An investigation into Frontier's actions on Combat Logging

[Javert]

The only thing I see in this that is right is that a lot of people are missing the point, turning it into the usual arguments.

As Oogie Boogie writes below your post, the issue is that Frontier claim they investigate fully all combat logging reports and in this case, it hasn't happened. Everything else; the Open/Solo debate, white knighting, why combat log and SDC bashing (which you seem very keen to take part in, going so far as to comparing them to a political group that is one step from breaking Godwin's law) is just misdirection by the other side who've adopted a 'forum war' mentality on anything that casts SDC in a positive light or Frontier in a negative one

Yes, they caught FD out there (at least on the face of it, assuming that the FD response yesterday morning wasn't just a stock response that had to be issued quickly due to a media request). Well done.

However I don't know whether you've read all the posts from SDC members here and on Reddit, but it's fairly clear that they consider the success here as the storm that they have stirred up, rather than having a specific objective or action that they think is needed.

All they have really achieved, at best, is that FD will make sure they click on the youtube link on all reports and then have it run in the background while they carry on with more important work.

Since we don't have, and will not have, any stats to go on, we have anecdotal reports from pirating and PVP groups that they think nobody is ever being punished for combat logging. We do have one post on this thread earlier that says that they know of at least one case where someone was shadow banned for combat logging.

Let's be honest, ordinary run of the mill players who are shadow banned for combat logging probably just suck it up and server their ban, and we will never know about it. I strongly suspect that if an SDC member is shadow banned for combat logging, they will exploit every appeal process possible to try to find a loophole. I've seen players (not to be named of course) who were complaining about other players actions then report the post for Naming and shaming when someone posted evidence that they themselves were guilty of the same thing. Muchos hypocrisy involved in these things.

Keep in mind that FD are unable to defend themselves properly against this kind of accusations since they (rightly so) can't discuss individual cases and tickets publicly, and nor are they going to reveal their process. What seems pretty sure is that it would require multiple reports against the same person, from multiple sources, for action to be taken.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I also remember when Code were pirating and it was good piracy. Yeah, there were rumours and fearmongering, but few complaints about CLing, and some good piracy experiences.

Happy days. [sad]

 

[Obsidian Ant]

I think after all is said and done - and FD hopefully mitigate issue in future - they should definitely go to play Solo/Private if they are terrified of idea of meeting human commander and losing ship to him/her. That's why modes exist.

I don't disagree with what you are saying here at all. Losing a ship, is just a part of the game - and everyone needs to accept that fact. That said, I can understand why people get upset about losing a ship.

After reading through this thread I see a lot of people rightfully upset about combat logging (it undoubtedly needs fixing). However, what I don't see are pirates, player-killers and PvPers explaining what they enjoy about combat with an unwilling and likely unskilled target. I've seen a lot of people explain why they quit out - and I've seen a lot of people explain why combat logging should be prevented. There's all manner of statements and conversations and adjective ridden accusations about the nature of "gankers", "murderers" as well as "cowards", and "carebears".

I've seen the non-PvP people explain why they get upset - and then clearly defining what they do enjoy about the game.

What I haven't seen is the PvP people explaining what they enjoy about an unwilling target being forced into combat? There's been a lot said about "wasting time", and accusations against "sore losers" - I can understand and relate to that, but that doesn't explain the "why". I can also totally relate to the enjoyment and excitement of a player vs player fight. But the thing here, is that the combat-loggers clearly do not want to fight, so if they actually stayed in the game (instead of quitting out), and then awaited the interdiction and engaged in the combat - chances are they would be rubbish and a very weak target. I'm really keen to hear what the "aggressor" enjoys about this particular scenario?

