An investigation into Frontier's actions on Combat Logging

114 pages in and the only two things that really leap out of this thread are these:

1. Frontier have not persuaded players concerned about combat logging that they are doing enough about it.

2. Frontier have not persuaded players concerned about crime and punishment that they are doing enough about it.
 
No one - as yet - has actually explained that beyond the "they do it for laughs" or "it's a power trip". Surely there's more to it than that, right?

Most PvPers started as PvE players. I did. I've done every PvE activity this game has to offer to a level and extent which would make the King of All Carebears proud.

Thing is, unless you have some kind of idiot savant tendencies, PvE holds no lasting challenge and becomes boring over time. It's just too easy.

PvP remains the only true challenge in the game for me. Going up against unfavourable odds and either prevailing or at the very least living to tell the tale is where the fun is for me. That having been said I'm not above ganging up on and destroying low threat CMDRs in badly configured trade ships.

Why?

Because the Elite Community contains more entitled fully grown crybabies than any other gaming community I've come across in over 20 years of gaming. Blowing up these whinging, whining, selfish players is immensely satisfying. But how do I know my target is one of these overgrown manbabies? Kindly this very forum provided me with the empirical evidence I needed to justify my endless murder spree. 70% of these awful wailing adult infants voted against instant ship transfer. A staggeringly selfish action which deprived the community as a whole of a massive QoL improvement, for which they can never be forgiven. It was an epiphany for me. These are the very same people who are now crying about their precious gimballed weapons being nerfed, and who complain that turrets should be an "I Win" button because they cost more than fixed weapons. They also howled about the AI buffs which came along with Engineers, and had the AI reduced to the rather unchallenging level it is now.

So, I can merrily go about my business destroying every CMDR I possibly can, because in 7 out of 10 cases, supported by solid empirical evidence from this forum, they had it coming.

I hope this helps :)
 
... I'd love to hear explained specifically what certain players enjoy about interdicting a target that is unwilling and unable to defend themselves? I'm not talking about general PvP here - because I totally understand PvP among players that are up for the task...it's fun, engaging, it's a rush...and it's competitive. I'm not talking about the person playing in open and willingly taking the interdiction and destruction. I'm also not talking about the notion of a cut-throat galaxy - we know the game is a dangerous place, and well it should be, but this still doesn't explain the point I raised. What I am talking about is the thought and emotional process going on in the aggressors mind. What specifically do they enjoy about attacking a target that clearly doesn't want to be attacked, and is unable or incapable of defending themselves? No one - as yet - has actually explained that beyond the "they do it for laughs" or "it's a power trip". Surely there's more to it than that, right?

  • Because target affects BGS (and this also for powerplay)
  • Because target haul cargo seen as "forbidden" by attacker
  • Because attacker had bad day and hate whole world
  • Because target belongs, was identified, as some group member which is considered by attacker as hostile
  • Because target brings (may bring) exploration data which can inflict huge hit to BGS mechanic
  • Because trading due CG break someone work on local BGS and damaging CG participants can cut loses little
  • Because blockade
  • ... and remains usual "lolz" reasons and I believe also more other.
Problem is, that attacker know, that he have (if things go bad) maximum 15 seconds (less if CL ofc) for destroy his target. This quite limits attacker chances to communicate and also target willingness listen to attacker demands.
 
Most PvPers started as PvE players. I did. I've done every PvE activity this game has to offer to a level and extent which would make the King of All Carebears proud.

Thing is, unless you have some kind of idiot savant tendencies, PvE holds no lasting challenge and becomes boring over time. It's just too easy.

PvP remains the only true challenge in the game for me. Going up against unfavourable odds and either prevailing or at the very least living to tell the tale is where the fun is for me. That having been said I'm not above ganging up on and destroying low threat CMDRs in badly configured trade ships.

Why?

