member breaks the rules irrespective of what "side" of the fence they are on they are treated accordingly.

I personally see the game as one big melting pot which makes thing much more interesting when player types are in the same universe.

I've closed and reopened this thread twice now so that's my level of censorship, and no I personally did not move the thread to the PvP section which if I remember was hevily requested by players of a PvP style.

Thank you very much for commenting about the topic and problematic at hand.

This game is indeed a very big melting pot for several mindsets,
playstyles and personal backgrounds.
Also this game has a very interesting community regarding the average age,
to my knowledge it is older than any other out there.

However I can not agree, from a personal perspective,
on FD "always listening to constructive criticism".
The feedback from them on topics and issues
that are reflected in the forums and on other media
is serverely lacking, which creates the impression
of not caring about it.
The epitome of this is seen on the lacking inplementation
of the DDF articles, that were designed in a dialogue with
the playerbase.

To the matter of closing and reopening the thread:
I think it would be needed to discuss this habit of "cooling off"
as a tool of moderation with the moderation team.
It creates the impression of censorship, due to individuals
not behaving according to forum rules.
I strongly criticize this habit and suggest finding another means
of moderation as alternative.

While reading the thread i have not found any nuances hinting
towards the PvP interested and focussed people wanting this thread
to be moved into the PvP section.
On the contrary, my impression is that it is the PvE people,
who had the interest in the moval of this thread.
However this does not address the point of this topic
being sensitive and important, whatever playstyle floats your boat.
This is a personal observation, as i do both PvE and PvP i am pretty
much between the walls there.

Summarizing this thread and the input at hand
leads me to the following:
- it is a hot topic
- the playerbase is very emotional about it
- it touches all player, modes and playstyles
- the topic is most obvious in PvP interactions
- people wait for a reaction from FD, not only some PR posts
- this topic creates another rift regarding trust of the playerbase towards FD

 

[JosiahD]

I don't think the majority want punitive measures to be taken on unconfirmed cases. However, for the blatantly obvious and well corroborated cheating done by repeat offenders, an account wipe would be a good 'strike two' punishment.

Frontier didn't even come down as hard as that on those that used the Engineer exploit/cheat, with merely a removal of affected modules. If they were to do so for combat loggers, then I expect equal treatment of other cheaters. I wonder just how many of those complaining about combat logging and expecting a ban or account wipe are really so squeaky clean when it comes to exploits/cheats to accept such harsh punitive action across the board? Throwing stones when living in a glass house and all that.....

 

[Goose4291]

Just so you know, In all the time I've been part of the the moderation team Frontier have NEVER requested, hinted or instructed any of us to censor what is posted on the forum. They have always listened to critisism as long as it's constructive, however when some throw their toy's out of the pram well it tends to fall on deaf ears.

Who said anything about Frontier trying to steer the narrative? What I'm seeing is the usual forum consensus doing it's usual "PvP player comments baaaad, PvE goooood" schtick.

If a forum member breaks the rules irrespective of what "side" of the fence they are on they are treated accordingly.

Indeed TJ. Which is why everytime I report a post which has an anti pvp/open/griefers mentality driving it, be it avoiding the swear filter, personal attacks, or just a plain old strawman to take us away from the main point, nothing ever gets done. However, the moment I suggest grown men crying about pretend spaceships being blown up need to perhaps grow up a little? Post moderated and infractions issued.

I even had a post in this thread removed as 'trolling' and a 24hr ban for linking someone who said that Frontier have never released a statement regarding combat logging, to the official statement.

I personally did not move the thread to the PvP section which if I remember was heavily requested by players of a PvP style.

Citation required.

 

[Stigbob]

Frontier didn't even come down as hard as that on those that used the Engineer exploit/cheat, with merely a removal of affected modules. If they were to do so for combat loggers, then I expect equal treatment of other cheaters. I wonder just how many of those complaining about combat logging and expecting a ban or account wipe are really so squeaky clean when it comes to exploits/cheats to accept such harsh punitive action across the board? Throwing stones when living in a glass house and all that.....

