An investigation into Frontier's actions on Combat Logging

[Vorxian]

Some of the things SDC have done are arguably good for the game, but a few of the things they have done are damaging to the game. Regardless whether FD handled the tickets wrong, what they have done is likely to discourage and scare off new customers who were thinking of buying the game, and move more people into solo / PG which is presumably the opposite of what they would like. New customers are much more likely to be worried about getting griefed than about whether someone will combat log on them.

Unable to rep you again.

What these guys did was toxic. Counterproductive, and at the time, probably beating their chests like gorillas prancing after acquiring a mate.

I hope FDEV come back in response with the much needed PvE OPEN mode. That would be poetic justice at its finest.

People quip, moan, slap each other with wet fish on the forums, and no doubt the mods really have their work cut out.. It's one thing making noise on the forums, but to take things external is repulsive, venomous, detrimental to the whole game, to FDEV themselves. And why? why is the question. What is it, that drives players to do this? Well it shows that their exploits in game truly are personally motivated, fed by an unwavering hate to other players disguised as 'playing by the rules'. Well, since unfair play is quite the ruleset here, like I said it'll be poetic justice that anyone supporting this kind of 'external' behavior finds a new mode, where all their targets have migrated.

I'm sure it must have felt good to go all guns blazing, but really to the detriment of Elite Dangerous, and FDEV is low.

 

[xondk]

As I see it both "Loggers" and "Griefers" use game exploits to avoid Crime and Punishment.
Thus Fdev would have to come up with fixes for both problems.

I sort of agree, but want to point that 'loggers' are at least general as I see it, a reaction to griefers, though I will agree there are a few players that are shy of having anything bad happen to them, but they are an insanely small minority.

 

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Back on topic: cheating is cheating, and Combat Loggers (cheaters) should be suitably punished as a deterrent.

This. SDC may have gone about things the wrong way, it's also understandable that they have been frustrated with the lack of FDev following through. It's a symptom that's spiraled way out of control.

By the same token, Combat Logging is cheating no matter how you cut it and it needs to be addressed. Harshly and definitively. If you can't abide losing a ship, then don't fly the dang thing. Or better yet, learn HOW to fly the dang thing.

 

[Sucky]

Combat logging is a problem I face in games for over 17 years and nothing is done about it and I am used to it.
However when a gaming company claims it to be an exploit and they will deal with these combat loggers that have been reported but in fact
do totally nothing about it or at least it seems they don't with this "test" then I can only face palm if it's so.

FD, take every report of cheaters, hackers and exploiters serious, we don't want them in this game that we love above all other games out there!
If commanders can't handle loosing their ship in Open Play by other commanders then DO NOT LOG in Open Play please!!

 

[Lord Fondlemaid]

Do you mean the extremely bugged version of the AI with various combinations of bugged engineered weapons like machine-gun plasma accelerators, which FDEV devs acknowledged at the time?

Do you mean when FDEV themselves admitted that the NOC's weapons were bugged, or was there a bit after those bugged combinations were removed and FDEV twiddled the NPC danger levels down a bit more even after that? I distinctly remember that even I was disappointed that FDEV had reduced NPC danger after that latter part as well.

I don't mean the bugged Engineer weapons. Many people still confuse that with the original AI buff, which did in fairness happen at the same time. I mean the actually reasonably good NPC AI being dialled down as a direct result of this forum complaining that they couldn't just sit in a RES site in a turreted conda and watch Netflix whilst racking up easy bounties. This happened after the engineer super weapons bug was fixed.

That's the only part of your post I felt was worth replying to.

 

[frostypaw]

While you may disagree with my comments as they differ from your preferred narrative, it doesn't make them propaganda.

I'm not actually sure you realise you're even doing it.

But sure let's keep discussing someone's unwillingness to get up and walk rather than talking about their broken legs.

 

[DefiledDragon]

I don't agree it's 100% correct.

For me flying into newbie zones to kill new players is griefing.

Flying over a bunch of landed explorers in SRVs just having fun actually socialising in game for once, and taking them out while they're prone is griefing.

Killing prone explores coming back to the bubble with months worth of data is griefing.

Heading into a private PvE group to kill players is griefing.

You make an interesting point, however, it's not up to you or me to decide what FD consider to be griefing. It's up to FD and they've made it very clear that attacking other commanders as targets of opportunity, newbies or otherwise does not constitute griefing. I'm sure FD don't approve of people infiltrating private PvE groups to destroy players, however if I remember rightly they took no action against the members of that group and as such it's probably fair to assume they don't consider that to be griefing either.