Because the Elite Community contains more entitled fully grown crybabies than any other gaming community I've come across in over 20 years of gaming. Blowing up these whinging, whining, selfish players is immensely satisfying. But how do I know my target is one of these overgrown manbabies? Kindly this very forum provided me with the empirical evidence I needed to justify my endless murder spree. 70% of these awful wailing adult infants voted against instant ship transfer. A staggeringly selfish action which deprived the community as a whole of a massive QoL improvement, for which they can never be forgiven. It was an epiphany for me. These are the very same people who are now crying about their precious gimballed weapons being nerfed, and who complain that turrets should be an "I Win" button because they cost more than fixed weapons. They also howled about the AI buffs which came along with Engineers, and had the AI reduced to the rather unchallenging level it is now.

So, I can merrily go about my business destroying every CMDR I possibly can, because in 7 out of 10 cases, supported by solid empirical evidence from this forum, they had it coming.

I hope this helps :)

Yeah sure, there could not possibly be any crossover on any of those issues could there? Funny, because I found allies and adversaries during many of those debates in the most unexpected places, I'm not surprised you try it on though, any excuse eh?

Oh, and for the record, yours is the only whining, infantile and crybaby post in the last few pages, kudos.
 
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Javert

Volunteer Moderator
It's why I was never really critical of the behavior and playstyle. I never really spoke out against SDC behavior, or held anything against them prior to this post.

Frankly I am in a similar opinion. I don't particularly have a huge issue with SDC's in game actions, although invading the Mobius group was going too far. Reality is - what I've found is folk like that get bored easily - if they invade a site like the Alien Ruins or whatever, I just go in solo and/or wait a few hours and they will be gone. (Clue - for some strange reason I'm not too keen on interacting with them in the game which surely must be a bad thing for them also).

What I mainly have an issue with is them bringing this type of anarchic games outside of the actual game itself, and as I said yesterday, calling FD to be liars when actually their evidence did not back up such a serious claim.

Once again we repeat - why couldn't they present their evidence to FD privately first and then only go public, after a suitable time interval, if the response was inadequate? Answer, in my view, is that they are simply attention seeking. They may have some long term goal other than simply making trouble, but posts like "we never do anything without a long term plan" and "the game will be dead within a year" are hardly reassuring as to their benign intentions.

Some of the things SDC have done are arguably good for the game, but a few of the things they have done are damaging to the game. Regardless whether FD handled the tickets wrong, what they have done is likely to discourage and scare off new customers who were thinking of buying the game, and move more people into solo / PG which is presumably the opposite of what they would like. New customers are much more likely to be worried about getting griefed than about whether someone will combat log on them.

It is also likely to discourage FD devs and support from engaging openly with the community.

We also have to remind ourselves that there have been many prior discussions on these forums and others about combat logging, crime, and all the other things - this is not something new or some great new exploit that was discovered yesterday.

SDC keep telling us that they don't care about how much credits they can earn, faction rep, BGS or any such things. Therefore to them, a CL can just be classed as a victory - if someone logged off, you won the fight, just like if the hi wake you also effectively won the fight as they ran away.

Frankly, I'm surprised FD didn't also come out and say that their process doesn't necessarily involve review of video evidence, and they would only go back and review the video after multiple reports against the same user by several different other users. To me it didn't seem unusual at all that the videos were not reviewed, unless there were a significant number of reports against that one account coming from multiple accusers.
 
PvP remains the only true challenge in the game for me. Going up against unfavourable odds and either prevailing or at the very least living to tell the tale is where the fun is for me. That having been said I'm not above ganging up on and destroying low threat CMDRs in badly configured trade ships.


How much of your time do you spend, say, playing true PvP in CQC where you really do meet challengers at the top of their game? If you literally do spend the majority of your time there then surely the antics in OPEN are pretty much irrelevant.

If you just club seals in open, that's not true PvP, and it's antics like this that generate the frame of mind to combat log in the first case.

Only CQC offers the true PvP mechanic 'honorable' PvPers need. Heck, PvP literally has its own mode. Surely PvE should get theirs :)

-coffee time!-

fa4b41863477b7894b777053ab89c32a.jpg
 
Because the Elite Community contains more entitled fully grown crybabies than any other gaming community I've come across in over 20 years of gaming. Blowing up these whinging, whining, selfish players is immensely satisfying. But how do I know my target is one of these overgrown manbabies?

sigh This is just turning (turned) into a massive name calling contest.

