An investigation into Frontier's actions on Combat Logging

Publicly calling people out for disrespecting members of the community shows the overall community that all voices are equally deserving of respect.

On Reddit we moderate posts & comments that contain disrespect, as it's one of our defined rules. CMDRs who are rude to others soon learn to not be if they want their opinions to be seen by others.

What I see on that subreddit is SDC continuously attempting to mine subreddit salt, every day. I also note there are SDC moderators. I don't think that's a particularly fantastic idea. Sure, you're moderating reddit comments which are showing disrespect and sure, you're moderating comments from posters who are stupidly having a meltdown - after being provoked by some SDC commenter. But I notice a pattern of basically ignoring comments from SDC members absolutely designed to bait the sorts of meltdown replies that get moderated severely.

These forums may have a reputation of being overly-moderated, but the reasons for that are down to FDEV also producing games for kids and as such, there will be kids perusing these forums.
 
Publicly calling people out for disrespecting members of the community shows the overall community that all voices are equally deserving of respect.

On Reddit we moderate posts & comments that contain disrespect, as it's one of our defined rules. CMDRs who are rude to others soon learn to not be if they want their opinions to be seen by others.

I was moderated on reddit a few weeks ago by the SDC mod who deleted my post whilst leaving the original insulting post!!!! so you have no credibility

Reddit is just a platform for those who cannot help themselves from exercising "free speech" even though most of the time it is highly insulting but because of where it is based (in the USofA) it is allowed!!!

I rarely visit reddit as it just seems to have been taken over by PvPer's and player killers who constantly go on about this very subject
and with the subreddit owned by "unsavoury player group" members called combat loggers

this is old I am bored of hearing it and I dont know why I responding anymore if only to remind people that they are not as "squeaky clean" as they believe they are

sorry if expressing my "opinion" is against the rules of the forum .... why is this post still alive anyway? it should have been killed of 24 hours ago
 
Yeah, nothing they could do about it. poor puppies. Nastly little DB.

They started off meaning so well, but this forum warped their feeble little minds.

Solo players are hiding, cowards, cheating the BSG, etc etc

So why don't Solo players go out killing?

I can't quite fathom why people define themselves in little pigeon holes.. eg, a solo player, a trader, an explorer. We can switch modes at any time, we can trade, explore and shoot at things at the drop of a hat. Why restrict ourselves to one thing?

I could define myself as a fruit and veg delivery driver and play like a mundane lemon. Thing is I can do that in the real world, and its not much fun. Games allow people to explore behaviour thats is not avaiable to them in the real world.

If given the choice in life would you accept your miserable little lot or take the option to become a player, a rich at with beautfiul women throwing themselves at you? There is a bit of escapism about games, after all why was it with SWTOR that almost everyone wanted to play as a Sith?
 
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Whether as part of an official statement or otherwise, it's honestly disappointing to hear a Frontier employee publicly using the veiled derisive language of anti-social players.

Brett C. told in the most elegant and fully proffesional way as it is possible how things are. As in the cheese or in the checkers, or Warhammer - a player just need to take a little time and learn basic game rules.
 
Wow, so I've been off Elite for a few months, looks like things really took a turn for the worst.... Anyways, when is 2.3 due out?
 
I can't quite fathom why people define themselves in little pigeon holes.. eg, a solo player, a trader, an explorer. We can switch modes at any time, we can trade, explore and shoot at things at the drop of a hat. Why restrict ourselves to one thing?

I could define myself as a fruit and veg delivery driver and play like a mundane lemon. Thing is I can do that in the real world, and its not much fun. Games allow people to explore behaviour thats is not avaiable to them in the real world.