 

[ShadowWolf Kell]

You make an interesting point, however, it's not up to you or me to decide what FD consider to be griefing. It's up to FD and they've made it very clear that attacking other commanders as targets of opportunity, newbies or otherwise does not constitute griefing. I'm sure FD don't approve of people infiltrating private PvE groups to destroy players, however if I remember rightly they took no action against the members of that group and as such it's probably fair to assume they don't consider that to be griefing either.

On the contrary they said joining a Private Group meant you had to play by their rules. So it's probably safe to assume that they DO. As I recall they banned one player for doing so. At least that's what he was spewing all over the forums when he finally was able to come back and rant about it.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

sigh This is just turning (turned) into a massive name calling contest.

Mate you said you wanted a civilised debate earlier without the name calling. what happened?

he showed his true colours?

 

[DefiledDragon]

But don't you see your very rhetoric and generic bandings of players creates the very divisions you feel are poisoning the game. You are not just creating sub-groups of "problem people" and labelling them, you're also quantifying the scale of the problem with no evidence beyond the vocal voices.

No I'm not. I've seen a good number of commanders in this thread alone justify combat logging because they see it as the only way to avoid "griefing". Their definition of griefing however is not in line with what Frontier Developments considers to be griefing. Thus, they are justifying the use of an exploit under a false pretence. Combat Logging is an exploit. FD have clearly stated this on numerous occasions. Being randomly attacked and destroyed by other commanders is not griefing. FD have also been very clear about that. Those are just the facts. Until FD make combat logging impossible, or at the least non productive (i.e. your ship stays in space for a minute or so and is open to being destroyed in your absence) then this nonsense justification will continue to be used as an excuse for what has been categorically classified as an exploit.

If the people who are combat logging chose to report the "griefer" to Frontier Developments they might get something done about it. They might even get their lost assets refunded. The reason they choose to combat log instead is likely because they know they're not being griefed and are simply choosing to exploit a weakness in the games network model to avoid destruction of their ship.

 

[StuartGT]

I'm not actually sure you realise you're even doing it.

But sure let's keep discussing someone's unwillingness to get up and walk rather than talking about their broken legs.

Alternatively: "Sure you have broken legs, but that's no excuse not to head out and see the world, that's what wheelchairs are for. And with practice, you might become a gold-winning Paralympian".

In your analogy I assume "broken legs" is "being attacked by PKers", and that such victims have no in-game escape/option ("get up and walk") without cheating?

Meanwhile, I also assume you're including the hundreds/thousands of newbie-victims that fall prey to the unknown PKers, those very PKers who Combat Log on the in-game police/vigilante Groups aiming to protect newbies? SDC are only 50 members; there are hundreds if not thousands of non-affiliated, cheating PKers.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

I don't mean the bugged Engineer weapons. Many people still confuse that with the original AI buff, which did in fairness happen at the same time. I mean the actually reasonably good NPC AI being dialled down as a direct result of this forum complaining that they couldn't just sit in a RES site in a turreted conda and watch Netflix whilst racking up easy bounties. This happened after the engineer super weapons bug was fixed.

Okay then. I agree with you there - that was the thing I also objected to.

That's the only part of your post I felt was worth replying to.

You mean, the only part of that post you had an answer for B)

o9o9o9

 

[DefiledDragon]

It's a pointless post I guess. These sort of issues create lines in the sand people never rub out. It's them vs everyone else. I get why people are frustrated, and if there was a way to make Open fair for all, I'd be behind that. I don't see it. I don't see any "side" being entirely righteous, probably because no true "side" exists. I don't support combat logging (it's a game, if you're about to lose, that's how it goes, learn from it, and move on - to PVE if it helps) or griefing (and when you're solely attacking human ships that are smaller than you who can't win, yes, you're griefing, as in world, you wouldn't make the distinction between AI and Human. If you're picking one over the other, you're not playing the game the way other players expect you too, you're being self indulgent). But solutions are near impossible, especially when we make this the old binary of PVP vs PVE.

All of that is fair comment, but when the game features a solo mode where you can play with the guarantee that you will never have to engage in PvP, or a private group mode which reduces the chance of being engaged by other commanders by 99.9% I fail to see how anybody can, in good conscience, click on "Open Play" and then combat log as soon as they are attacked by another commander. What's the point? Why play in Open if you don't want the risk of destruction? Just click Solo or play in a Private Group, but don't play in open, combat log, then come on the forums whining about it and justifying an exploit because you felt you were being "griefed". Exploiting is exploiting, there is no justification for it, especially when there are other options available to you.

 

[frostypaw]

Alternatively: "Sure you have broken legs, but that's no excuse not to head out and see the world, that's what wheelchairs are for. And with practice, you might become a gold-winning Paralympian".

In your analogy I assume "broken legs" is "being attacked by PKers", and that such victims have no in-game escape/option ("get up and walk") without cheating?