Mate you said you wanted a civilised debate earlier without the name calling. what happened?
 
"We do not permit our forums to be used for personal attacks, and/or harassment of others" is one of the forum rules.

Repeated public belittlement of sections of the community due to their chosen playstyle (PVPers, PKers) is precisely what I see occur here by some members of the modteam & community - i.e. SDC are to blame for all Combat Logging - which I find disappointing. I'll call it out when necessary, which isn't against the forum rules.
Having opinions on them is not belittling them.

You know this perfectly well as a grown adult - quit the media manipulation under the guise of old wisdom act it's not washing. This is just more PK/SDC/PvP propaganda alt-right nonsense. There's four more pages but I need to say this. I'm bored of this manipulative rubbish trying to shame people in public to force their behaviour
 
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That having been said I'm not above ganging up on and destroying low threat CMDRs in badly configured trade ships.

Why?

Because the Elite Community contains more entitled fully grown crybabies than any other gaming community I've come across in over 20 years of gaming. Blowing up these whinging, whining, selfish players is immensely satisfying.

Interesting.

What kind of whinging and whining are you talking about, specifically?

Also, define what you mean by 'selfish'.


But how do I know my target is one of these overgrown manbabies? Kindly this very forum provided me with the empirical evidence I needed to justify my endless murder spree. 70% of these awful wailing adult infants voted against instant ship transfer. A staggeringly selfish action which deprived the community as a whole of a massive QoL improvement, for which they can never be forgiven.

So what you're saying is, you were in a minority opinion which lost a vote, and now you feel somehow justified in just killing everything with a heartbeat?

Can you not see where some confusion is being created there? Maybe not even a slight degree of cognitive dissonance? A hint of abnormal behaviour, perhaps? A taste of the very childish, manbaby-like thoughts and actions you appear to be railing against?



It was an epiphany for me. These are the very same people who are now crying about their precious gimballed weapons being nerfed, and who complain that turrets should be an "I Win" button because they cost more than fixed weapons.

[CITATION NEEDED]


They also howled about the AI buffs which came along with Engineers,

Do you mean the extremely bugged version of the AI with various combinations of bugged engineered weapons like machine-gun plasma accelerators, which FDEV devs acknowledged at the time?

and had the AI reduced to the rather unchallenging level it is now.

Do you mean when FDEV themselves admitted that the NPC's weapons were bugged, or was there a bit after those bugged combinations were removed and FDEV twiddled the NPC danger levels down a bit more even after that? I distinctly remember that even I was disappointed that FDEV had reduced NPC danger after that latter part as well. I don't remember wanting to murder everyone because of it though.

So, I can merrily go about my business destroying every CMDR I possibly can, because in 7 out of 10 cases, supported by solid empirical evidence from this forum, they had it coming.

This smells of childish excuses to me. The very same childishness of which you accuse everyone who doesn't agree with you of.

o9o9o9o9o9o9o9
 
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Completely agree.

The last point about Planet Coaster I find interesting too, and led me to grab these - the credits for both games:

Elite Dangerous:
http://i.imgur.com/XwoaI40.png

Planet Coaster:
http://i.imgur.com/nSmVi4x.jpg

While there is some sharing of devs (audio, networking) the predominant overlap is of "backend" staff like admin, support, servers, QA, etc.

However, what is very obvious for both games is that the actual programming teams are relatively small, and they code the gameplay mechanics. Hopefully the revenue brought from PC's release will allow the hiring of more coding devs to suppliment the existing superb team.

Well people whom are on the credits could have left and new people joined, can't tell that much from the credits other than it wasn't the same person. The role however could have moved.

If it isn't the case and planet coaster was an entirely different team then it makes the ED team look worse IMO due to releasing not much and what they have is IMO underdeveloped. I'd make a joke that they're too busy playing the game to develop the game but if that was the case I'd expect the game to have gotten a lot better.

Whenever people make an excuse about FD's team size all that needs to be done it point at CD Project Red and the expansion blood and wine they release for the witcher 3 within two years of the game's release. They are a small team just like FD, they've had similar time and look what they produced compared to what FD produced.
 
