An investigation into Frontier's actions on Combat Logging

[Karunamon]

g SDC, as it turns out that is who OP is, are playing with g fire, and they are burning themselves and the community to the g ground.

Careful, I got warned for that. The language rules around here are even more idiotic than the rest of FD's policies. Apparently your language has to be on-par with Sesame Street levels.

Again though, the problem isn't the players, the problem is FD. We wouldn't be here having this discussion if someone would have just put their fingers on the keyboard and said "we're not going to do anything about combat logging because of reasons X, Y, and Z".

 

[Ozram]

It literally is an everything goes area, sorry to burst your bubble. If you intend to combat log to avoid the consequences of being in open, please go to mobius or switch to solo. The main issue here is that frontier is neglecting something, who knows what the next thing is? It miht be something you care about, and we definitely won't be there to help you then.

OP is spot on, the us or them mentality reigning here against PvP groups hurting their feelings to the point of breaking ToS is so bad it's hurting the game just to enforce a viewpoint, feels like the hillary convention.

So logging in solo is OK? If so, then you're a liar when you say you give a hoot about logging. Sounds more like being deprived of the kill has generated a bit of salt and frankly the gankers out there could all use their fair share of the stuff.

 

[Niin Kaunis]

To anyone condoning FDs action (or lack of) in this matter, mind telling us how would they possibly be able to recognize someone pulling the internet cable out of their computer vs. the connection stopping due to an error.

Combat logging simply can not be monitored in the current p2p system.
It would be absolutely wrong to ban a single user for having a poor connection when they are just legimitately trying to play.

EDIT: typo

 

[varonica]

Ooh I think, I think I couldn't care less about combat logging if I tried, and no, I have never done it! Complaining about combat logging because you don't get to destroy defenseless players, meh. If you are in an organised arena with combat ranking, awards and reputation then yes I could see a point about banning or punishing combat loggers, but the only thing it affects in Open is one less player for griefers to attack, it's not a big issue,but you want FDEV to pull away personal and coders from issues that do affect the game like mission bugs and other things. No wonder nothing ever gets fixed around here!

 

[veryinky]

Apparently your language has to be on-par with Sesame Street levels.

Game is rated PEGI 7. It's a game for 7 year olds.

 

[Karunamon]

To anyone condoning FDs action (or lack of) in this matter, mind telling us how would they possibly be able to recognize someone pulling the internet cable out of their computer vs. the connection stopping due to an error.

Combat logging simply can not be monitored in the current p2p system.
It would be absolutely wrong to ban a single user for having a poor connection when they are just legimitately trying to play.

EDIT: typo

They don't have to. The commonality to look for is people disconnecting when on the losing end of a fight, something which should be trivially detectable, and if your connection is so crap that you disconnect during PvP fights, you need to not play in PvP.

Someone else in here said it best - it's very interesting how many CMDR's internet connection quality is directly correlated with the health of their modules.

 

[rrobes]

I have a couple of questions on this:

1) Firstly, can they be absolutely 100% sure that FD didn't view the video? Do all views get logged even if the viewer was using some kind of anonymity techniques?

2) Were the tests conducted and reported multiple times against the same account? To me, it's pretty obvious that FD are not going to take any action against any player for a single (or even several) reports of combat logging.

Fundamentally, video evidence or not, it's impossible to conclusively prove that someone combat logged in a single case, since they can just say their internet went down, and no telemetry or video evidence can prove otherwise unless FD have a camera in their house.

Seems to me, the only way FD can handle this (if at all) is to track all reports of combat logging, and then look at it further when the same commander is reported multiple or many times. They probably have a limit on which they only look into it if the same player is reported more than x times, and x is probably quite a high number like 10 or more.

So it may also be that your tests didn't trigger the number of required reports against a single account to warrant further action. Until it hits that trigger, there is no point reviewing video evidence. Granted, if the person admitted to combat logging in the chat, and that was shown in the video, that is bigger evidence, but I highly doubt that they would operate a single strike policy anyway - even if the person admitted it they probably wouldn't ban them until they did multiple offences.