If given the choice in life would you accept your miserably little lot or take the option to become a player, a rich at with beautfiul women throwing themselves at you? There is a bit of escapism about games, after all why was it with SWTOR that almost everyone wanted to play as a Sith?
Can I take that as a "Good point Ziggy, although it could have been made better"? :)
 
What I see on that subreddit is SDC continuously attempting to mine subreddit salt, every day. I also note there are SDC moderators. I don't think that's a particularly fantastic idea. Sure, you're moderating reddit comments which are showing disrespect and sure, you're moderating comments from posters who are stupidly having a meltdown - after being provoked by some SDC commenter. But I notice a pattern of basically ignoring comments from SDC members absolutely designed to bait the sorts of meltdown replies that get moderated severely.

We have one SDC moderator, in our varied modteam of ten; four are members of different Player Groups. I'm a lone-wolf personally. We find this strikes the appropriate balance across the various playstyles of ED.

The whole modteam can be messaged via the sidebar, or by clicking the "message mods" link in a mod-removal-reason-comment.

These forums may have a reputation of being overly-moderated, but the reasons for that are down to FDEV also producing games for kids and as such, there will be kids perusing these forums.
Moderation of foul language on these forums is understandable and I agree with it.
 
On Reddit we moderate posts & comments that contain disrespect, as it's one of our defined rules. CMDRs who are rude to others soon learn to not be if they want their opinions to be seen by others.

Reddit's whole "thing" is posters having to make sure they toe the line to have a shot at their opinion being seen. If this forum was like Reddit, all the posts of SDC members and their supporters would be hidden behind faintly visible lines of text to the effect of "click here if you really want to see this very bad post".
 
You might be onto something here.

I also remember when Code were pirating and it was good piracy. Yeah, there were rumours and fearmongering, but few complaints about CLing, and some good piracy experiences.

Then SDC came along, and with their activities, the fear factor went up. The more "events" they did, the more the fear grew, and with Code being less active, or perhaps just being overshadowed, people stopped assuming that an interdiction was a piracy and instead started assuming an interdiction was going to be a gank.

It would be highly ironic in the main reason so many people combat log these days is because of SDC's actions and reputation gained over the last year.

I'm sure some might point out there was combat logging before SDC were around, i'm sure there was. But the whole hysteria about combat logging only seemed to really take off after SDC's formation.



I think that we would all agree that combat logging is not a intended game mechanic, by deliberate design or in the spirit of the game, therefore it is a problem. Combat logging therefore falls into two broad categories regarding those who play in open and those who play in solo.

Solo:

Those who choose to combat log against AI with the considered purpose of stopping combat, to avoid the risk of loss are still, be it only themselves cheating, Like it or not this is a simple fact. I would also state that a deliberate design choice was made by the design team, too balance the AI thus there is no deliberate "seal clubbing style Ganking" by NPC's, in fact it is very much the opposite. That said discussion about AI balance issues is a fair subject for debate and in reality it will always be under review.


Open:

Those who choose to combat log against other players with the considered purpose of stopping combat, to avoid the risk of loss are cheating, again like it or not this is a simple fact. Here lies the problem, while I personally despise "seal clubbing" and those who see it as "fun" and by extension the Forum Meta Game, that then also tends too be followed by those who have such play style, is irrelevant. Deliberate combat logging is cheating.

if you choose to play in open the possibility of being "Ganked" is always going to be a possible consequence. As you rightly say the "Code" seemed to not have deliberately embrace "seal clubbing as part of there chosen "pirate" game style choice, unlike the "SDC". Again my personal view of that play style is irrelevant as is disliking the ethos of the "SDC" both in Game and here on the forums.

Playing in open then is to acknowledge that there may be a chance of being "Ganked" like it or not. There is no point complaining then, when there are available and alternate choices be it "group" or "solo". By the same token if open then becomes a less inhabited by players, those who choose to "Gank" cannot then complain that the game is unfair too them. Regardless of what choice player make in selecting a mode the BGS continues to be the core of the mechanics of the game, which runs regardless of if it was only 2 players in open and 1,000, in either solo of groups.