Most PvPers started as PvE players. I did. I've done every PvE activity this game has to offer to a level and extent which would make the King of All Carebears proud.

Thing is, unless you have some kind of idiot savant tendencies, PvE holds no lasting challenge and becomes boring over time. It's just too easy.

PvP remains the only true challenge in the game for me. Going up against unfavourable odds and either prevailing or at the very least living to tell the tale is where the fun is for me. That having been said I'm not above ganging up on and destroying low threat CMDRs in badly configured trade ships.

Why?

Because the Elite Community contains more entitled fully grown crybabies than any other gaming community I've come across in over 20 years of gaming. Blowing up these whinging, whining, selfish players is immensely satisfying. But how do I know my target is one of these overgrown manbabies? Kindly this very forum provided me with the empirical evidence I needed to justify my endless murder spree. 70% of these awful wailing adult infants voted against instant ship transfer. A staggeringly selfish action which deprived the community as a whole of a massive QoL improvement, for which they can never be forgiven. It was an epiphany for me. These are the very same people who are now crying about their precious gimballed weapons being nerfed, and who complain that turrets should be an "I Win" button because they cost more than fixed weapons. They also howled about the AI buffs which came along with Engineers, and had the AI reduced to the rather unchallenging level it is now.

So, I can merrily go about my business destroying every CMDR I possibly can, because in 7 out of 10 cases, supported by solid empirical evidence from this forum, they had it coming.

I hope this helps :)

Hmm. I voted against instant ship transfer, but support the change to gimballed weapons, AI buffs and am not overly fond of cheap turrets. Can I be forgiven or did I just make myself a target because I dare to defy oversimplified categorizations?
 
Genar-Hofoen

I agree with you on almost every point but I'm pretty sure you're wasting you time.

We've established anyone who agrees with the OP is a massive hypocrite.
 
114 pages in and the only two things that really leap out of this thread are these:

1. Frontier have not persuaded players concerned about combat logging that they are doing enough about it.

2. Frontier have not persuaded players concerned about crime and punishment that they are doing enough about it.


Which is a recurring theme for the game in general, unfortunately. :(
 
Frankly, I'm surprised FD didn't also come out and say that their process doesn't necessarily involve review of video evidence, and they would only go back and review the video after multiple reports against the same user by several different other users. To me it didn't seem unusual at all that the videos were not reviewed, unless there were a significant number of reports against that one account coming from multiple accusers.

This actually surprised me too. They stated they have their internal investigations methods into combat logging, server logs etc.
Videos can be manipulated or can represent a very biased/skewed viewpoint.
I'm surprised FDev didn't simply say they normally rely on their internal investigations and don't take part in witch hunting on the internet.
 
  • Because target affects BGS (and this also for powerplay)
  • Because target haul cargo seen as "forbidden" by attacker
  • Because attacker had bad day and hate whole world
  • Because target belongs, was identified, as some group member which is considered by attacker as hostile
  • Because target brings (may bring) exploration data which can inflict huge hit to BGS mechanic
  • Because trading due CG break someone work on local BGS and damaging CG participants can cut loses little
  • Because blockade
  • ... and remains usual "lolz" reasons and I believe also more other.
Problem is, that attacker know, that he have (if things go bad) maximum 15 seconds (less if CL ofc) for destroy his target. This quite limits attacker chances to communicate and also target willingness listen to attacker demands.

Solid list really, problem is though.
1: As we've seen repeatedly, many of the groups so very focused on attacking others, do not want to do anything with the background simulation, CODE lost its system rather quickly and suddenly that didn't matter? So in terms of Background sim, that doesn't seem to matter, add that killing someone does NOT do anything, working against them, using the background sim, does. PvPing alone is as previous example prove, not going to do anything, not even if everyone was in open, so yeah no, the whole but they do it in private/solo doesn't work either, that few players simply cannot handle pvping every, single, person that passes through the system, especially since they rarely know what said person is doing there, how would they know?

2: is fairly valid, but i've really not heard this one or seen this been brought up much so..yeah..