That's the thing, even hitting a 100% confirmed clogger with a single rebuy is a much harsher punishment than the 5-1 cheats received. Realistically an e-mail saying don't do that is about the limit of what can happen.

As for expecting/demanding punishments for menu-logging or having dodgy internet that's just setting yourself up for disappointment.

 

[sewerratuk]

We don't remember the same thing then. Combat logging is not exclusive to PvP and was confirmed by Sandro : https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/105778-“Combat-Logging”-Update
Most PvP players don't understand why this thread has been moved in this section.

I think he means that a dedicated PvP forum on the server was much requested and the fact that it’s being said that moving this thread here is akin to censorship doesn’t exactly say much for this sub

 

[PeLucheuh]

I think he means that a dedicated PvP forum on the server was much requested and the fact that it’s being said that moving this thread here is akin to censorship doesn’t exactly say much for this sub

You might be correct (English is not my native language). My bad Sir Tj if it was my mistake.

 

[Arguendo]

I see, so anything that differs from your own limited experience should be disregarded?

This appears to be a case of the pot and the kettle.

Let's roll back a little, since the "bug discussion" is becoming very circular.

You initially claimed that the game is inherently bugged and causes disconnects to such a degree that it's impossible to detect combatlogs, in several different posts, like these:

There are still far too many problems with the game stability that makes any sort of automated system pointless. I frequently have the game crash on me

That doesn't get over the fundamental problem that it will mostly "catch" legitimate game crashes and disconnects which occur at high frequency among many players.

Until then we have a buggy, unstable game that has no way to reliably detect combat logging, much less provide a definitive solution to the issue.

If what you state above is true, that the game itself is bugged, unstable, and causes frequent disconnects across the board, how is it then possible that some players do not experience this even if they play on a daily basis. If the game itself was truly bugged to the extent you perpetuate, then it would surely affect all players, not just a subset.

Example: If you experience frequent loss of TV signals, but your neighbour does not. Would you blame it on the TV signals, or would you try to find out why your signals drop out but not your neighbour's?

See, I used to have a lot of disconnects, but my friends didn't. So I did some searching around, checked common errors, and possible solutions. I did ping-checks and looking for dropped packets on my connection, etc. Eventually I found that uPNP on my router caused issues for me, so I followed FDev's suggestions of disabling uPnP and forward the game to port 5100. That removed a lot of my disconnects, but I still had more than the ones I played with. So, I did a packet loss check and found that for some reason my 2.4GHz wifi was dropping a lot of packets, while my 5GHz was not. So I permanently changed to my 5GHz wifi net, and the problems all but disappeared.

I still do get some disconnects in the game, and admittedly it used to be worse and especially right after a game update, but it is nowhere near at the game-breaking level you seem to describe. Like I said earlier, I have had exactly two disconnects the last month and both were CTDs with the subsequent "error reporting window". Two disconnects in one month is not game breaking at any level, and certainly not to such an extent that it would prevent FDev from seperating those from task-killing in combat if I had ever done that (I haven't btw).

It seems like Martian Successor and the group he plays with has exactly the same experience as I do; the game is in general stable, with a hickup here and there. You on the other hand do not. So, I ask you again; if the game is stable for us and we don't get disconnected willy-nilly, how can it then be an inherent game problem? We should all be experiencing the same issues at the same frequency if it was, should we not?

So, I surmise that for people who experience those kind of disconnects there is a problem somewhere between the game server and the end user, and trying to find that source is more important than just claiming that it's the game's fault. It may be out of your control, but it doesn't mean that it's the game's fault.

I wish you luck with your troubleshooting, I truly do, as a stable game is something I want for everyone. I do not however support your idea that it's the game that is the inherent problem here. That has been the point all along, but you honestly appear to be incapable of seeing that because you seem to have a confirmation-bias due to other's bug reports which are similar to your issues.

PS: And please refrain from talking about raining skimmers etc. The relevance here is centered around disconnects, as that's the only issue that affects the ability to detect deliberate taskkilling.