Also, you don't say whether perhaps the person doing this in the first case didn't even realize it was against the game rules.

Edit: Personally, I don't like Combat Logging and I personally wouldn't have an issue with a system where if you combat log when you are in combat, you lose your ship. You would then be allowed a number of "get out of jail" cards per year where you can get your ship reinstated - this should cover you for when the disconnect was truly not your fault. Personally I would be ok with that, but then I have a good connection. If you have a really dodgy connection, probably you won't like that solution.

The lack of a method, that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that a combat log occurred, is what FD may not have.

Everyone has dropped connections to servers, can those be differentiated from a combat log?

That combat logging is a response to unprovoked attacks in PvP?

I've read many posts saying exactly that.

These encounters are like one-party consent issues, the victim probably doesn't enjoy the attack and has considerable consequences and the attacker probably enjoys the attack and has negligible consequences. Hence, combat log.

FD may be balancing combat logging versus griefing/ganking by letting them occur through benevolent neglect. Only they know.

Or they just may have limited resources and this is a low priority item.

 

[Frijaz]

Nope, sorry to correct you. I read nowhere about the "rules" you just set up in your post. It´s become common sense for you guys that open is yours... sadly, this isn´t true. Open also belongs to me - or any other commander.

I won´t move to a PG just because you want it. Never. You know, there is something like game lore, which is an important thing in ED. You guys completely ignore all of this just to do the stuff in game you like. That´s ok for me, as long as you don´t expect others to play with you.

I think you understand pretty well.

FD are neglecting it because they see what´s the main reason for CL. It´s you guys, you with your stupid, meaningless attacks.

Just so you know, i don't actually grief, in fact, i've almost been murdered by SDC myself, the difference is that i am unfazed by it completely.

The matter here is the ToS, it's really quite simple, Open has no rules on how to play, but combat logging is officially forbidden.

If you want me to ''live'' with the way you think of griefers and keep this divisiveness alive, you'll find that i'll keep supporting them murdering and murdering away on your kind in open happily for as long as they like, since the punishment system is laughably lenient.

This is not a solution, the solution is active punishment of combat logging, far harsher in-game mechanics against griefers to discourage them from attacking traders that do not want it. But right now something is being violated, the ToS has to be enforced or it is meaningless, if you truly support FD you will want this ToS enforced for the game's own good. Then i'll be behind you all the way on griefer prevention systems in the game, right now though, i can't. You strengthen a huge divide between PvP and non-PvP, and you'll get it. But let me tell you how it's going to work out, it's going to be a years long siege with neither side buckling, and it's sad, it's going to make the community fail to work together, and it's going to kill this game.

 

[veryinky]

Someone else in here said it best - it's very interesting how many CMDR's internet connection quality is directly correlated with the health of their modules.

Yes.

I think it's time that I admitted it.

I have combat logged recently.

You see, I was firing a fuel limpet at an other ship and I bear the loss so I ripped the modem out of the socket causing a Matchmaking Server Error.

 

[Twiggier]

It literally is an everything goes area, sorry to burst your bubble. If you intend to combat log to avoid the consequences of being in open, please go to mobius or switch to solo. The main issue here is that frontier is neglecting something, who knows what the next thing is? It miht be something you care about, and we definitely won't be there to help you then.

OP is spot on, the us or them mentality reigning here against PvP groups hurting their feelings to the point of breaking ToS is so bad it's hurting the game just to enforce a viewpoint, feels like the hillary convention.

Frankly, I didn't ask for your help nor do I need your help. If the game sucks for me, I wouldn't play it, and I wouldn't pay for any more seasons of it. I don't see anything positive that your 'emergent' playstyle has provided to this game. As was listed in another post, ED has a deep backstory and RP doesn't generally include blowing up returning explorers or new CDRs for the lulz. I have never CL'd to another player or an NPC, and I've lost my share of ships, but I can understand why some people will CL when being ganked for no reason.