3: this is seemingly one of the major reasons for that group of player, combined with the 'lolz' reason.

4: Except, public KoS list have been made for people...that got away from them, in practice I agree, but it seems to have just turned into 'lolz' reason.

5: how would they know?

6: Seems insanely unlikely, considering CG positions are all over the place, that there always is a large group of people that are affected in that system, so they grief?

7: but why blockade when it is horrifyingly ineffective, heck in dedicated PvP games and such, blockading and similar has proven near impractical, only reason it worked in Eve is because of gate camping with the way gate's work, in Elite they can camp the sun sure, but again, they can't possibly catch everyone, and some people are only passing through e.t.c. also in a blockade you'd blockade everyone, not just the weak targets, but also the big targets, yet i've not heard of this happening...ever. And having been a big target myself at several CG's only a single time was I attempted to interdicted by a wing, which was rather silly and uncoordinated, but maybe could have worked if not, but my point is 1 time out of...countless 'blockaded' systems/cg's and whatnot by PvP'ers in full open play.

My point is griefers/pvp'ers or whatever you want to call these specific groups that have caused people to now combat log reflexively, are by an enormous margin overestimating what actually can do, and are blatantly refusing to participate in the system there to allow them to DO stuff, BGS e.t.c.

All this is based on the behaviour seen in game, and on forum by various groups over now 2 years of playing Elite, none of them have changed their behaviour or actually try to do anything they claim to do, or fight for a 'goal' or such they have claimed to have. Heck there's even been 'charity' plays for their play style which have universally been all out griefing, unless of course it simply was so advanced that I didn't understand how what I watched worked...but I have my doubts there, no matter how much I wished it.
 
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As I see it both "Loggers" and "Griefers" use game exploits to avoid Crime and Punishment.
Thus Fdev would have to come up with fixes for both problems.
 
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How much of your time do you spend, say, playing true PvP in CQC where you really do meet challengers at the top of their game? If you literally do spend the majority of your time there then surely the antics in OPEN are pretty much irrelevant.

If you just club seals in open, that's not true PvP, and it's antics like this that generate the frame of mind to combat log in the first case.

Only CQC offers the true PvP mechanic 'honorable' PvPers need.

PvP duelling against the odds is almost my whole game. Usually Courier v max-spec FdL.

If CQC ever got ED's ships, guns and flight model I'd probably never leave it.

Until then it's like asking a kid with a 2016 version of Pokemon why he doesn't like Dad's Gameboy version.
 
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Having opinions on them is not belittling them.

You know this perfectly well as a grown adult - quit the media manipulation under the guise of old wisdom act it's not washing. This is just more PK/SDC/PvP propaganda alt-right nonsense. There's four more pages but I need to say this. I'm bored of this manipulative rubbish trying to shame people in public to force their behaviour
I assume you understand that I'm neither a Player Killer, nor an SDC member, nor a PvPer. Despite playing in Open ~95% of the time, I've only ever battled against other CMDRs (as a result of interdiction or meeting in a CZ/RES/NAV) less than a dozen times, and lost most of them :(

While you may disagree with my comments as they differ from your preferred narrative, it doesn't make them propaganda. I personally see Elite Dangerous (Open) for what it is: an evolving, connected, cutthroat galaxy.

Back on topic: cheating is cheating, and Combat Loggers (cheaters) should be suitably punished as a deterrent.
 
Mate you said you wanted a civilised debate earlier without the name calling. what happened?
He didn't want one - his first post on the thread was basically the same as the one you quoted.

as we've already seen this year, on multiple occasions, people wanting something really badly often say things they don't mean in order to win support for their position.

Ask yourself what the people involved in a controversy want. What do the protagonists in this controversy actually want? Given the nature of the OP -- with its unveiled threat to go to "the media" if FD don't do what they want -- I'd suggest that the goal is simply power over the design direction of the game. The SDC are a PvP crew. Everything else they post flows from there.

It's remarkably similar to the simulated faction politics of E:D - power grabs, threats, backstabbing. I've seen enough of both to know my opinion. That's all I have to say on the matter.
 
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