 

[PeLucheuh]

Frontier didn't even come down as hard as that on those that used the Engineer exploit/cheat, with merely a removal of affected modules. If they were to do so for combat loggers, then I expect equal treatment of other cheaters. I wonder just how many of those complaining about combat logging and expecting a ban or account wipe are really so squeaky clean when it comes to exploits/cheats to accept such harsh punitive action across the board? Throwing stones when living in a glass house and all that.....

You need to read again what punishment happened (it was not "merely a removal of affected modules") : https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/358986-Community-Update-Engineer-Exploit-Action-Taken
Btw, do you know who reported this exploit (many times) and explained/helped FDev to reproduce it ???

About combat logging. Directly banning players seems too harsh i agree. Until it gets fixed and impossible to use, there should be graduate response from e-mail warning to ban.

 

[Julio Montega]

That's the thing, even hitting a 100% confirmed clogger with a single rebuy is a much harsher punishment than the 5-1 cheats received. Realistically an e-mail saying don't do that is about the limit of what can happen.

On what parameter do you base that on?
A single rebuy is credit related,
and credits are earned much quicker and easier
than the materials for engineers are, not even counting in the
time it requires to get the good results and the time to roll.

Thereby i do not think your argument here has any meat to the bones.
There simply was more time invested grabbing modules compared to a single rebuy.
However what is obvious is FD handling those infractions differently,
to the point where people find it biased.

 

[Goose4291]

That's the thing, even hitting a 100% confirmed clogger with a single rebuy is a much harsher punishment than the 5-1 cheats received. Realistically an e-mail saying don't do that is about the limit of what can happen.

As for expecting/demanding punishments for menu-logging or having dodgy internet that's just setting yourself up for disappointment.

As I mentioned earlier, it comes down to when the 'cheater' committed their act.

5-1 was never regarded as an exploit, and pretty much ignored by FDev for a fair old while before they clamped down on it. Naturally, it seems reasonable to only take accrued assets off them, in the same way that the idiots who exploited the founders world discount to amass early credits had just the credits taken off of them (as it wasn't acknowledged as an exploit till after the fact, and Frontier plugged the issue in a similar manner to the 5-1).

If however, a player was to find a way to repeat the 5-1 after it had been acknowledged as exploitative and cheating, then I think bans are justifiable. Which is where the issue with comparisons with combat logging lies.

Frontier have acknowledged combat logging as cheating/exploiting and players are continuing to utilise it as a tool in their arsenal in the exact way it was highlighted as being cheatey/exploitative, which is why it should carry severe penalties.

 

[Julio Montega]

As I mentioned earlier, it comes down to when the 'cheater' committed their act.

5-1 was never regarded as an exploit, and pretty much ignored by FDev for a fair old while before they clamped down on it. Naturally, it seems reasonable to only take accrued assets off them, in the same way that the idiots who exploited the founders world discount to amass early credits had just the credits taken off of them (as it wasn't acknowledged as an exploit till after the fact, and Frontier plugged the issue in a similar manner to the 5-1).

If however, a player was to find a way to repeat the 5-1 after it had been acknowledged as exploitative and cheating, then I think bans are justifiable. Which is where the issue with comparisons with combat logging lies.

Frontier have acknowledged combat logging as cheating/exploiting and players are continuing to utilise it as a tool in their arsenal in the exact way it was highlighted as being cheatey/exploitative, which is why it should carry severe penalties.

Well put.
Not acting here is sending a direct message to the playerbase,
and the message send is not "we value you as customers and human beings".

It is controversial and their inaction leads to believe
in a biased approach on the playerbase tied to their
playstyles.

 

[Stigbob]

As I mentioned earlier, it comes down to when the 'cheater' committed their act.

5-1 was never regarded as an exploit, and pretty much ignored by FDev for a fair old while before they clamped down on it. Naturally, it seems reasonable to only take accrued assets off them, in the same way that the idiots who exploited the founders world discount to amass early credits had just the credits taken off of them (as it wasn't acknowledged as an exploit till after the fact, and Frontier plugged the issue in a similar manner to the 5-1).

