PvP An Investigation Into Frontier's Actions on Combat Logging, Part 2

[Stigbob]

That's a journalist's job to determine.

Besides, even if an article would resume to them reaching out FDEV and asking for a statement, a simple statement that action is in fact taken against CLoggers in the form of warnings or shadow bans, it would still be something. It would actually be more than we currently got as a response from FDEV.

Exactly and that journalist may have done that already, and received information in return that convinced them not to touch a dubiously sourced story with a ten foot stick. That would certainly explain the lack of interest this time around.

Five pre-arranged artificial clogs over a five month period is hardly a smoking gun, especially in a game where regular disconnects are common.

Five clogs in a day would certainly raise eyebrows and five clogs in an hour would be blatant, but the numbers as they stand in this "investigation" represent better internet connectivity than most UK firms can deliver.

The reported problem just isn't newsworthy.

 

[DR Grandreefer]

You are asking players to police themselves, which, given a large portion of comments on these forums, and the overall state of the game, is clearly impossible.

I can and do limit myself, as my goal as a player is pretty much in line with the statements Braben made during development that I've put in my signature. However, most people, including everyone who would combat log, are not looking for the same sort of game; they take "blaze your own trail", or "play your way", to mean "play the game like it's a single player title you own, and to hell with the consequences for the game or anyone else".

Destroying CMDR vessels controlled by helpless, ignorant, newbie, players is never going to be difficult, is likely never going to be against the rules, and isn't really even against the spirit of the game. Sure the consequences of such actions aren't presented well in-game, but equating this with more profound exploits or actions that have been explicitly prohibited is neither here nor there.

Also. I am not asking for players to police themselves. I am asking for FDev to police both sides so we have less of it. Less dashbording comes from less grieving and less grieving/more selectness in targets will give us opportunities to have stronger and faster ships. As I see it all sides win in this case. Everyone gets what they want plus bonus's. Well except for the ones that just want to kill everything with no challenge from the any CMDR's in which case you already lost. You are only just realizing it. Speaking of which. How about those prison system FDev is talking about now?



And that's where you're wrong. Frontier should be enforcing all of their rules and prohibitions to the best of their abilities, even if enforcing some are easier than others. Waiting until everything can be identified consistently and reliably means that nothing would ever get done.

Patterns of repeat, wilful, disconnections are certainly easier to identify than the personal motivations of what a player has their in-game character do are.



The code of conduct outlines several behaviors as prohibited: https://www.frontierstore.net/code-of-conduct

Sandro also explicitly defined malicious griefing almost five years ago: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=4604

malicious griefing (which we loosely define as actions whose only purpose, outcome and gain is to punish and frustrate other players).

Most of the activities you've decried above do not fit the criteria used to define griefing. One (or many) CMDR destroying vastly weaker CMDRs who don't want a fight is almost never griefing, and shouldn't be a prohibited action at the player level.

How are people able to ignore the connection between the 2. Grieving came before dashboarding and is very well one of the main causes for it to happen. Its kind of like saying you shave and then put shaving cream on when saying just "punish dashboarding". Like its backwards man. Please dont get so defensive. Communication from both sides helps FDev and no body is winning unless a problem solving option gets talked about.

Also I never once asked for the community to police itself. There is no logical way for that to work and to even think it doesnt get us anywhee. I am asking FDev to police both sides of this issue so that both issues happen less. Even just less grieving will lead to less dashboarding and being more selective with targets only helps the community to get bigger and more powerful ship and builds. Not too mention just help to expand the community in general. However if you only want to load up Elite and kill things with no challenge then I can see how this doesnt help you.

 

[Powderpanic]

Exactly and that journalist may have done that already, and received information in return that convinced them not to touch a dubiously sourced story with a ten foot stick. That would certainly explain the lack of interest this time around.

Five pre-arranged artificial clogs over a five month period is hardly a smoking gun, especially in a game where regular disconnects are common.

Five clogs in a day would certainly raise eyebrows and five clogs in an hour would be blatant, but the numbers as they stand in this "investigation" represent better internet connectivity than most UK firms can deliver.

The reported problem just isn't newsworthy.

