Rare piracy and no griefing sounds like "rare and meaningful" to me.
An investigation into Frontier's actions on Combat Logging
- Thread starter ryan_m
- Start date
Rare piracy and no griefing sounds like "rare and meaningful" to me.
Not sure what you're getting at.
I'm saying that in respect to this issue, it's arguable whether some people feel the core issue is combat logging or griefing.
I'm also suggesting SDCs attitude is a problem, out of the door accusations of lying, threats, blackmail, and talk of "putting Frontier on their knees". It's hard to be sympathetic.
Brett ,show me where the rule list is.....if there is no list....then no rules....so logging can't be against them lol
Awwwww - someone else needs a hug. Here, have a hug you special little sausage
I hope it's andouille
Nah, just a simple, descriptive, accurate statement of fact, and in the other one, that was your ad'Hom, but I guess the rules don't apply to you eh?
I have not attacked a single person, and I wouldn't do that, because I have:
1. Class
2. Forum etticate
3. An impeccable sense of style
4. A mustache
Well, one can certainly see the two camps here in this debate!
Fact is FDev really can't do much with combat logging (intentional disconnects) with respect to penalizing players. They've implemented a timeout which is typically the most that can be done. The P2P framework itself doesn't help FDev much in terms of legal cover if they were to impose strict responses like banning players as the combat logging is really taking place between players' machines. And what data would FDev have to support someone claims of breaking the games' license if they were challenged? Legally there's little or nothing to stand behind in their EULA or Terms of Use. Read it. It describes cheating in the context of using code/bots/scripts/etc., to manipulate the game interaction in some way. Here's the text for those that are curious:
"(c) use cheats, automation software, hacks, mods, or any other unauthorized software designed to modify or defeat the purpose or experience of the Game."
If someone was using an IP-booting app then, yes, they would be breaking the EULA and therefore cheating because of the app but not because they exited the game.
And that's really the other key point here which is logging really isn't cheating. Debate this all you want but someone exiting a game when conditions are unfavorable isn't cheating. It's unsportsmanlike conduct, it's bad behavior, it's not nice, etc., But leaving a game at any time the player wants to is not cheating. To be cheating there would have to be an enforceable game rule that says the player cannot leave under these specific conditions. But there's nothing like this in the EULA nor would one ever expect to see such a silly statement. And there's nothing about being a 'bad sport' either. Look at it this way: if you were playing tennis with someone, and they walked out of a match because they were going to lose, would you call them a cheater? If a football team suddenly stopped playing because they were so far behind would you say the team cheated? Yeah, the only cheating taking place is in the (verb) context of the attacker being cheated out of a kill when someone logs (evades). But the action itself isn't cheating.
Best thing FDev can do is simply fix the problems that cause people to want to log - fix whatever it is that makes people disconnect in the first place. Stop asking for punishment as this will only drive players away from the game. Not fixing will also drive players away which FDev needs to understand and is really the main value of this thread.
Probably pointless trying to be rational in an emotion driven thread LOL!
Fact is FDev really can't do much with combat logging (intentional disconnects) with respect to penalizing players. They've implemented a timeout which is typically the most that can be done. The P2P framework itself doesn't help FDev much in terms of legal cover if they were to impose strict responses like banning players as the combat logging is really taking place between players' machines. And what data would FDev have to support someone claims of breaking the games' license if they were challenged? Legally there's little or nothing to stand behind in their EULA or Terms of Use. Read it. It describes cheating in the context of using code/bots/scripts/etc., to manipulate the game interaction in some way. Here's the text for those that are curious:
"(c) use cheats, automation software, hacks, mods, or any other unauthorized software designed to modify or defeat the purpose or experience of the Game."
If someone was using an IP-booting app then, yes, they would be breaking the EULA and therefore cheating because of the app but not because they exited the game.
And that's really the other key point here which is logging really isn't cheating. Debate this all you want but someone exiting a game when conditions are unfavorable isn't cheating. It's unsportsmanlike conduct, it's bad behavior, it's not nice, etc., But leaving a game at any time the player wants to is not cheating. To be cheating there would have to be an enforceable game rule that says the player cannot leave under these specific conditions. But there's nothing like this in the EULA nor would one ever expect to see such a silly statement. And there's nothing about being a 'bad sport' either. Look at it this way: if you were playing tennis with someone, and they walked out of a match because they were going to lose, would you call them a cheater? If a football team suddenly stopped playing because they were so far behind would you say the team cheated? Yeah, the only cheating taking place is in the (verb) context of the attacker being cheated out of a kill when someone logs (evades). But the action itself isn't cheating.
Best thing FDev can do is simply fix the problems that cause people to want to log - fix whatever it is that makes people disconnect in the first place. Stop asking for punishment as this will only drive players away from the game. Not fixing will also drive players away which FDev needs to understand and is really the main value of this thread.
Probably pointless trying to be rational in an emotion driven thread LOL!
What I mean is that while SDC's attitude isn't all that agreeable, it does make a valid point in this case regarding FD's attitude toward the user base. The core issue this thread raises is not combat logging, it's FD's attitude. Which we currently have compelling evidence to believe FD takes no issue in lying to its playerbase and sweep issues under the rug. If put lightly, FD are slacking off and need player investigation to wake up, which in the full spectrum are all alarms for concern.