While there is a relevant discussion on the ineffectiveness then of trying to effect blockades against some CG, and how that may then effect some aspect of BGS, again is a legitimate subject for debate, my personal thoughts are any such issues would have a short effect but in the larger and longer term, I would safely say that it make no significant difference. Thus perhaps when comparisons are then made to EVE, it is too compare apples with oranges, and that design team continues to avoid and reject incorporating such mechanic's so as too allow Elite Dangerous to be completely different from EVE.

Personally I think much more is being made about this subject, as with some other recent differing "issues" as part of the "Forum Meta Games" being run by some, for a variety of reasons, some good, some bad. While the wider player base just get on and play and enjoy the game as it is designed and operates mechanically and under the rule set, the design team have decided on.

TL;DR Combat logging is cheating like it or not and "Ganking" like it or not is an allowed game mechanic in open.


edited for spelling and grammar
 
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Its implied when you play the game that combat is a part of it. Indeed, the game has a ranking system based upon mass murder, where we pilot ever increasingly heavily armed spaceships. To this end its hard to understand why folks go out of their way to only play as a non-combatant. Thats a choice of course but expecting others to not shoot at you is baffling particuarly when the game is set in a cutthroat galaxy, set against a backdrop of raw anarchy and powerplays.

As for the purpose, its largely the only thing that gives meaning to a style of play. The NPCs are just bots and destroying them is a means to an end, its certainly not a rewarding or challenging experience. Its also a multiplayer game and conflict between players creates for an interesting dynamism and spontaneity that the NPCs don't offer. Frontier have sadly gone out of their way to remove meaningful player adversity from the game as much as they can without actually making it impossible. Many of the guys from SDC used to try and be pirates but the game makes that impossible, and with solo and pg theres no need to folks to require escorts for there trade journey, and no eco system for players to become player bounty hunters. Instead its just full on hatred towards anyone who shoots at someone else.

DB on his anti griefer crusade has ironically created players who are disaffected, who have been battered with years of verbal abuse and mudslnging (yes here on this forum) which has maligned their style of play, and them personally. Imagine, if you as an explorer recieved constant abuse because of how you were playing the game. Every time you looked at the forums there was a thread on how you were killing the game, so on and so forth. This has created a lot of resentment. I've no doubt it plays its part in some motivation.

Nevertheless there is a short story you should read that was linked to me on reddit. I happen to think its an excellent and amusing read, but it shows how one experience can be interpreted in totally different ways, and I think it might be the nub of the endless conflict here over the game:

The Veil of Madness, really loved reading this:


That all said bud, its a cutthroat galaxy.. What do you expect? Flowers and a big hug? I tend to save that for my girlfriend.

That's an awesome story! Science Fiction is wonderful, because it always manages to highlight elements of the human condition.

I agree, PvP and more specifically player-killers have gained a bad rep. Some of it undeserved. Frontier haven't helped this at all...and actually encouraged it with many contradictions both in game-play and marketing.

I understand that player-killers would get upset at all of this nonsense pointed at them. It makes sense that they would feel this way.

Yes, there are players out there that are undoubtedly misunderstood. Personally I feel exploration is vastly misunderstood in the game, most especially by Frontier. Trading is also misunderstood, all it really is it hauling.

I agree PvPers are misunderstood, I also agree they are made out to be the bogeyman. You are quite right, that when no options are left, some people enjoy being misunderstood and play the part. But I don't think you really addressed the issue I raised: I'd love to hear explained specifically what certain players enjoy about interdicting a target that is unwilling and unable to defend themselves? I'm not talking about general PvP here - because I totally understand PvP among players that are up for the task...it's fun, engaging, it's a rush...and it's competitive. I'm not talking about the person playing in open and willingly taking the interdiction and destruction. I'm also not talking about the notion of a cut-throat galaxy - we know the game is a dangerous place, and well it should be, but this still doesn't explain the point I raised. What I am talking about is the thought and emotional process going on in the aggressors mind. What specifically do they enjoy about attacking a target that clearly doesn't want to be attacked, and is unable or incapable of defending themselves? No one - as yet - has actually explained that beyond the "they do it for laughs" or "it's a power trip". Surely there's more to it than that, right?
 