You are either being deliberate in ignoring what has been reported or just do not understand what a combat log is

A combat log is not a sudden unexpected disconnect because you in live in the countryside and your internet is bad.

A combat log is when you play for hours and hours with your bad internet, no issues. Get interdicted by another player or jumped while in a RES. Then rather than man up and take the loss, you pull the cable. Log into Solo, relocate and then log back into Open.

Having witness hundreds of combat logs, they all work much the same way.

They fly about for a bit, sudden stop taking damage and then sit there immune to everything until they just vanish from your screen.
You then see them again in Open, and the exact same scenario repeats.

Could this happen at the same time as your holy random bad internet disconnection? Yes, it could.
Is this what is happening 99% of the other time.. High unlikely and is this what SDC tested (TWICE), documented and reported.

So start talking about the actual OP's example and stop trying to derail, what is a genuine issue for players who ACTUALLY PVP.

Now again while people will say PVP is not an important part of the game. For those players who do not play ALL of the game, that is true.

For the PVP players who do play ALL of the game, it is a huge issue.

 

[Morbad]

How are people able to ignore the connection between the 2.

Why people cheat doesn't excuse the cheat.

Grieving came before dashboarding and is very well one of the main causes for it to happen.

That is a rather bold and completely unsubstantiated claim.

The only time I ever combat logged was back in standard beta, against an NPC, as much to see what would happen as anything, and I strongly suspect that far more people are disconnecting to save assets from PvE threats, because those activities are far more common than hostile encounters with other CMDRs.

You also haven't demonstrated much overlap between Frontier's griefing definition and the behavior you personally find reprehensible enough to punish.

Communication from both sides helps FDev and no body is winning unless a problem solving option gets talked about.

Enforcing the rules sounds like a good place to start.

 

[Julio Montega]

No tirade here. Just laying out facts just like you where and It just so happens my answers are applied to the op very first question "how did we get here". I am sorry if my opinion stands against you but this is how the world works. You put your opinion out there and others will follow. I am sorry if I wasted you time while you where wasting time.

How are people able to ignore the connection between the 2. Grieving came before dashboarding and is very well one of the main causes for it to happen. Its kind of like saying you shave and then put shaving cream on when saying just "punish dashboarding". Like its backwards man. Please dont get so defensive. Communication from both sides helps FDev and no body is winning unless a problem solving option gets talked about.

The two are connected, but not necessarily.
The whole idea of clogging is existing disconnected
from any player induced reaction.

Example:
NPC attacks you
Is close to killing you
CLOGG
Saved time and money

The case is there, apart from whether there is a player involved
or not.
Without player interaction, there is no "griefing".

Thus "griefing" is no prerequisite
and to me is besides the point.

 

[DR Grandreefer]

Why people cheat doesn't excuse the cheat.



That is a rather bold and completely unsubstantiated claim.

The only time I ever combat logged was back in standard beta, against an NPC, as much to see what would happen as anything, and I strongly suspect that far more people are disconnecting to save assets from PvE threats, because those activities are far more common than hostile encounters with other CMDRs.

You also haven't demonstrated much overlap between Frontier's griefing definition and the behavior you personally find reprehensible enough to punish.



Enforcing the rules sounds like a good place to start.

The two are connected, but not necessarily.
The whole idea of clogging is existing disconnected
from any player induced reaction.

Example:
NPC attacks you
Is close to killing you
CLOGG
Saved time and money

The case is there, apart from whether there is a player involved
or not.
Without player interaction, there is no "griefing".

Thus "griefing" is no prerequisite
and to me is besides the point.

Ok everyone clearly you have a problem with the dashboading and clearly I have a problem with my new players getting killed. I am simply trying to explain my side of the argument based off of those two perimeters. Can you come up with other ways these cheats are being used. Yes but it doesnt take away from the main reason as to why everyone has a problem with dashboarding. They want their kills. As for grieving coming before dashboarding I know no body started whining about dashboarding until grievers started posting videos and screen shots of the dashboaders. So again I ask you where did the problems lie. None of you complained until you attempted to kill your first dashboarder and now you want us to beileve that dashboarding is the first problem with this whole talk. Pick a side and Ill argue with you but I cant argue with such contradictory statements

 

[Morbad]

Ok everyone clearly you have a problem with the dashboading and clearly I have a problem with my new players getting killed. I am simply trying to explain my side of the argument based off of those two perimeters.

