An investigation into Frontier's actions on Combat Logging

[Obsidian Ant]

According to the SDC discord chat, many would like to chat but are banned from the forums. They'll happily chat about it on Reddit if you want to create a post for research?

Sure. Let's give that a go.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I can't quite fathom why people define themselves in little pigeon holes..

see i can take that logic an run with it.....

I identify ships in the game as pilots, they are wanted or they are clean........ whether they are player or AI should be irrelevant. the fact that a player may see me and go "look hollow box "pew pew pew pew pew" with no clue if i have a bounty or cargo or doing power play because they have not even taken time to scan me is a smaller pigeon hole that i ever put myself in.

IF we could get kicked out of the Federation of Pilots, then i could imagine a RP scenario where disgruntled pilots with no insurance etc who are wanted by the factions and unwelcome at legal stations would hunt out PF pilots out of spite... but given we ARE all PF pilots - the PvP players included, then singling me out as a hollow box to blow up IS pigeon holing.

 

[Cosmos]

That's an awesome story! Science Fiction is wonderful, because it always manages to highlight elements of the human condition.

I agree, PvP and more specifically player-killers have gained a bad rep. Some of it undeserved. Frontier haven't helped this at all...and actually encouraged it with many contradictions both in game-play and marketing.

I understand that player-killers would get upset at all of this nonsense pointed at them. It makes sense that they would feel this way.

Yes, there are players out there that are undoubtedly misunderstood. Personally I feel exploration is vastly misunderstood in the game, most especially by Frontier. Trading is also misunderstood, all it really is it hauling.

I agree PvPers are misunderstood, I also agree they are made out to be the bogeyman. You are quite right, that when no options are left, some people enjoy being misunderstood and play the part. But I don't think you really addressed the issue I raised: I'd love to hear explained specifically what certain players enjoy about interdicting a target that is unwilling and unable to defend themselves? I'm not talking about general PvP here - because I totally understand PvP among players that are up for the task...it's fun, engaging, it's a rush...and it's competitive. I'm not talking about the person playing in open and willingly taking the interdiction and destruction. I'm also not talking about the notion of a cut-throat galaxy - we know the game is a dangerous place, and well it should be, but this still doesn't explain the point I raised. What I am talking about is the thought and emotional process going on in the aggressors mind. What specifically do they enjoy about attacking a target that clearly doesn't want to be attacked, and is unable or incapable of defending themselves? No one - as yet - has actually explained that beyond the "they do it for laughs" or "it's a power trip". Surely there's more to it than that, right?

Yeah, make sure you read the follow on stories linked in the rest of that reddit thread.. Most amusing.

I actually quite like exploring, I wish it was better and more involved. Trading isn't something that floats my boat because its not trading, its spacetrucking. If we had a dynamic palyer driven economy then it would be way more interesting.

As for killing these defenceless types I can't say I find it rewarding much at all. I've done it a little bit in the past and on occasion out of mischief I will pwn a few players. Still, I feel a bit bad for doing it and I am not prolific in that area. I asked support to tell me how many players I had nailed the other day and the number was 444. I don't pwn noobs in Eravate for example and I much prefer a good battle where I fight a player who is able to fight back. Despite all of this I have had my fair share of abuse over the years.. Its why at times I side with the most egregious, I know many of the most hated and I quite like them. I spent a bit of time with SDC for example, had a lot of fun and laughs, I left and now we are at odds.. But for me them being my 'enemy' only makes the game more interesting and challenging.

I will say this though, I have considered several times in creating some guides on 'how to get gud', but given the general hostility why should I help others to get better? Being a decent pilot for ED is in everyones reach, I could give all my skills and tricks but I don't feel inclined to do so with the present vibe.