 

[Niin Kaunis]

They don't have to. The commonality to look for is people disconnecting when on the losing end of a fight, something which should be trivially detectable, and if your connection is so crap that you disconnect during PvP fights, you need to not play in PvP.

Someone else in here said it best - it's very interesting how many CMDR's internet connection quality is directly correlated with the health of their modules.

The problem is that some people play this game on a poor internet connection, because they can not get a better one where they are living. "they need not do pvp" is not really an option, because pvp is practically always instigated by the attacker with the defender having little say one the matter. You simply can't get any proper proof whatsoever that someone combat logged, and i would rather not have FD banning people for playing in open with poor internet connection. Looking for causality in DC timing vs how the fight was going is bound to give false positives, since there is no proper proof. It would absolutely certainly lead to false bans.

EDIT: even if they were 99% sure that someone is indeed a combat logger, even then for every 99 correct bans 1 player would get unfaily banned. That is just unacceptable.

 

[Frijaz]

Frankly, I didn't ask for your help nor do I need your help. If the game sucks for me, I wouldn't play it, and I wouldn't pay for any more seasons of it. I don't see anything positive that your 'emergent' playstyle has provided to this game. As was listed in another post, ED has a deep backstory and RP doesn't generally include blowing up returning explorers or new CDRs for the lulz. I have never CL'd to another player or an NPC, and I've lost my share of ships, but I can understand why some people will CL when being ganked for no reason.

This is not a matter of ethics or justification, this is a matter of whether a ToS should be violated or not, the answer is no.

 

[Charles Erika von Hackbeil]

Just so you know, i don't actually grief, in fact, i've almost been murdered by SDC myself, the difference is that i am unfazed by it completely.

The matter here is the ToS, it's really quite simple, Open has no rules on how to play, but combat logging is officially forbidden.

If you want me to ''live'' with the way you think of griefers and keep this divisiveness alive, you'll find that i'll keep supporting them murdering and murdering away on your kind in open happily for as long as they like, since the punishment system is laughably lenient.

This is not a solution, the solution is active punishment of combat logging, far harsher in-game mechanics against griefers to discourage them from attacking traders that do not want it. But right now something is being violated, the ToS has to be enforced or it is meaningless, if you truly support FD you will want this ToS enforced for the game's own good. Then i'll be behind you all the way on griefer prevention systems in the game, right now though, i can't. You strengthen a huge divide between PvP and non-PvP, and you'll get it. But let me tell you how it's going to work out, it's going to be a years long siege with neither side buckling, and it's sad, it's going to make the community fail to work together, and it's going to kill this game.

Don´t be afraid, this won´t kill the game at all.

It´s the ToS the gankers are actually hiding behind. They try to justifiy their actions through it.

But, problem is, not all people are so dumb they don´t see whats the real agenda in the OP´s request. Open has rules, it´s the ingame rules, like a Pilot´s Federation member doesn´t attack other members, except when there´s a bounty on them or they meet in a CZ on opposing sides. A fact you like to ignore, because it doesn´t fit the gankers plot.

Come on, it´s time to accept ED is not the usual PvP game. It will never be one. So either accept it or move on.

 

[Sole Hunter]

Looking at those two statements together, are you stating that this exercise was carried out with the deliberate goals of encouraging people to combat log (which I assume you consider cheating) and disrupting the ability of Frontier to provide support to its customers?

We want to force them to investigate properly, take the right actions and to enforce their rules against cheaters. They will most likely have no choice to reiterate their stance on combat logging due to their inaction on the matter.

To answer your question : Yes

Surely there must be someone amongst your PVP'er friends who has realworld networking architecture and implementation experience?

Yes and they think peer 2 peer is absolute garbage for games.

 

[Ozram]

Just so you know, i don't actually grief, in fact, i've almost been murdered by SDC myself, the difference is that i am unfazed by it completely.

The matter here is the ToS, it's really quite simple, Open has no rules on how to play, but combat logging is officially forbidden.