 

[xondk]

Back in the day when there was piracy at CGs (pretty much just gankers now as FD have secured their position through more than favourable mechanics like extreme engineering and soon Grom's sweet trap of joy and effectively total lack of consequences) it was actually kind of fun to interact with pirates. I remember getting caught out in my old Python and it was a fair exchange. Gave up some of my cargo and was allowed to carry on. It was full wing too, and organised. Good luck with that now. Just interdictions and murder or the attempt thereof. Good luck getting gud. It's the extreme engineering that's so Gud. That and the numbers game... for me, the last straw was NPCs without escape pods.
Seriously FD, give it a rest... or at least give us the option to block people out of our instances. It would work for all parties. Gankers can block loggers and everyone else who's sick of it can ignore gankers and then Open will be for everyone. Quickest fix to the whole issue until you can address crime and punishment in the game.
Seriously, all these get Gud statements are such a joke. They are in ships so engineered it makes no difference the skill of a player. There's no fighting that and forcing players out of open is lame and insulting and toxic... and so very well endorsed. It's lame.

I agree, yet I don't see FD as having given people any specific 'ganking' weapons, grom's weapons are very useful against NPC's as well, the problem are those people that misuse it and gladly so, because they want a conflict with other players and aren't interested in anything else. And I entirely agree with the whole concept of 'get gud' having absolutely no leg to stand on, because the people saying it, are actually those that do not want to 'get gud' they aren't looking for a challenge or such, they are looking for easy victims.

So don't blame Frontier for a choice some people chose to make, sure they might make that choice more appealing to those already wanting to chose it, by giving weapons that are easier to misuse.
But we'd end up with a very sterile game if we couldn't have anything that didn't have a chance of being overpowered, true 'balance' is near impossible.

 

[StuartGT]

Let's try a thought experiment...

Assuming that all the technical problems are magically solved overnight and combat logging was eradicated in the next patch. What would happen?

I would posit the following, a sudden influx of players getting killed in open from non-consensual PvP eventually leading to more of them leaving open play and further marginalizing the number of victims available in that mode.

Incorrect. Here's a copy pasta of my response to Mobius on the ED Reddit which is equally relevant here:


While it's understandable that you won't have noticed as it's not an issue that affects Private Group, but PKer groups such as SDC et al are not the only proponents of harsh punishments for Combat Logging. How else could the Investigation Post have been voted up so high? (The original OP on Reddit gained 1k+ upvotes, almost 1400 comments in 36hr, and gilded 5 times)

You may have heard that the newbie sector, CGs, and other galaxy hotspots are the hunting grounds of the hundreds, if not thousands, of non-affiliated Player Killers and griefers. While groups like Adles Armada, Iridium Wing, etc aim to protect CMDRs from such PKers, they are powerless as the vast majority of their targets task-kill once interdicted. This scares off new CMDRs more than any activities by SDC et al, who predominantly attack "high salt" targets and locations for lulz.

Harsh punishment for Combat Logging helping the in-game "policing" by the friendly Player Groups is needed as a deterrent against those PKers continuing their "game killing" activities. This is the bigger picture many don't see as they argue about whether Combat Logging against SDC is justified or not.

Not to mention player pirates who have found their preferred playstyle ruined.

Proper Crime & Punishment mechanics are also required of course, but won't solve this issue alone.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

What I haven't seen is the PvP people explaining what they enjoy about an unwilling target being forced into combat? There's been a lot said about "wasting time", and accusations against "sore losers" - I can understand and relate to that, but that doesn't explain the "why". I can also totally relate to the enjoyment and excitement of a player vs player fight. But the thing here, is that the combat-loggers clearly do not want to fight, so if they actually stayed in the game (instead of quitting out), and then awaited the interdiction and engaged in the combat - chances are they would be rubbish and a very weak target. I'm really keen to hear what the "aggressor" enjoys about this particular scenario?

You know Obsidian I am not right person to ask about that. I don't engage in PvP, and I don't support 'sociopath' role in any shape or form. However, I don't expect FD to eradicate it outright of ED universe. So we need better rules and mechanisms to deal with it badly. No buts about that. No banning. No public shaming. Just consequences - refuel/repair 1000 ly away from where you are and be done with.