Meanwhile, I also assume you're including the hundreds/thousands of newbie-victims that fall prey to the unknown PKers, those very PKers who Combat Log on the in-game police/vigilante Groups aiming to protect newbies? SDC are only 50 members; there are hundreds if not thousands of non-affiliated, cheating PKers.

This is kinda also what I mean - that's a pretty large swathe of assumption.

Broken legs is broken C&P systems. I'm all for stopping combat logging for exactly the same end conclusions, I'm just for fixing the root cause of the situation too. I have literally no idea why you assume I'm just talking about SDC, though as the public poster boy of PKing they do a great job of showing how easy it is and encouraging the others they are as you say a tiny group

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Exploiting is exploiting, there is no justification for it,.

i totally agree... however this is surely true of all the exploits in the game - and there ARE many.

too many people (not saying you) pick and choose what exploits they think are ok and they do them, and what are not.

hell there is a 100mil c per hr video doing the rounds which is full of exploits and i know for a fact a few who whine about combat logging have done it.. they are now loaded, money is no issue for them at all... so now they will potentially grief other players and use the "so what its only credits!" despite coming into their riches through exploits.

if there is one thing which grinds my gears more than anything it is hypocrisy and imo there is a lot of that to go around.

either exploits are bad, or they are acceptable... but people should not do one on the sly and name and shame on another imo... esp when some of them are doing a form of logging which FD have green lit as ok!.

right now i choose not to play in open... because IF i was in open and some twit in a cutter decided to blap me when i was in my adder, damn straight i would be tempted to log. (note when i played in open i NEVER logged, i am just givein a reason why it is bad to attempt to force PvEers into an activity they dislike

I will say 1 thing of SDC, they are open about their antics..... and AFAIK do not hide their cmdr names...... the same is not true of all player killers in the game

 

[stripealipe]

CMDR Chris Lane put forward some nice points and ideas - hope you don't mind me posting it here, but we need more cause and effect going on to make things more dynamic.
It would make things safer for n00bs and more frenetic and dangerous for those that choose to live that kind of 'life'.


<CMDR CHRIS LANE - AS POSTED ON REDDIT> - https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDange...ved_crime_punishment_in_ed_before_my_morning/

As the title says I have created the perfect crime and punishment system that can be implemented almost entirely from what's already in the game. I do this as many of you know as a less than upstanding galactic citizen who wants a good crime and punishment system as much as anyone.

Karmic Reputation
This is something that has been seen in many games where a choice you make either gives you good or bad 'reputation'. If I murder a trader that makes me more evil, if I kill a wanted CMDR that makes me more good. Nothing real original there.

The key is that 'karmic reputaion' would have a huge impact on how you are treated in various parts of the galaxy and how everyone from NPCs to PLAYERS respond to your arrival.

System Security Core high security systems would require a CMDR to be "good" to dock. CMDRS whose reputation had gone too far into criminal territory would be KOS in those systems with docking impossible. This can be stretched further with diminished insurance payouts in those systems based on how evil your reputation is with the goal of making those areas safe hangouts for the "good" CMDRS.

The majority of systems would exist in some middle ground welcoming various levels of bad reputation with varying levels of police response. These stations would be far enough away from the strict oversight of the most important core systems to allow for some fun wrinkles. Lets say you find yourself in a system and are too evil for them to let you dock. You could offer a bribe that scales based on how evil you are to have a dubious controller let you slip past.

In as many systems as are the very high security "cuddle zones" there would be systems on the exact opposite end. Systems that require varying degrees of "evil" to dock at, and clean CMDRS who find themselves there would be labeled as narcs and find themselves wanted the way criminals are in other systems.

Missions The key to this plan is to incentivize behaviors that lead someone to either be really good or really bad. One of the ways to do this is with missions.

Same as there are factional reputation requirements for missions there would be "karmic reputation" requirements. So for example long distance smuggling missions that paid a ton of money (think robigo) would only be offered in the back water criminal hangouts and wouldn't be offered to just any low life.. they would be reserved for those people with a reputation for doing the real dirty work. The rewards would be real high for a mission to smuggle to one of the high sec core worlds because there would finally be a rick associated with the criminality.

Any other illegal missions would follow similar logic with the karma requirements and rewards scaled to the difficulty.

On the flip side there are many missions that would likely not be offered in crime dens to horrible people like me. Think long distance passenger missions, would Bob the scientist want to pay 30million credits to travel around the galaxy with me a known terrorist? The best 'good people' missions would only be offered in the high sec systems. The rewards would likely be less because the risks would be much less but you could get these missions in secure space and never worry about setting foot into any of the scary places.

Trading/mining Because criminals source their goods through 'emergent' means trade routes to and from high crime systems should be the most profitible, as would mining. Obviously that profit would come at a much higher risk.