You don't have an argument. These are two unrelated things, one of which is against the rules, one of which is not.

If you want it to be against the rules for the CMDRs of new players to be shot down, put it in the suggestion forum. I doubt it will gain much traction there, but it's clearly out of place in a discussion regarding the rules as they are.

Can you come up with other ways these cheats are being used. Yes but it doesnt take away from the main reason as to why everyone has a problem with dashboarding. They want their kills.

Even were this the case, griefing is still neither here nor there. Most people disconnecting to save their assets aren't in the process of being 'griefed'. Indeed, I'd be very surprised if the amount of actual griefing that used combat logging as a griefing tool was not higher

As for grieving coming before dashboarding I know no body started whining about dashboarding until grievers started posting videos and screen shots of the dashboaders.

Reference Sandro's thread from early 2013 again. What to do with disconnectors was already an issue before there was even a game.

So again I ask you where did the problems lie.

The same place they always have...with Frontier not doing enough to enforce their own rules.

None of you complained until you attempted to kill your first dashboarder and now you want us to beileve that dashboarding is the first problem with this whole talk.

Presumptuous and false.

I wasn't aware of 'dashbording' until I attempted it myself during beta (and I'm pretty sure I bug reported it as a problem), and as I've never griefed anyone, griefing obviously hasn't played into any of the times I've see legitimate in-game consequences foiled by those my CMDR was fighting deliberately disconnect.

Pick a side and Ill argue with you but I cant argue with such contradictory statements

The only contradictions here are between your claims and reality.

 

[Goose4291]

Example:
NPC attacks you
Is close to killing you
CLOGG
Saved time and money

Or even more tragically, NPC scans you while on a smuggling mission and you combat log.

 

[Red Anders]

Just so you know, In all the time I've been part of the the moderation team Frontier have NEVER requested, hinted or instructed any of us to censor what is posted on the forum. They have always listened to critisism as long as it's constructive, however when some throw their toy's out of the pram well it tends to fall on deaf ears.

If a forum member breaks the rules irrespective of what "side" of the fence they are on they are treated accordingly.

I personally see the game as one big melting pot which makes thing much more interesting when player types are in the same universe.

I've closed and reopened this thread twice now so that's my level of censorship, and no I personally did not move the thread to the PvP section which if I remember was hevily requested by players of a PvP style.

So just to make sure I'm absolutely clear on this, you're saying don't blame Tj?

 

[DR Grandreefer]

Ok well I simply was trying to explain the very thing FDev is doing and are in the process of implementing. The first thing that FDev is regulating is the grievers. Hense the Karma/C&P system. IF that system works in limiting grieving then you will see punishments for dashboarding. But No game developer is going to please a small minority while putting such a large majority at risk of never playing the game again. Clearly you have shown FDev that regardless of your "game ending" complaints ( or at least you make it out to be) you are all still posting reasons as to why it should be another way all the while still playing the game. That will never outweigh the number of people that stopped playing the game entirely from this mentality and better yet we have people online saying they will never play the game because its too big and too hard to learn with all the added stories of games people play just to ruin another CMDR's day. Again you might not be one of these people however this is just one recourse to how this all unfolds and the very center of this problem. I mean you cant seriously expect me to take you CLoggin on NPC's as a clear game ending problem for you. Arguments like that make you sound like your just arguing to argue. In which case I can hang out here all day and waste time if thats what yo want to do.

 

[Sole Hunter]

Can we stick to the original discussion, for crying out loud.

We are talking about Frontier ignoring combat logging reports, not the engineer exploit that was fixed or how you are feeling this morning.

We all understand that cheating is bad, no matter how it's done. We don't need 50 pages of redefining terms.

 

[Stigbob]

You are either being deliberate in ignoring what has been reported or just do not understand what a combat log is

A combat log is not a sudden unexpected disconnect because you in live in the countryside and your internet is bad.