As for those who attack players just for kicks - they are usually too bored to hang out in forums/reddit in my opinion. I don't expect to reason with them really. There should be consequences - heavy ones - for pushing play style like this in game. Period. And I hope we will get one when CP update comes around (because last time I remember that thread at the beginning of the year had all information FD might need).

But returning at my original post - at the end there will be situation when you will lose your ship and while you will know attacker will face consequences, people still feel salty about their property lost. Question is - will it be enough? Good discussion to have.

 

[StuartGT]

So we have all now come to the shocking conclusion that this whole 'story' was blown up simply for a minority to push their agenda in the interest of their own play style?

See my previous comment. With your position on these forums, it would be wiser to take a less blinkered view of the overall playerbase, and refrain from stating a biased opinion during a debate (or use "mod hat off" perhaps?).

 

[frostypaw]

What I haven't seen is the PvP people explaining what they enjoy about an unwilling target being forced into combat? There's been a lot said about "wasting time", and accusations against "sore losers" - I can understand and relate to that, but that doesn't explain the "why". I can also totally relate to the enjoyment and excitement of a player vs player fight. But the thing here, is that the combat-loggers clearly do not want to fight, so if they actually stayed in the game (instead of quitting out), and then awaited the interdiction and engaged in the combat - chances are they would be rubbish and a very weak target. I'm really keen to hear what the "aggressor" enjoys about this particular scenario?

Watch some SDC videos on YouTube and it'll all become tragically clear why they're not speaking up.

 

[Phoenix_Dfire]

What I haven't seen is the PvP people explaining what they enjoy about an unwilling target being forced into combat? There's been a lot said about "wasting time", and accusations against "sore losers" - I can understand and relate to that, but that doesn't explain the "why". I can also totally relate to the enjoyment and excitement of a player vs player fight. But the thing here, is that the combat-loggers clearly do not want to fight, so if they actually stayed in the game (instead of quitting out), and then awaited the interdiction and engaged in the combat - chances are they would be rubbish and a very weak target. I'm really keen to hear what the "aggressor" enjoys about this particular scenario?

When we put some of the SDC on Lave Radio, they just said did it for the laughs. Everybody who saw those videos where the SDC attacked Mobious, saw they did it because they genuinely enjoyed causing the other players pain. Even when the Code where guests on Ed's stream;- some of the attitude to other players were despicable. Player on Player attacks in civilized system have to be punished more harshly than they are at the moment. The new Hatch breakers in 2.2 should make piracy less of a blood bath for the victim and more of a fun challenge for the pirate (with a much less of a fine). However, full on player vs player killing outside of Lawless, combat zones or powerplay, should be harshly dealt with. Hopefully using game mechanics forcing these players to the Anarchy systems where they belong.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

See my previous comment. With your position on these forums, it would be wiser to take a less blinkered view of the overall playerbase, and refrain from stating a biased opinion during a debate (or use "mod hat off" perhaps?).

He is not FD representative, so his opinion is him to have.

 

[I PORKCH0P I]

However, if FDEV want any more of my money - and I would be doing so and have done already, as despite having a Lifetime Expansion Pass I have bought a second non-LTEP account (which I don't play on) - then they need to keep me interested in the bloody game.

Right now I have stopped playing it. Why?

Because I realised I'm not having fun. Right now there is nothing to keep me clicking that PLAY button on the launcher. This seems to be more than just burnout. The game as it currently stands is shallow - the game mechanics are shallow. Griefer groups like SDC are running rings around FDEV. FDEV are constantly fracking things up like this recent sop to the griefers with the fixed and gimbal 'rebalance'. Exploration is fracking grim and no longer holds any sort of appeal. The ED universe is a dystopian hellhole. In ED, non-criminals are punished severely and criminals are hardly punished at all. And so on and so on....