 

[Dwarden]

1. it's unrealistic to expect that FD investigate manual reports and employ manual punishment (volume, manpower, time, cost)
2. it's hard to expect FD will deploy 'ghost' client running alongside any player+player instance island
3. it's less likely to expect FD will deploy 'ghost' client running alongside any player+player instance with crime/fight happening
(technically challenging to avoid delays/sync issues affecting negatively gameplay but it may work, but it will be something with not small cost)

so there might be one additional step before the 3.
it's simple

let's turn combat logging into similar crime offense like piracy ...
of course scaled (the more often it happens in combat the bigger the bounty and longer the expiration) ...
why ? well because the NPC factions hate combat loggers too

it's fair as the system applies to everyone

combine with some ideas like here : https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDange..._balancing_act_frontier_taking_notes/d7u8g4x/

and it may work for better ...

then security then improve player to/with/versus gameplay

 

[CMDR Tom D]

Greifer scum, question for you.

Whats the difference between a player in Solo constantly that you never engage with, and someone you engage with briefly only for them to Log and go back to solo? Surely by your logic these are both "cheating" you out of a kill.

Genuine question.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

But ganking around say the xenohendge site or the Barnicles are just because they can.

I've heard this before, and it doesn't explain much.

For instance, there's nothing stopping me from doing just that, but that would bore the socks of me, and I'm an explorer so that is saying something. I need a motivator to do this. The motivators I can think of don't speak well of the ones doing it, and are almost all a result of layman psycho babble.

So instead of guessing, I too would like know what motivates.

 

[halo jones 101]

There is a 3rd reason - revenge.

I know for a fact, that some people are making KOS lists from the forum users that disagree with them when it comes to various aspects of Elite, mainly PVP/PK/ganking/griefing - and them hunt them around.

This is no doubt true, but it is rightly or wrongly a part consequence of the "Forum Meta Game", that all online games have to one degree or another.

I would however also point out, that this as with the particular subject of this thread. Believe I can safely say only reflects a small part of the wider player base, who just play the game as is, and either dont bother with the forums or ignore 90% of it.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

I'd say not.
Person buys game. Plays game. Gets bored of game. Person finds fun in the game they've bought by killing people that don't want to be killed or pulling wings off bugs (ganking newbies).

I don't think there's anything more to it than that really. They're playing the game the way they want to within the rules of the game, if FD want a their game to be played a certain way then it it's up to them to develop it thusly. If some people take exception to that then there's options in solo and PGs.

Sure if you dig down there might be some other psychological reason why they do the things they do but you could also say the same of the people that are up in arms about people shooting other people in a game that allows shooting other people because that's not the way they want the game to be played (e.g. If they feel the need to control the actions that aren't against the rules of the game of other people in a video game then they've probably got some problems too).

This reply is the one that makes the most sense so far. I certainly have no interest in getting into the deep psychology of it all. A trade might enjoy trading because they like the long hauls, or the slow accumulation of money...for each individual there's probably an entire thought process to that. But really it's the surface layer of that thought process that is the most interesting and the most useful because it offers opportunity to create gameplay.

Players like to shoot other players is a reasonable line. But it's not more reasonable than people getting annoyed at being shot at for no reason.

Yes, the ball is in Frontier's court. It's been there since 2012, and Frontier haven't done fair by anyone on any of the side on this issue. Including those that just like to shoot stuff for fun.

 

[Javert]

Ok - so I want to talk about this subject in a video. I want the video to be balanced - although I would never claim to be unbiased, because after all who is really and truly unbiased - but I can try my best to make it balanced). There are a ton of points of view, but the one I have trouble wrapping my head around is the player that travels all the way out to the alien ruins simply to shoot at an someone on the scene. What do they get out of this?

Do I simply cover this play-style as "the players alter-ego"? I'm reluctant to do that, because that line of reasoning can be used to justify anything...

If the answer is "I just like to shoot crap and make it explode - and it's more fun if it's a player". Then I can totally accept that. I don't have a problem with the reasons - so long as they are upfront and honest.

I presume that it's because it's guaranteed to be a target rich environment - anywhere where there are likely to be a lot of other players around, especially if they are unarmed and in explorer ships. Alien Ruins, CG site, enginner site - doesn't matter - it's where they are most likely to find other players.

 

[Stigbob]

I'd say not.
Person buys game. Plays game. Gets bored of game. Person finds fun in the game they've bought by killing people that don't want to be killed or pulling wings off bugs (ganking newbies).