A combat log is when you play for hours and hours with your bad internet, no issues. Get interdicted by another player or jumped while in a RES. Then rather than man up and take the loss, you pull the cable. Log into Solo, relocate and then log back into Open.

Having witness hundreds of combat logs, they all work much the same way.

They fly about for a bit, sudden stop taking damage and then sit there immune to everything until they just vanish from your screen.
You then see them again in Open, and the exact same scenario repeats.

Could this happen at the same time as your holy random bad internet disconnection? Yes, it could.
Is this what is happening 99% of the other time.. High unlikely and is this what SDC tested (TWICE), documented and reported.

So start talking about the actual OP's example and stop trying to derail, what is a genuine issue for players who ACTUALLY PVP.

Now again while people will say PVP is not an important part of the game. For those players who do not play ALL of the game, that is true.

For the PVP players who do play ALL of the game, it is a huge issue.

None of which has any bearing whatsoever on five fake clogs over a five month period, which is utterly trivial.

 

[DR Grandreefer]

Can we stick to the original discussion, for crying out loud.

We are talking about Frontier ignoring combat logging reports, not the engineer exploit that was fixed, not about griefing or how you are feeling this morning.

These are all details to help each of us explain our opinions on the original post. The subjects are all connected to the op. I dont see why you think we are off topic.

 

[Morbad]

IF that system works in limiting grieving then you will see punishments for dashboarding.

Which is absurd.

Clearly you have shown FDev that regardless of your "game ending" complaints ( or at least you make it out to be) you are all still posting reasons as to why it should be another way all the while still playing the game. That will never outweigh the number of people that stopped playing the game entirely from this mentality and better yet we have people online saying they will never play the game because its too big and too hard to learn with all the added stories of games people play just to ruin another CMDR's day. Again you might not be one of these people however this is just one recourse to how this all unfolds and the very center of this problem. I mean you cant seriously expect me to take you CLoggin on NPC's as a clear game ending problem for you.

Please point out where I stated or implied that any particular problem was of 'game ending' magnitude.

I do value the internal consistency of the in-game setting and anything that allows out-of-game actions to override in-game events, especially in defiance of the rules, is a serious problem. Combat logging is bad precisely because it allows assets that should have been lost to be retained, then continue to have influence on the rest of the game and everyone else in it. This creates a disconnect between plausible cause and effect, undermines the various mechanisms of progression, and gives the (evidently accurate) impression that rules don't matter because they won't be enforced.

In all of these respects, it hardly matters who combat logs against who or what, or why they do it. All that matters is that one more thing that shouldn't have been able to happen in-game did, despite Frontier saying it shouldn't.

Arguments like that make you sound like your just arguing to argue.

Is that better or worse than accusing the other side of actions, statements, and opinions they've never expressed and then continuing the argument against your our own presumptions instead of what you've quoted?

 

[Powderpanic]

The pro cheating supporters in this thread are incredible.

Can I check on your views of running a shield hack and scripting my weapons to produce more damage, then sitting in someones factions and tanking it by single highhandedly afking in a CZ with turrets or cop killing.

If I only do that once's a month, would that be ok? I mean it doesn't directly affect PVP players.

Also the eeeeeeee about previous exploits making this thread invalid.... its just sad.. Come on...

 

[DR Grandreefer]

Which is absurd.



Please point out where I stated or implied that any particular problem was of 'game ending' magnitude.

I do value the internal consistency of the in-game setting and anything that allows out-of-game actions to override in-game events, especially in defiance of the rules, is a serious problem. Combat logging is bad precisely because it allows assets that should have been lost to be retained, then continue to have influence on the rest of the game and everyone else in it. This creates a disconnect between plausible cause and effect, undermines the various mechanisms of progression, and gives the (evidently accurate) impression that rules don't matter because they won't be enforced.

In all of these respects, it hardly matters who combat logs against who or what, or why they do it. All that matters is that one more thing that shouldn't have been able to happen in-game did, despite Frontier saying it shouldn't.



Is that better or worse than accusing the other side of actions, statements, and opinions they've never expressed and then continuing the argument against your our own presumptions instead of what you've quoted?