If however, a player was to find a way to repeat the 5-1 after it had been acknowledged as exploitative and cheating, then I think bans are justifiable. Which is where the issue with comparisons with combat logging lies.

Frontier have acknowledged combat logging as cheating/exploiting and players are continuing to utilise it as a tool in their arsenal in the exact way it was highlighted as being cheatey/exploitative, which is why it should carry severe penalties.

Cloggings no different to a cash exploit, players cheat by clogging to evade a rebuy and they cheat by using whatever the current cash-exploit is to gain easy money. The end result of the cheating in both cases is space-cash, which effects only the cheat who avoided paying it or avoided having to "earn" it (silly word in a video game, but there you go).

But the 5-1 exploit wasn't about space-cash it was about gaining artificial advantage over other players and NPC's in all aspects of the game leading to more space-cash, less rebuys, unfair rebuys for non-cheats, gained rank, gained permits, accessed engineers, effect on the BGS on and on and on for months. So that particular cheat effects the game and other players much more widely than clogging ever could.

So from that you can see where FDEV rate punishments for severe cheating, clogging will never get people banned because it's such a trivial thing.

One of the arguments (which I don't agree with) for not banning the 5-1 cheats was that it was so widespread, maybe clogging and cash exploiting are the same only FDEV know for sure. It would certainly explain their hands off lenient approach to all of it.

 

[Riverside]

Cloggings no different to a cash exploit, players cheat by clogging to evade a rebuy and they cheat by using whatever the current cash-exploit is to gain easy money. The end result of the cheating in both cases is space-cash, which effects only the cheat who avoided paying it or avoided having to "earn" it (silly word in a video game, but there you go).

But the 5-1 exploit wasn't about space-cash it was about gaining artificial advantage over other players and NPC's in all aspects of the game leading to more space-cash, less rebuys, unfair rebuys for non-cheats, gained rank, gained permits, accessed engineers, effect on the BGS on and on and on for months. So that particular cheat effects the game and other players much more widely than clogging ever could.

So from that you can see where FDEV rate punishments for severe cheating, clogging will never get people banned because it's such a trivial thing.

One of the arguments (which I don't agree with) for not banning the 5-1 cheats was that it was so widespread, maybe clogging and cash exploiting are the same only FDEV know for sure. It would certainly explain their hands off lenient approach to all of it.

My understanding is that some accounts were banned. Presumably the particularly bad examples, judged by whatever criteria FDev chose. I thought they handled it well, aside from not acting sooner. I imagine the boy who cried wolf applied, and genuine reports were overlooked because they receive so many false positives from over-sensitive types.

One of the advantages of acting quickly is that more severe penalties can be applied. The excuse 'but everyone was doing it, this is so unfair' doesn't wash. But FDev have not acted quickly to stamp out cheating, so applying a stiffer penalty comes across as more of a punishment than the deterrent it should be (ie make an example of the few).

 

[PeLucheuh]

Cloggings no different to a cash exploit, players cheat by clogging to evade a rebuy and they cheat by using whatever the current cash-exploit is to gain easy money. The end result of the cheating in both cases is space-cash, which effects only the cheat who avoided paying it or avoided having to "earn" it (silly word in a video game, but there you go).

But the 5-1 exploit wasn't about space-cash it was about gaining artificial advantage over other players and NPC's in all aspects of the game leading to more space-cash, less rebuys, unfair rebuys for non-cheats, gained rank, gained permits, accessed engineers, effect on the BGS on and on and on for months. So that particular cheat effects the game and other players much more widely than clogging ever could.

So from that you can see where FDEV rate punishments for severe cheating, clogging will never get people banned because it's such a trivial thing.

One of the arguments (which I don't agree with) for not banning the 5-1 cheats was that it was so widespread, maybe clogging and cash exploiting are the same only FDEV know for sure. It would certainly explain their hands off lenient approach to all of it.

The funny thing is "less rebuys, unfair rebuys for non-cheats, gained rank, gained permits, accessed engineers, effect on the BGS" correspond exactly to the Clogging cheat and not the 1-5 exploit.

Nice try though.