I don't think there's anything more to it than that really. They're playing the game the way they want to within the rules of the game, if FD want a their game to be played a certain way then it it's up to them to develop it thusly. If some people take exception to that then there's options in solo and PGs.

Sure if you dig down there might be some other psychological reason why they do the things they do but you could also say the same of the people that are up in arms about people shooting other people in a game that allows shooting other people because that's not the way they want the game to be played (e.g. If they feel the need to control the actions that aren't against the rules of the game of other people in a video game then they've probably got some problems too).

Yep that's all it is. The perfect result from a ganking from the gankers perspective is an easy kill then a comms meltdown followed by a forum and reddit meltdown and threadnaught.

It's why they hate Mobius, it deprives them of the opportunity to gank and with that the platform to crow about it afterwards.

 

[DaylightM]

According to the SDC discord chat, many would like to chat but are banned from the forums. They'll happily chat about it on Reddit if you want to create a post for research?

you mean listen to what they have to say!! as you wouldnt be able to a word in edgeways or have your comments deleted by a partisan moderator on reddit

I want to see FDEV take action against combat loggers and enforcing other areas of the TOS and EULA but as they say prevention is better than the cure and combat logging is only a consequence of slightly unsavoury actions by the others

 

[amigacooke]

New profession for ED, investigative journalist.

 

[KING5TON]

So we have all now come to the shocking conclusion that this whole 'story' was blown up simply for a minority to push their agenda in the interest of their own play style?

Frontier have admitted they are at fault and not following proper process.
I don't think there's any way to wriggle out of this one I'm afraid.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I will say this though, I have considered several times in creating some guides on 'how to get gud', but given the general hostility why should I help others to get better? Being a decent pilot for ED is in everyones reach, I could give all my skills and tricks but I don't feel inclined to do so with the present vibe.

I am sure there are some who woudl appreciate it... BUT you seem to be failing to accept that some just want to PwP and have no interest in PvP, and their skills or not have nowt to do with it.

i am carp at BF4.. but i happily play it.... turns out i am ok at combat in most aerial combat games - OK, not amazing - but in CQC - the only mode i have any will to engage in PvP, i kill more than i die ....... would i learn something from you if i saw your secrets? quite possibly.

would i then want to engage in PvP in Elite or embrace the pvp build meta? No chance!.
Another problem is in ED the PvE build vs the PvP build is so far removed from each other, its like expecting a priest to relax in a lapdancing bar**

**actually..... they may like that, what do i know?

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

I'd say not.
Person buys game. Plays game. Gets bored of game. Person finds fun in the game they've bought by killing people that don't want to be killed or pulling wings off bugs (ganking newbies).

I don't think there's anything more to it than that really. They're playing the game the way they want to within the rules of the game, if FD want a their game to be played a certain way then it it's up to them to develop it thusly. If some people take exception to that then there's options in solo and PGs.

Or just not playing the game at all if it's perceived that the game as it currently stands is too broken.

Sure if you dig down there might be some other psychological reason why they do the things they do but you could also say the same of the people that are up in arms about people shooting other people in a game that allows shooting other people because that's not the way they want the game to be played (e.g. If they feel the need to control the actions that aren't against the rules of the game of other people in a video game then they've probably got some problems too).

I'm not against PvP, as long as it's within the context of the content that FDEV have provided.

This is what has always been meant by "PvP should be rare and meaningful".

I've seen justifications for player killing such as "cutthroat galaxy".

"Cutthroat galaxy" clearly meant within the context of the in-game politics, storyline, content of the game.

It never did mean "this is a free-for-all player kills player gankfest". Using "cutthroat galaxy" as an excuse for daily player killing, is willfully misunderstanding the marketing.

But again, I fully give FDEV the credit for fluffing the marketing, and fluffing the game mechanics, to such an extent, that we're all now here talking in such a forum thread.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

Ok - so I want to talk about this subject in a video. I want the video to be balanced - although I would never claim to be unbiased, because after all who is really and truly unbiased - but I can try my best to make it balanced). There are a ton of points of view, but the one I have trouble wrapping my head around is the player that travels all the way out to the alien ruins simply to shoot at an someone on the scene. What do they get out of this?

