An investigation into Frontier's actions on Combat Logging

[CitizenLee]

What if FD turned around and said 'combat logging is a risk you take playing in open', which they could with no greater loss of face than when they said it'd be really hard to destroy ships? That would seem to solve all the issues addressed in the OP's post.

Is this what you want? Sounds fair to me. Can't complain about cheating, it's the consent form you signed by being in open.


I'm outspoken against NCPVP only. No problem with what SDC do amongst themselves:

Played plenty of computer games, no consoles. Quite right about the MMOs, I've no interest in them. I've played maybe three or four multiplayer games. Only one involves PVP, all consensual. I'm 38.

Anything else?

-BW

-BW

I really couldn’t care to be honest. I don’t PvP much personally but I have nothing against it and plan to get into it more when my combat ships are fully engineered (almost fully Grade 5 now, just waiting to see how they nerf balance the weapons). If someone Combat Logs on me then I’d just chalk it up as a win. Now if FD where to say it’s part of them game then I’d accept that and get on with things… much like those who are so against PvP should do. Being murdered can happen but anyone can mitigate the risks (, fly with rebuys, fit better shields, learn evasive manoeuvres, high-wake out when interdicted etc) or swap to Solo/Group. It’s really not a hard concept to grasp… yet so many don’t.

Anyway, what we think doesn’t matter because FD are totally fine with it.

I've been playing videos games since the C64 in the 80s (I'm just a little younger at 36) including most consoles but mostly PC... and I generally avoid any kind of multiplayer as it has no real interest to me (multiplayer to me was playing Streetfighter II, Tekken or Goldeneye on the sofa with my mates), and have also never played any MMOs... so Elite is pretty much the only game where I do actively play with others. Some of the best experiences I’ve had have been when being ganked or chased around systems by the “baddies”… the risk adds an element of thrill and excitement to a game that can often feel completely lacking in either. There’s only so much fun to be had blowing up NPCs, and I’d rather have radio silence from a real CMDR than hear “A big haul like that…” another 100 times from NPC pirates. So what if I die, it’s a video game where we can fit guns to spaceships… I wouldn’t expect not to.

 

[{SAS}Stalker]

I completely understand that this only applies to me, but frankly, I don't really care what exploits and such other players are using during their playtime. Their game has very little to no affect on mine, and even if someone found a gimme a billion credits key combo exploit...so what? It doesn't affect my game. As instaconda exploit...again...takes nothing away from me. There is nothing even remotely approaching zero sum where someone else's gain is my loss.

You need to step back from that insular point of view and look at how this might appear to a new player coming to the forums and reading how a dev defined exploit is deemed not only acceptable by the community but ignored by the devs. It leads to a cavalier attitude towards cheating and I speak from experience when I say this is the first community I have ever experienced in around 16 years of MP games that hasn't shunned cheaters, its beyond belief to be honest and makes my admin gland switch.

This isn't even just about combat logging. There entire culture at Frontier appears to not care about the integrity of the game via exploits of one form or another. All we get are excuses. Its not good enough.

A games company that doesn't tackle cheating or exploiting in its games. This is the first one I've come across and a CEO who has some very odd and sanctimonious views of how people play computer games. Really takes the shine off what could otherwise be a great game.

Thus^ I have never understood why the discussion about Clogging always degenerates to a PVP / PVE argument. I struggle to understand why the community condones it, its almost some warped response to the toxicity that pollutes the PVP player base that has become "well you do A, so B is therefore fine". The people who cheat by combat logging will do so even in a PVE state and it does effect everyone when people games can be centralised around (the admittedly rubbish) power play or BGS. You are meant to lose your ship in this game, its part of the plot and by cheating you ARE effecting the outcome and path of other players games.

 

[Shar]

That's the relevant media sites they were talking about in their threats?