So yeah - FDEV have my money on the stuff I bought and paid for so far. That money they have won't last for long though. Servers and staff need to get paid, FDEV need to keep getting money from me and other players, so if they want that to happen, they better pull their socks up and start spending time on sorting the bloody game out as it stands, rather than spending time on low-hanging fruit like a gimbal nerf and fixed buff, for example.

New content is great like ship launched fighters, and starport interiors, for example. Fine. But if they persist in not fixing for example stuff like this situation : "Ganker/griefing playerbase does not get punished and their victims get overly punished just for trying to play the game that FDEV naively envisaged it should be played" : then I won't be spending time in the dystopian hell and will find other, better things to do with my time. And I certainly won't be giving them any more money.

Sadly these are my thoughts exactly , at the moment I check in to the forums one or twice a week to see if anything worthwhile has changed .

 

[iFred]

I don't disagree with what you are saying here at all. Losing a ship, is just a part of the game - and everyone needs to accept that fact. That said, I can understand why people get upset about losing a ship.

After reading through this thread I see a lot of people rightfully upset about combat logging (it undoubtedly needs fixing). However, what I don't see are pirates, player-killers and PvPers explaining what they enjoy about combat with an unwilling and likely unskilled target. I've seen a lot of people explain why they quit out - and I've seen a lot of people explain why combat logging should be prevented. There's all manner of statements and conversations and adjective ridden accusations about the nature of "gankers", "murderers" as well as "cowards", and "carebears".

I've seen the non-PvP people explain why they get upset - and then clearly defining what they do enjoy about the game.

What I haven't seen is the PvP people explaining what they enjoy about an unwilling target being forced into combat? There's been a lot said about "wasting time", and accusations against "sore losers" - I can understand and relate to that, but that doesn't explain the "why". I can also totally relate to the enjoyment and excitement of a player vs player fight. But the thing here, is that the combat-loggers clearly do not want to fight, so if they actually stayed in the game (instead of quitting out), and then awaited the interdiction and engaged in the combat - chances are they would be rubbish and a very weak target. I'm really keen to hear what the "aggressor" enjoys about this particular scenario?

You are my man

May I add something: The keyword here is "Unwanted PvP". Example: Alien ruins were discovered and 1 hour after the coordinates were made public you were practically not able to play there in Open without being shot by a heavily engineered Cutter/Corvette. And my question here is: Where is the fun for those players to shoot down Explorer-Ships? What are the arguments? What is the outcome?

There are no arguments. End of Story. The outcome is: Every player that was shot down simply doesn´t play in open again. End of story.

Result for the PvPers: An empty Open Galaxy.

 

[Charles Erika von Hackbeil]

See my previous comment. With your position on these forums, it would be wiser to take a less blinkered view of the overall playerbase, and refrain from stating a biased opinion during a debate (or use "mod hat off" perhaps?).

Guys, don´t you think you should talk about that in a private conversation?

 

[Ozram]

I agree, yet I don't see FD as having given people any specific 'ganking' weapons, grom's weapons are very useful against NPC's as well, the problem are those people that misuse it and gladly so, because they want a conflict with other players and aren't interested in anything else. And I entirely agree with the whole concept of 'get gud' having absolutely no leg to stand on, because the people saying it, are actually those that do not want to 'get gud' they aren't looking for a challenge or such, they are looking for easy victims.

So don't blame Frontier for a choice some people chose to make, sure they might make that choice more appealing to those already wanting to chose it, by giving weapons that are easier to misuse.
But we'd end up with a very sterile game if we couldn't have anything that didn't have a chance of being overpowered, true 'balance' is near impossible.

I don't think this is the intention that fd had, but it is the result. Until C&P can be worked out I think the Block option should block players from being instanced together. I do wonder if this would result in SDC members being wholly isolated after a while. Either way, I'm pretty sure it wold calm a lot of issues down fast. It is also a very simple fix and would likely take longer for them to pass it through their channels and agree upon than it would take to implement.