I was moderated on reddit a few weeks ago by the SDC mod who deleted my post whilst leaving the original insulting post!!!! so you have no credibility

Reddit is just a platform for those who cannot help themselves from exercising "free speech" even though most of the time it is highly insulting but because of where it is based (in the USofA) it is allowed!!!

I rarely visit reddit as it just seems to have been taken over by PvPer's and player killers who constantly go on about this very subject
and with the subreddit owned by "unsavoury player group" members called combat loggers

this is old I am bored of hearing it and I dont know why I responding anymore if only to remind people that they are not as "squeaky clean" as they believe they are

sorry if expressing my "opinion" is against the rules of the forum .... why is this post still alive anyway? it should have been killed of 24 hours ago

Sorry, but on the ED Reddit we allow all members of the community to post and discuss their playstyles, with community up/down voting the importance of such content. SDC are only 50 members, out of our daily traffic of ~20k users and ~2k commenters.

As the mod-removal-reason-comment auto-posted states when a mod performs an action:
Thank you for your submission! Unfortunately, it has been removed for the following reason(s):

REMOVAL REASON

If you feel this action was taken in error, would like better clarification, or need further assistance, please message the mods (do not reply to this comment). Please remember to check the rules page before doing so. Thank you!
The link creates a modteam-wide message for communication.

If you want to link to the removed post, I will happily take a look at it.
 
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rootsrat

Volunteer Moderator
That's an awesome story! Science Fiction is wonderful, because it always manages to highlight elements of the human condition.

I agree, PvP and more specifically player-killers have gained a bad rep. Some of it undeserved. Frontier haven't helped this at all...and actually encouraged it with many contradictions both in game-play and marketing.

I understand that player-killers would get upset at all of this nonsense pointed at them. It makes sense that they would feel this way.

Yes, there are players out there that are undoubtedly misunderstood. Personally I feel exploration is vastly misunderstood in the game, most especially by Frontier. Trading is also misunderstood, all it really is it hauling.

I agree PvPers are misunderstood, I also agree they are made out to be the bogeyman. You are quite right, that when no options are left, some people enjoy being misunderstood and play the part. But I don't think you really addressed the issue I raised: I'd love to hear explained specifically what certain players enjoy about interdicting a target that is unwilling and unable to defend themselves? I'm not talking about general PvP here - because I totally understand PvP among players that are up for the task...it's fun, engaging, it's a rush...and it's competitive. I'm not talking about the person playing in open and willingly taking the interdiction and destruction. I'm also not talking about the notion of a cut-throat galaxy - we know the game is a dangerous place, and well it should be, but this still doesn't explain the point I raised. What I am talking about is the thought and emotional process going on in the aggressors mind. What specifically do they enjoy about attacking a target that clearly doesn't want to be attacked, and is unable or incapable of defending themselves? No one - as yet - has actually explained that beyond the "they do it for laughs" or "it's a power trip". Surely there's more to it than that, right?

There is a 3rd reason - revenge.

I know for a fact, that some people are making KOS lists from the forum users that disagree with them when it comes to various aspects of Elite, mainly PVP/PK/ganking/griefing - and them hunt them around.
 
I can't quite fathom why people define themselves in little pigeon holes.. eg, a solo player, a trader, an explorer. We can switch modes at any time, we can trade, explore and shoot at things at the drop of a hat. Why restrict ourselves to one thing?

I could define myself as a fruit and veg delivery driver and play like a mundane lemon. Thing is I can do that in the real world, and its not much fun. Games allow people to explore behaviour thats is not avaiable to them in the real world.

If given the choice in life would you accept your miserably little lot or take the option to become a player, a rich at with beautfiul women throwing themselves at you? There is a bit of escapism about games, after all why was it with SWTOR that almost everyone wanted to play as a Sith?

Isn't that akin to saying you don't understand why people are different from you?