Do I simply cover this play-style as "the players alter-ego"? I'm reluctant to do that, because that line of reasoning can be used to justify anything...

If the answer is "I just like to shoot crap and make it explode - and it's more fun if it's a player". Then I can totally accept that. I don't have a problem with the reasons - so long as they are upfront and honest.

Yeah, make sure you read the follow on stories linked in the rest of that reddit thread.. Most amusing.

I actually quite like exploring, I wish it was better and more involved. Trading isn't something that floats my boat because its not trading, its spacetrucking. If we had a dynamic palyer driven economy then it would be way more interesting.

As for killing these defenceless types I can't say I find it rewarding much at all. I've done it a little bit in the past and on occasion out of mischief I will pwn a few players. Still, I feel a bit bad for doing it and I am not prolific in that area. I asked support to tell me how many players I had nailed the other day and the number was 444. I don't pwn noobs in Eravate for example and I much prefer a good battle where I fight a player who is able to fight back. Despite all of this I have had my fair share of abuse over the years.. Its why at times I side with the most egregious, I know many of the most hated and I quite like them. I spent a bit of time with SDC for example, had a lot of fun and laughs, I left and now we are at odds.. But for me them being my 'enemy' only makes the game more interesting and challenging.

I will say this though, I have considered several times in creating some guides on 'how to get gud', but given the general hostility why should I help others to get better? Being a decent pilot for ED is in everyones reach, I could give all my skills and tricks but I don't feel inclined to do so with the present vibe.

Great reply Cosmos, thanks. I made the above post before you had a chance to answer my first one.

What you explain there I think is completely fair and within the scope of the game - and I can see why there might be enjoyment to be found there for people that like that.

 

[xondk]

I don't think this is the intention that fd had, but it is the result. Until C&P can be worked out I think the Block option should block players from being instanced together. I do wonder if this would result in SDC members being wholly isolated after a while. Either way, I'm pretty sure it wold calm a lot of issues down fast. It is also a very simple fix and would likely take longer for them to pass it through their channels and agree upon than it would take to implement.

I agree, the problem however is not the game, if we keep adapting the game to avoid issues with those that want to cause issues, the game will slowly but surely grind to a halt as MANY other games have before.

If we instead find a way to make griefing undesirable to do, because of consequences, we will get a better game overall. Frankly if it was my game, if someone was suspected of griefing, I'd monitor their behaviour, and when enough evidence has been gathered, permanently ban them, in elite they could simply just ban them from open, so people wouldn't be able to go "you took away my game I paid for" where Frontier could clearly say "We took away your right to play with others because you only want to annoy others." and that would be that.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Sure. Let's give that a go.

Tag your thread as serious, mind.

 

[KING5TON]

This reply is the one that makes the most sense so far. I certainly have no interest in getting into the deep psychology of it all. A trade might enjoy trading because they like the long hauls, or the slow accumulation of money...for each individual there's probably an entire thought process to that. But really it's the surface layer of that thought process that is the most interesting and the most useful because it offers opportunity to create gameplay.

Players like to shoot other players is a reasonable line. But it's not more reasonable than people getting annoyed at being shot at for no reason.

Yes, the ball is in Frontier's court. It's been there since 2012, and Frontier haven't done fair by anyone on any of the side on this issue. Including those that just like to shoot stuff for fun.

I'm not saying people that get shot when they don't want to be shot are anyway in the wrong for feeling annoyed.
Anytime I die in any multiplayer game I'm normally a bit annoyed.
There's a difference between that though and coming on a game's forums and demanding that people are not allowed to shoot me anymore. Which is in effect what a lot of people are saying.

 

[DaylightM]

Frontier have admitted they are at fault and not following proper process.
I don't think there's any way to wriggle out of this one I'm afraid.

wriggle out of what??? did they steal from someone ?? did they kill anyone or break any law?? no then there is nothing to "wriggle" out of ... if a few disgruntled customers think they are being lied to then this is capitalism and they are free to take their business elsewhere