 

[Knightshark]

But returning at my original post - at the end there will be situation when you will lose your ship and while you will know attacker will face consequences, people still feel salty about their property lost. Question is - will it be enough? Good discussion to have.

Indeed a good discussion to have. I think the answer is yes. Once players know that normal/high sec systems are save, at least in SC and around stations, they will be more confident. Now, you have to expect to be killed anytime and anywhere in Open, in particular around the places where stuff happens. That is a no go. Once, players know that they can decide how much risk they take (plot long route through normal+ sec systems, or direct route through anarchy), they will be more conscious about player interactions. They will know that being interdicted in normal+ sec will unlikely result in their death, and not CL. In anarchy they will know that anything can happen, they can still CL, but then they should also face consequences.

 

[frostypaw]

Guys, don´t you think you should talk about that in a private conversation?

Public belittlement is apparently fine. It's been quite the reminder of why I barely look at reddit

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Harsh punishment for Combat Logging helping the in-game "policing" by the friendly Player Groups is needed as a deterrent against those PKers continuing their "game killing" activities. This is the bigger picture many don't see as they argue about whether Combat Logging against SDC is justified or not.

Not to mention player pirates who have found their preferred playstyle ruined.

Proper Crime & Punishment mechanics are also required of course, but won't solve this issue alone.

Thinking about it completely the wrong way though.

Implementing a Crime & Punishment system and a Karma system comes before anything else, logically speaking.

The result of implementing that before anything else would have these effects :

1) Player Killers start to accrue increasingly negative legal reputation in-game as they will naturally try to continue on their pointless murder sprees. Eventually, this will start to drive them out of supposedly high security areas - making those actual high security areas.

2) Combat loggers start to accrue increasingly negative Karma. Karma should start at 0, and accrue only in the negative direction, this would prevent stacking up a bank of positive Karma. Negative Karma should eventually decay back to 0 at a suitable rate of decay. - Now, this depends on how FDEV handle Karma - but I would imagine a Karma system to trigger something akin to "if you reach a certain threshold of negative Karma, you will be shadowbanned for a period of time. If, after coming out of that shadowban, you accrue more bad Karma, the shadowban period will increase. If you persist in accruing, either permanent shadowban or simply banned from the game for a while. If you even then keep accruing bad Karma , permabanned". Dunno. That's one idea - there may and will be better ones. Something anyway which deters the combat logging behaviour.

3) PvP Pirating as an in-game career should become revived as a direct result of the above.

4) PvP bounty hunting should become revived as a direct result of the above.

I dunno - this all seems just so obviously logical and straightforward to me.

 

[StuartGT]

Guys, don´t you think you should talk about that in a private conversation?

When i see moderators publicly single out sections of the community (deservedly or not), i feel it's important to publicly call them out on it. I'd expect the same for myself on the ED Reddit where we allow it too (constructive feedback) - it doesn't break any forum rules. If I understand correctly, "Mod hat off" is used for personal (controversial) opinion, and a modteam should try to be publicly impartial on heated topics.

- - - Updated - - -

Thinking about it completely the wrong way though.

Why?

Implementing a Crime & Punishment system and a Karma system comes before anything else, logically speaking.

Agreed, and I didn't say it shouldn't. However, the thread topic is Combat Logging, hence the focus of my post.

 

[c00ky1970]

What I haven't seen is the PvP people explaining what they enjoy about an unwilling target being forced into combat

2 reasons:

Firstly, there are 2 types of PvPer:

Those that want to challenge themselves against other PvPers or Roleplay player interaction in piracy.

And then there are Those that just want to dominate and destroy.

The former will articulate about the issues about CLogging and speak up about issues about the ship/weapon meta.