I could go on a player killing rampage in the game - I choose not to, because I'm simply not like that - the idea simply doesn't interest me.

I could choose to do mining, but I've tried that (due to having to, to get rep with a certain engineer) and it got boring really fast.

I've been a bounty hunter in the game - that's how I first started out. Then I moved on to exploration. (And now I'm not playing much because frankly the game has stopped entertaining me.)

"Blaze your own trail" - mostly, people will settle into something which suits them the best - there will be the person who naturally settles on trading, or passenger space tours, or whatever. Because the game is wide open, most players will be in their own little world of <whatever>, playing the role they chose which was made available to them by the game.

I see official roles for Explorer, Trader, Bounty Hunter, and Pirate.

But I've never ever seen "Indiscriminate Player Killer Psychopathic Murderer" advertised or condoned by FDEV in any of their marketing - and this is where part of the problem lies. FDEV have fluffed the game design and mechanics so badly that people can have an in-game career of "Indiscriminate Player Killer Psychopathic Murderer" - that's a problem because most other players will have their own little bubble burst by what they perceive to be this utterly pointless behaviour.
 
Sorry, but on the ED Reddit we allow all members of the community to post and discuss their playstyles, with community up/down voting the importance of such content. SDC are only 50 members, out of our daily traffic of ~20k users.

As the mod-removal-reason-comment auto-posted states when a mod performs an action:

The link creates a modteam-wide message for communication.

If you want to link to the removed post, I will happily take a look at it.

thanks for the offer but it was corrected after I messaged the mod team

thanks for the offer though o7
 
There is a 3rd reason - revenge.

I know for a fact, that some people are making KOS lists from the forum users that disagree with them when it comes to various aspects of Elite, mainly PVP/PK/ganking/griefing - and them hunt them around.

... which is a dead game mechanic and a bad argument, because the one being hunted will play solo/group until things calm down. We had it already. We had clans claiming they play open only, but hey - when Credits go low -> Solo. This is also allowed by the game mechanics.

So basically: No one is able to shoot the "other one" back to his starting sidewinder. This is a dead end argument.
 
I look upon them as players, not traders or explorers. I'm certainly not the most hostile of players though. Nevertheless at times I choose to prune away the wastrels and pwn the worthless. Not me of course, its my commander alter ego [haha]

I'm an Elite combat pilot.. I shoot things and they go boom! If the game allowed for it, I would probably have become a bounty hunter and gone after the 'bad guys', but its not worth my time. Braben killed meaningful PvP because of his views over 'griefing'.

Ok - so I want to talk about this subject in a video. I want the video to be balanced - although I would never claim to be unbiased, because after all who is really and truly unbiased - but I can try my best to make it balanced). There are a ton of points of view, but the one I have trouble wrapping my head around is the player that travels all the way out to the alien ruins simply to shoot at an someone on the scene. What do they get out of this?

Do I simply cover this play-style as "the players alter-ego"? I'm reluctant to do that, because that line of reasoning can be used to justify anything...

If the answer is "I just like to shoot crap and make it explode - and it's more fun if it's a player". Then I can totally accept that. I don't have a problem with the reasons - so long as they are upfront and honest. :)
 
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That's an awesome story! Science Fiction is wonderful, because it always manages to highlight elements of the human condition.

I agree, PvP and more specifically player-killers have gained a bad rep. Some of it undeserved. Frontier haven't helped this at all...and actually encouraged it with many contradictions both in game-play and marketing.

I understand that player-killers would get upset at all of this nonsense pointed at them. It makes sense that they would feel this way.

Yes, there are players out there that are undoubtedly misunderstood. Personally I feel exploration is vastly misunderstood in the game, most especially by Frontier. Trading is also misunderstood, all it really is it hauling.