I take it back. All hail the moustache.
On a side note, how would you describe the term you used on others that I then used on you? Or are you suggesting that it's only an ad hom when you call a specific person an "entitled brat" rather than a whole group of people you disaprove of? I call it hipocracy.
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Brett C
Frontier
So this is where my PVP side of me comes out, which at this point, this doesn't reflect to the views of Frontier Developments. This is over two decades worth of me playing FPS, RTS, MMO's, etc...
If a commander's ship is blown up by legitimate methods (read: by not using some silly app/script to hack the game client to magnify/aimbot the damage), be it open, or group, or whatever the mode... and they're crying about a one off event, that is not griefing, that is of one or more of the following...
1) Learn to play.
2) Know enemy player ships and loadouts.
3) Learn how to combat it.
4) Learn the alternatives to what just happened.
This goes without saying, if you've joined some persons private server (a private group in ED's case), it's generally requested that players stick to the guidelines given.
A gentleman does not correct another in public, but I feel I must here.
Ad homs are attacks against a particular person making an argument. I have not attacked a single person in this thread. I have made arguments, but unfortunately I have seen a lot of abuse directed at me simply because of my position. I will not respond in kind because I know how emotional some people can get about a children's space game they play as a hobby, and I respect that.
There were plenty of opportunities to test things over the last 2 years and none were taken. All the PvP groups (including mine) know that CL is rampant and that FD turn a blind eye to it. SDC's evidence prooves this beyond reasonable doubt.
As for "targeted griefing" I cannot comment because I have never seen this for over 2 years playing ED, unlike combat logging which made me stop playing ED because it was happening daily.
I recently spoke to a senior member of my guild about returning to the game. He had one thing to say to me: "Combat logging is still here". So promises and PR speech are not enough. It is time for FD to act.
+1 to you sir. Myth dispelled.
Hmm. I'd strongly disagree if your point is that logging somehow equals greifing. There's a very clear distinction between the two where the griefer is intentionally trying to harass another player - they are trying to create a negative outcome or experience for another player. A logger is not doing this; they are evading, escaping or exiting a situation; they are trying to avoid a negative outcome or experience from another player. These are practically opposite to each other, no?
Combat logging is more like being an 'anti-griefer'...
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Would the PvP players prefer to see a proactive system instead? Where other players won't combat log on them - as they will never be matched with them in the first place?
Actually ad hominem is attacking a person or persons (plural) and that's what you did. In this instance calling you a hypocrite isn't an insult, just an accurate description of the behaviour you engage in.
There's clearly a strong aspect of that involved but even that doesn't trump the fact that the issue raised was about enforcing the rules of the game. It's this concept that if a player doesn't like a rule they feel empowered to ignore it that I'm irritated by; way too many people hung up on who made the post and who they play with, nothing like enough focused on the actual content.
I'm sure that if most of them uploaded a video of another player breaking the rules in some way that did affect them directly and dropped a ticket about it, they'd be the first to complain if nothing was done.
Best thing FDev can do is simply fix the problems that cause people to want to log - fix whatever it is that makes people disconnect in the first place. Stop asking for punishment as this will only drive players away from the game. Not fixing will also drive players away which FDev needs to understand and is really the main value of this thread.
Probably pointless trying to be rational in an emotion driven thread LOL!
Aye.
I feel ultimately the game has to be such that people tend not to log, though how you do that is complicated!
I think all you can really do is look at all the factors that cause people to log and try to address them individually.
The thing is staying on when you're onto a loser, whether from a player or NPC, can be a positive experience. I mean staying there despite you knowing you're a gonner, you feel you've done the right thing. The trouble is all that is completely outweighed by the all the other factors involved, from insurance, to crew loss, to bounty loss, to exploration loss, to knowing there will be no repercussion whatsoever for the guy who killed you.
There has to be a balance for people to feel like they don't want to log but while the balance is so heavily skewed in one direction it's not going to stop. These are not bad people, human nature is what it is.
Yes I suppose you can start with a proverbial stick to address the balance, and "beat" folk who log, but is this really the right solution for the good of the game? It just feels short-sighted.
I dunno, as I say it's a really difficult issue. Though I still can't help feeling 0 insurance cost for a PvP kill might be an option, as I say in beta people just have fun and aren't that bothered if they die, you see impromptu PvP outside Shinrarta, it's great!
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Last post about this just because I want you to fully grasp what an ad hominem is, for your own edification, as this is a teachable moment.
I did not attack a person or collection of persons making an argument. My statement was a stand alone declaration, not in response to an argument made by a person or persons. What you're engaging in is a false equivalency, and I'm confident you will look back at the posts and revise your position to reflect the reality of my statement.
Signed,
Sun "This lesson is on the House" Dae
I'm up but I'm a bad mod
I stick to admin stuff, approving post, moving/deleting stuff ect
sorry!
Brett C
Frontier
https://www.frontierstore.net/usd/code-of-conduct
Granted, while it does not state combat logging, it does cover exploitation of the game.