CMDR Bounty Hunting Last thing about this plan is bounty hunting. If credits were used as the reward for killing a wanted player there is no way to make the money worth it without it being abused again as simple credit transfer. SOOOOO the key is that the reward would be reputation.

As someone who has been known to engage in 'unsolicited' PVP. If I kill a CMDR the impact on my reputation is based on that cmdrs rebuy. The more I hurt them the more it hurts my reputation (which in turn will have huge effects on the cost of my doing anything in clean space).

The key is this, if another player wants to collect my bounty for that horrible act, they are rewarded with the same amount of reputation but on the 'good' side as they made me pay for my actions. This enables a new type of gameplay as player "cops" hunt the most wanted cmdrs and in the process become the most "good" cmdrs.

While this plan is perfect as is and I await my plaque from FD and bronzed statue of myself, feel free to comment and shape it.

 

[the100thmonkey]

Combat logging is a problem I face in games for over 17 years and nothing is done about it and I am used to it.
However when a gaming company claims it to be an exploit and they will deal with these combat loggers that have been reported but in fact
do totally nothing about it or at least it seems they don't with this "test" then I can only face palm if it's so.

every game company disavows cheaters. The simple fact is that, for most people, games are something one plays as a pastime - it's something done in your free time that is entirely optional. This is an important point - if I decide I want to stop playing a game that I paid for and play as a choice, then there really isn't anything that anyone can do or say -- morally or technically -- that can override that. EULAs and terms of service and contracts might be "legally binding," but in a(n IRL) no-stakes encounter where the logger hasn't explicitly agreed to be part of someone else's Twitch stream where the streamer makes advertising revenue, I'd suggest that there's no way in hell that a court would uphold the developer's or the player's right to force a third party to remain in the game, regardless of developer policies or broader "community opinion" (which, as we've seen already, is hopelessly divided.)

 

[DefiledDragon]

PvP griefer logic:

Interdiction spamming somebody and complaining about the victiming not wanting to engage combat. This is like trying to rob or beat up somebody on the streets just for fun and complaining about the victim running away.

Except that this is a video game and PvP is an accepted part of video games that allowe PvP. Robbing people or beating them up is not an acceptable part of life and in fact it's against the law.

 

[Javert]

No I'm not. I've seen a good number of commanders in this thread alone justify combat logging because they see it as the only way to avoid "griefing". Their definition of griefing however is not in line with what Frontier Developments considers to be griefing. Thus, they are justifying the use of an exploit under a false pretence. Combat Logging is an exploit. FD have clearly stated this on numerous occasions. Being randomly attacked and destroyed by other commanders is not griefing. FD have also been very clear about that. Those are just the facts. Until FD make combat logging impossible, or at the least non productive (i.e. your ship stays in space for a minute or so and is open to being destroyed in your absence) then this nonsense justification will continue to be used as an excuse for what has been categorically classified as an exploit.

If the people who are combat logging chose to report the "griefer" to Frontier Developments they might get something done about it. They might even get their lost assets refunded. The reason they choose to combat log instead is likely because they know they're not being griefed and are simply choosing to exploit a weakness in the games network model to avoid destruction of their ship.

Well FD do have other courses of action open to them
a) They could redefine what they consider as griefing.
b) They could redefine whether combat logging is an exploit - they could say it's "unsportsmanlike behaviour" but they are not going to enforce it as an exploit. Or, they could say they don't have resources to always deal with every case of combat logging and they will deal with them on a "time allows" basis.

Personally, believe it or not, I would be ok with the Phoenix Dfire and I think even the SDC solution - if you are in combat with another player in the instance, and your connection drops, you see the rebuy screen, but with one addition.

(Now it may be as others have alluded to that it's technically very difficult to do this).

Now this is likely to generate a lot of false positives - game client crash, game bug, networking error etc, but, how often are these going to occur when you are in a PVP combat situation?

My solution to this is that on the rebuy screen you would get a number of "Lives" each year that you can use to avoid the rebuy. (this option would only be available in the above situation where you had a disconnect whilst in combat).

Once you've used up all your "lives" for that year, you then have to suck it up next time it happens. Support would no longer review combat log tickets, thus saving them a lot of time.

The upside to this is that support don't have to get involved.

The downside is that PVP players will argue it gives people a number of free combat logs each year. That's true, but to me it is better than the current situation.

However, my previous point stands is that FD are in the best position to determine the relative priority of such development changes.

 

[DefiledDragon]

Problem is some PvP gamer is gonna show up, interdict him and destroy his ship just to ruin his game. Thats the nature of PvP griefers!

Its not the excuse of "playing by the rules" its just the only sort of fun some people have is when they ruin the game for everyone else and if the rest of the community doesnt want to play by their "rules" then the big whining about combat logging starts.

Seriously, just put the G word down, you're making yourself look like some hysterical numbskull.