Dude you are very defensive and this is clearly displayed by the op as some type of very severe problem with them game and then you brought Cloggin on NPC's to the conversation. I am only going with the flow you give me and if I assumed or feel you implied something wrong feel free to correct me with your links but again you are only standing on one side of the argument If you not able to see any other side then there is no point in having the argument. Thats what arguing to argue is. You are only having an argument to waste time and not to better the game for everyone. Like I said my only suggestion applied to a very specific type of Combat Loggin and grieving. No other type of play style would be effected by my suggestions. So if you have a problem with my suggestions then my only assumption is that you want to kill whatever target you want whenever you want. After all, what other situation does this conversation truly effect others?

The game was never created to just kill everything. Developers will always regulate the content in their games that are effecting the majority and as some of the others in here has said. Your player base that believes this needs to be fixed right now is just far to small for FDev to take seriously. Let alone take these lists of Cloggers and Cheaters and do anything with it. Those types seem so salty and after the complain up a storm the go back to playing elite for multiple hours a day. Well I am sorry that you dont notice this but your hostility doesn't get you what you want. Maybe try something else sooner the later.

 

[Stigbob]

This is so true.

5 disconnects (either forced, caused by network drop etc) in 5 months time is not far from plausible on anyones connection. The fact that they happened only during combat, still not statistically significant. My connection drops more than once a month mostly when changing instances. Figure that 5 drops over 5 months and think of all the players who are having legitimate disconnects its hardly any wonder FD didnt pay attention, its not like the op is anybody special that FD is keeping tabs on.
In fact the op (and any shenanigans he/she has done) may have worked against the intent of the test.

After all people are people and at a certain point the squeaky wheel just gets replaced

Now if it was 5 a day over 5 weeks and nothing happens you might be able to say something.

Yep, if they'd put a bit of effort into it then they might have gained some traction (if FDEV didn't immediately recognize the linked accounts and false reports) but the whole notion that this is an actual problem isn't just comical it's ludicrous.

There's no point crying wolf when we can all see it's just a crudely photoshopped Chihuahua.

 

[DR Grandreefer]

@morbad One last thing. The C&P system is being put in place to regulate the grievers first, like I Said it should. That way the cloggin can be regulated. This stuff is already happening. I was just trying to get you to see it for yourself but sometimes you just need to walk away and let things happen so people can learn from those things. I still have hope for you man.

 

[jasonbarron]

@morbad One last thing. The C&P system is being put in place to regulate the grievers first, like I Said it should. That way the cloggin can be regulated. This stuff is already happening. I was just trying to get you to see it for yourself but sometimes you just need to walk away and let things happen so people can learn from those things. I still have hope for you man.

I haven't been following your conversation with Mr. Morbad, but I will just correct one misconception you seem to be laboring under by conflating griefing & clogging: griefing is rarely if ever outright cheating as it is typically using ingame mechanics and methods to achieve a desired ingame result, whilst clogging is always cheating regardless of ingame reasons for doing so. What you and others are advocating is "as long as there is the possibility of being griefed it's totally ok for me to task kill. When fdev fixes griefing I'll quit clogging then!" And all that is is an endorsement of outright cheating. It is never ok to task kill against another player, regardless of their behavior.

 

[DR Grandreefer]

I haven't been following your conversation with Mr. Morbad, but I will just correct one misconception you seem to be laboring under by conflating griefing & clogging: griefing is rarely if ever outright cheating as it is typically using ingame mechanics and methods to achieve a desired ingame result, whilst clogging is always cheating regardless of ingame reasons for doing so. What you and others are advocating is "as long as there is the possibility of being griefed it's totally ok for me to task kill. When fdev fixes griefing I'll quit clogging then!" And all that is is an endorsement of outright cheating. It is never ok to task kill against another player, regardless of their behavior.

Well it always nice when somebody comes along and tries to have a real respectful conversation without just saying “You’re wrong”. I can see where you think that’s what I am saying. What I am trying to say is that the cheating aspect of combat logging cannot be punishable or fixed unless some of the grieving is regulated first. That is what FDev is doing. If they don’t do this they risk losing a lot more gamers then what they clearly haven’t lost from the combat logging issue. Thank you sir for explaining it that way. O7