Also, the ads. Man loses weight, woman loses weight, 2 about eyesight, 2 about 70 year olds, one about grey hair, one about testosterone, one about "3 simple steps to get any woman to obsess over you". So if this site gets someone who has cookies and ident information blocked it defaults to overweight geriatric androgens with poor eyesight who are looking for a woman to date?

Is that a common demographic for videogame top 10 websites?

I think you got the wrong site.... Thats the SDC homepage.

 

[edgar]

That's the relevant media sites they were talking about in their threats?

Also, the ads. Man loses weight, woman loses weight, 2 about eyesight, 2 about 70 year olds, one about grey hair, one about testosterone, one about "3 simple steps to get any woman to obsess over you". So if this site gets someone who has cookies and ident information blocked it defaults to overweight geriatric androgens with poor eyesight who are looking for a woman to date?

Is that a common demographic for videogame top 10 websites?

Maybe you have tracking cookies..?

 

[StuartGT]

I'd say the recent poll makes it clear that most players don't care a jot about combat logging and its a clear minority that try to make it into the cancerous game killer they claim.

It is cheating and it is an issue, but if you think banning anyone that does it will provide more targets in open I suspect you are very wrong.

Recent interest poll

Thanks for linking that poll.

Unfortunately, 658 voters is barely a hint at a representative sample. This forum attracts around 30k unique visitors a day; the ED subreddit around 15k a day; the game itself has around 200k players per fortnight. Heck, the twin of this thread on the ED subreddit has had more response than that poll: it currently has 634 points from 1132 votes¹, with 78% being upvotes², and over 900 comments. This thread has over 600 comments so far.

¹ = Reddit's crowd-ranking system for post importance
² = Upvoting is supposed to represent "this is a great discussion" although it is more commonly used as an "I agree with this OP" or "like" button

What is certain is that a section of the community sees it as an important issue and wants it resolved. Just like any other ED gameplay issue: different CMDRs have different needs and priorities.

 

[badwolf77]

Is that a common demographic for videogame top 10 websites?

Naa. Just PVP ones. ;-)

-BW

 

[Shar]

How so? I bought this game cause it said you could pirate players or bounty hunt them. Combat logging has killed those ideas....

But cause I play the game differently to you me right? lol

What do you want tears, you poor griefer, you can always pull the wings off flys.

 

[EdzUp]

OP it makes you wonder about hacking of the system as well, if they dont punish blatant combat logging with evidence even if they people are reporting themselves then whos to say they punish hackers or cheats?

We dont know if anyone has actually been shadowbanned as this information is never put out there but if they arent actually doing anything about logging then everyone will just flock to other games that do actually do something about exploits. To be honest I would let the ship remain there for a while so the attacker can actually get their kills, if the person quits via legitimate means then its fine. This way the attacker will still get their quarry so they dont feel so cheated.

 

[SpaceGodzilla]

What do you want tears, you poor griefer, you can always pull the wings off flys.

Wait you don't think piracy is a legit gameplay style..... ?

 

[Kyokushin]

Stating "nothing happened" and "no action" is not correct.

Declaration of action means nothing less and more as declaration of doing something
Yes, it is correct. Because nothing happened since two years.

SDC ticketed it and never get respond. And not observed an action on their fake accounts.

So again, no action = supporting cheating.

 

[StuartGT]

What if FD turned around and said 'combat logging is a risk you take playing in open', which they could with no greater loss of face than when they said it'd be really hard to destroy ships? That would seem to solve all the issues addressed in the OP's post.

Is this what you want? Sounds fair to me. Can't complain about cheating, it's the consent form you signed by being in open.

I would imagine the gaming media would have a field day with such a statement from FDev: "The Space Wild West? Elite Dangerous devs condone in-game cheating - will not punish exploiters and combat loggers". It'd be a PR disaster.

 

[Shar]

Wait you don't think piracy is a legit gameplay style..... ?

That very much depends on how its done, if its about harassing noobs or invading mobius no. If its done in the spirit of the game against fair pray then yes. but this is not the topic.