I agree PvPers are misunderstood, I also agree they are made out to be the bogeyman. You are quite right, that when no options are left, some people enjoy being misunderstood and play the part. But I don't think you really addressed the issue I raised: I'd love to hear explained specifically what certain players enjoy about interdicting a target that is unwilling and unable to defend themselves? I'm not talking about general PvP here - because I totally understand PvP among players that are up for the task...it's fun, engaging, it's a rush...and it's competitive. I'm not talking about the person playing in open and willingly taking the interdiction and destruction. I'm also not talking about the notion of a cut-throat galaxy - we know the game is a dangerous place, and well it should be, but this still doesn't explain the point I raised. What I am talking about is the thought and emotional process going on in the aggressors mind. What specifically do they enjoy about attacking a target that clearly doesn't want to be attacked, and is unable or incapable of defending themselves? No one - as yet - has actually explained that beyond the "they do it for laughs" or "it's a power trip". Surely there's more to it than that, right?

According to the SDC discord chat, many would like to chat but are banned from the forums. They'll happily chat about it on Reddit if you want to create a post for research?
 
What I am talking about is the thought and emotional process going on in the aggressors mind. What specifically do they enjoy about attacking a target that clearly doesn't want to be attacked, and is unable or incapable of defending themselves? No one - as yet - has actually explained that beyond the "they do it for laughs" or "it's a power trip". Surely there's more to it than that, right?

The only valid excuses I've heard for that behavior has been;-
  1. We want to slow or stop a CG.
  2. We want to flip a system to a certain power we like.

In those cases, its understandable. But ganking around say the xenohendge site or the Barnicles are just for the lolz. If I remember rightly (and please correct me if I'm wrong) after the code members were found out killing for the Lolz around Barnacles, the code made an retrospective announcement that they were doing it to protect the Barnacle sites from Looters.
 
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I don't disagree with what you are saying here at all. Losing a ship, is just a part of the game - and everyone needs to accept that fact. That said, I can understand why people get upset about losing a ship.

After reading through this thread I see a lot of people rightfully upset about combat logging (it undoubtedly needs fixing). However, what I don't see are pirates, player-killers and PvPers explaining what they enjoy about combat with an unwilling and likely unskilled target. I've seen a lot of people explain why they quit out - and I've seen a lot of people explain why combat logging should be prevented. There's all manner of statements and conversations and adjective ridden accusations about the nature of "gankers", "murderers" as well as "cowards", and "carebears".

I've seen the non-PvP people explain why they get upset - and then clearly defining what they do enjoy about the game.

What I haven't seen is the PvP people explaining what they enjoy about an unwilling target being forced into combat? There's been a lot said about "wasting time", and accusations against "sore losers" - I can understand and relate to that, but that doesn't explain the "why". I can also totally relate to the enjoyment and excitement of a player vs player fight. But the thing here, is that the combat-loggers clearly do not want to fight, so if they actually stayed in the game (instead of quitting out), and then awaited the interdiction and engaged in the combat - chances are they would be rubbish and a very weak target. I'm really keen to hear what the "aggressor" enjoys about this particular scenario?

Bullies always have enjoyed, and always will enjoy, bullying. It's the same mentality that gets pleasure out of killing small animals, or ganging up on the geeky nerd. And the same disappointment when the target of their unpleasantness manages somehow to escape their clutches before the final stroke.
 
No one - as yet - has actually explained that beyond the "they do it for laughs" or "it's a power trip". Surely there's more to it than that, right?

I'd say not.
Person buys game. Plays game. Gets bored of game. Person finds fun in the game they've bought by killing people that don't want to be killed or pulling wings off bugs (ganking newbies).

I don't think there's anything more to it than that really. They're playing the game the way they want to within the rules of the game, if FD want a their game to be played a certain way then it it's up to them to develop it thusly. If some people take exception to that then there's options in solo and PGs.

Sure if you dig down there might be some other psychological reason why they do the things they do but you could also say the same of the people that are up in arms about people shooting other people in a game that allows shooting other people because that's not the way they want the game to be played even though they've got perfectly valid options in Solo and PGs (e.g. If they feel the need to control the actions of other people that aren't against the rules of the game then they've probably got some problems too).
 
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