The latter are just there to give themselves enjoyment, they don't see a need to justify actions as the game let's them do it, it's a legitimate pastime, why bother discussing this at all.

Second reason is that currently killing players is a legitimate gameplay experience, so why have to justify something that the game allows?

I also remember an SDC interview on Lave Radio after they attacked Möbius players where the chap confirmed that SDC members have a wide variance in their in game ideology and some are just in it to kill players, he even described them as "scary".

Until there is an overarching framework that sets out punishment that curtails the actions of those who currently are doing nothing wrong in the eyes of the current game law, then you won't hear a peep out of them.

Risk and reward should encompass all aspects of the game including PvE, PvP in all it's variants.

 

[Cosmos]

I don't disagree with what you are saying here at all. Losing a ship, is just a part of the game - and everyone needs to accept that fact. That said, I can understand why people get upset about losing a ship.

After reading through this thread I see a lot of people rightfully upset about combat logging (it undoubtedly needs fixing). However, what I don't see are pirates, player-killers and PvPers explaining what they enjoy about combat with an unwilling and likely unskilled target. I've seen a lot of people explain why they quit out - and I've seen a lot of people explain why combat logging should be prevented. There's all manner of statements and conversations and adjective ridden accusations about the nature of "gankers", "murderers" as well as "cowards", and "carebears".

I've seen the non-PvP people explain why they get upset - and then clearly defining what they do enjoy about the game.

What I haven't seen is the PvP people explaining what they enjoy about an unwilling target being forced into combat? There's been a lot said about "wasting time", and accusations against "sore losers" - I can understand and relate to that, but that doesn't explain the "why". I can also totally relate to the enjoyment and excitement of a player vs player fight. But the thing here, is that the combat-loggers clearly do not want to fight, so if they actually stayed in the game (instead of quitting out), and then awaited the interdiction and engaged in the combat - chances are they would be rubbish and a very weak target. I'm really keen to hear what the "aggressor" enjoys about this particular scenario?

Its implied when you play the game that combat is a part of it. Indeed, the game has a ranking system based upon mass murder, where we pilot ever increasingly heavily armed spaceships. To this end its hard to understand why folks go out of their way to only play as a non-combatant. Thats a choice of course but expecting others to not shoot at you is baffling particuarly when the game is set in a cutthroat galaxy, set against a backdrop of raw anarchy and powerplays.

As for the purpose, its largely the only thing that gives meaning to a style of play. The NPCs are just bots and destroying them is a means to an end, its certainly not a rewarding or challenging experience. Its also a multiplayer game and conflict between players creates for an interesting dynamism and spontaneity that the NPCs don't offer. Frontier have sadly gone out of their way to remove meaningful player adversity from the game as much as they can without actually making it impossible. Many of the guys from SDC used to try and be pirates but the game makes that impossible, and with solo and pg theres no need to folks to require escorts for there trade journey, and no eco system for players to become player bounty hunters. Instead its just full on hatred towards anyone who shoots at someone else.

DB on his anti griefer crusade has ironically created players who are disaffected, who have been battered with years of verbal abuse and mudslnging (yes here on this forum) which has maligned their style of play, and them personally. Imagine, if you as an explorer recieved constant abuse because of how you were playing the game. Every time you looked at the forums there was a thread on how you were killing the game, so on and so forth. This has created a lot of resentment. I've no doubt it plays its part in some motivation.

Nevertheless there is a short story you should read that was linked to me on reddit. I happen to think its an excellent and amusing read, but it shows how one experience can be interpreted in totally different ways, and I think it might be the nub of the endless conflict here over the game. We look at things very differently, I mean look around the world, conflict is everywhere:

The Veil of Madness, really loved reading this:

Spoiler

From a reddit thread here: https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/56yt5x/in_the_brabenverse_space_crazy_is_real_and/

That all said bud, its a cutthroat galaxy.. What do you expect? Flowers and a big hug? I tend to save that for my girlfriend.