 

[Duckfat]

Jesus! So many whingers on this side of the forum. I'm glad I'm an explorer and don't venture over here much.

I do agree that for the most part people who complain about logging are nothing but a bunch of gankers and griefers who take pleasure in ruining other people's day.

On the one hand you have someone like Chiggy who sacrificed so much of his own RL time to save another player's ship from destruction, and then you have this miserable lot.

 

[SpaceGodzilla]

That very much depends on how its done, if its about harassing noobs or invading mobius no. If its done in the spirit of the game against fair pray then yes. but this is not the topic.

Why are you bringing up mobius and noobs lol? I pirate at CGs. Minimum half of the people I interdict who I msg before interdiction that they are being pirated combat log. I am over cheaters. Also something you official forum users will understand.... muh immersion is ruined by disappearing ships!

 

[Shar]

Anyone know what the penalty is for sending in false reports to tech support?

 

[Deleted member 110222]

Jesus! So many whingers on this side of the forum. I'm glad I'm an explorer and don't venture over here much.

I do agree that for the most part people who complain about logging are nothing but a bunch of gankers and griefers who take pleasure in ruining other people's day.

On the one hand you have someone like Chiggy who sacrificed so much of his own RL time to save another player's ship from destruction, and then you have this miserable lot.

Agree. The folks at exploration/ship discussion are so much more pleasant to be around.

 

[Weps]

Unfortunately, 658 voters is barely a hint at a representative sample.

To me it came as a surprise when the instant ship transfer forum poll was revealed to be almost identical in percentage to the large poll organized by FDEV. I too used to believe that the forums are not representative, but now I usually have a second thought about that.

The people directly impacted by combat logging are indeed a minority, but I think it should be said that they are a minority that counts. They are the kind of players involved in guilds and groups. They talk to other potential players and promote the game. They stream on Twitch and get more views because of the drama coming out of the PvP they engage in. There's an entire word-of-mouth process involving this group of players, and losing that could tax FDEV's donkey in terms of future sales. Why do you think FDEV have catered towards combat prowess in their previous content updates - engineered weapons speak for themselves.

I don't think FDEV have the luxury to come out and say: "Combat logging is a minor issue, take it or leave it!". They would lose far more than a few PvP players.

All this being said, a little bit about my background: primarily PvE, keeping to myself, have always played in Open, have never combat logged, and very concerned about the phenomenon. Why? Because I would like to think that someday group mechanics will be more fleshed out and have more impact on the game world, that I could engage in epic PvP struggles (not just individual encounters) and I would like to have a game setting where this would have meaning.

 

[Gunnet]

Wait you don't think piracy is a legit gameplay style..... ?

Unfortunately legitimate piracy is also one of the victims of widespread griefing. If griefing had not been allowed to become this much of a problem, more players would likely be more open to the idea of roleplay piracy.

But extremes breed extremes. Griefers want unlimited access to helpless non-combat ships which they can destroy without a word. So players react by wanting there to be no non-consensual combat.

I would imagine the gaming media would have a field day with such a statement from FDev: "The Space Wild West? Elite Dangerous devs condone in-game cheating - will not punish exploiters and combat loggers". It'd be a PR disaster.

The gaming media is unlikely to call exiting a game cheating or exploiting. The average reader would shrug and move on. The games they're familiar with don't place restrictions on when you can stop playing the game except within organised competitive matches. Maybe it would be a minor story if it was about CQC.

 

[Space Dandy]

I don't feel it's a big deal.

 

[Theodrid]

So, the first media outlet has the story, I'm not sure if SDC contacted them, someone else did or they picked it up from the forums, still, no matter.

SDC, you better now be damn sure what you are getting into because if it turns out that Frontier have a back catalogue and works undertaken to punish and deal with combat logging in any way you guys are now in for a bumpy ride.

As an aside, the SDC's blatant hypocrisy regarding exploits and combat logging is astounding, either SDC's or Frontier's ice is considerably thinner than it was.