If you want me to ''live'' with the way you think of griefers and keep this divisiveness alive, you'll find that i'll keep supporting them murdering and murdering away on your kind in open happily for as long as they like, since the punishment system is laughably lenient.

This is not a solution, the solution is active punishment of combat logging, far harsher in-game mechanics against griefers to discourage them from attacking traders that do not want it. But right now something is being violated, the ToS has to be enforced or it is meaningless, if you truly support FD you will want this ToS enforced for the game's own good. Then i'll be behind you all the way on griefer prevention systems in the game, right now though, i can't. You strengthen a huge divide between PvP and non-PvP, and you'll get it. But let me tell you how it's going to work out, it's going to be a years long siege with neither side buckling, and it's sad, it's going to make the community fail to work together, and it's going to kill this game.

I agree with you in spirit, but here's the thing. People have asked for proper crime and punishment mechanics for years now so calling for it is a bit moot these days. By and large none of this has bothered me much either. I've yet to log on someone for attacking me, but this constant whinging by them has nothing to do with the TOS. That's just an excuse, most evident when they're telling people to go to solo. Reading these forums and playing the game, noticing how much effort it takes to get a combat fit thanks to engineers and seeing the penalty for having your ship destroyed rise (thanks to NPC permadeath and mission only commodities) while the penalty for station ganking remains unchanged (is now arguably even easier thanks to engineering and SLFs), enough is enough. Return the salt and have a party, I say. I hadn't even given it too much thought until reading this thread. If anything, I think everyone ought to log against them until things come to a head and fd either has to do something about it or these ganking prats give up and eff off to their own private groups. Open does not belong to them. I say log until they're so salty they choke on it.

 

[Charles Erika von Hackbeil]

We want to force them to investigate properly, take the right actions and to enforce their rules against cheaters. They will most likely have no choice to reiterate their stance on combat logging due to their inaction on the matter.

I really really hope they use their ressources for something of bigger importance.

 

[Sole Hunter]

To anyone condoning FDs action (or lack of) in this matter, mind telling us how would they possibly be able to recognize someone pulling the internet cable out of their computer vs. the connection stopping due to an error.

Combat logging simply can not be monitored in the current p2p system.
It would be absolutely wrong to ban a single user for having a poor connection when they are just legimitately trying to play.

EDIT: typo

But there's video evidence : x player log multiple time in different occasions and admit to be breaking the rules and cheating. Would you jail someone after found guilty of committing an horrible crime after strong evidence?

also logs can definitely be used against you, whether or not you log, admitting of cheating and/or breaking the TOS should get you suspended for x period of time under such detailed circumstances.

certainly, yes.

 

[Frijaz]

Don´t be afraid, this won´t kill the game at all.

It´s the ToS the gankers are actually hiding behind. They try to justifiy their actions through it.

But, problem is, not all people are so dumb they don´t see whats the real agenda in the OP´s request. Open has rules, it´s the ingame rules, like a Pilot´s Federation member doesn´t attack other members, except when there´s a bounty on them or they meet in a CZ on opposing sides. A fact you like to ignore, because it doesn´t fit the gankers plot.

Come on, it´s time to accept ED is not the usual PvP game. It will never be one. So either accept it or move on.

I've just told you, i support better in-game systems to prevent griefing being this easy, but you're too deep into the anti-SDC anti-PvP that you can't see the solution for yourself, you have to give something for something.

I'm not pro-griefers killing everyone forever, i'm pro-ToS, but if you decide to be an enemy of the ToS, i will stand with the griefers because they, unlike you, do not intend to violate written terms.

 

[veryinky]

We want to force them to investigate properly, take the right actions and to enforce their rules against cheaters.

Like they should enforce the rules against the people who exploited the buggy station defense code last month which didn't make anarchy stations enforce their no fire zones, right? The bug is patched now, but a certain group of people did make a lot of use of the exploit while it was there. You're saying that these people should be severely punished to make an example of cheaters, right?

 

[Gunnet]

To answer your question : Yes

Thank you for your honesty.