Do you have any evidence to support your assertion? Because Fortnite & a whole bunch of similar games seem to disagree with you.
Another solution to ganker problem
- Thread starter Condor
- Start date
Isn't fortnight pure pvp game?
they are structural PvP games where everyone is on equal footing. Structural PvP is fine and usually does well.
Open world PvP games in which, due to the nature of progress, not everyone is on equal footing, do have these issues. Especially those with loss of gear/progress on death exacerbate the new player erosion because they became punching bags for clubbers with no way out of the situation ever.
Guild Wars 2 f.ex. doesn't have open world PvP and the two modes that feature PvP (Structural PvP and World vs World) use scaling to bring everyone on (roughly) equal power.
Open World PvP became entirely optional and no longer bound to specific servers in World of Warcraft since the Battle for Azeroth expansion.
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ED isn't based around PvP of course, but PvP is also optional in this game.
Gankers may reduce the overall amount of players in open (intuitively I imagine most at Deciat and the CG system) but overall there are plenty of "targets" in Open most of the time, in most places.
The arguement that player count (even in Open, even in CGs/shin/Deciat) is significantly reduced is nonsense.
Not that there is any evidence for either.
The /thread is either engage with learning the skills needed to avoid PvP and play in Open, block, or choose a different mode.
But what we will have for another 400 posts is people not able to quietly make that choice.
Gankers may reduce the overall amount of players in open (intuitively I imagine most at Deciat and the CG system) but overall there are plenty of "targets" in Open most of the time, in most places.
The arguement that player count (even in Open, even in CGs/shin/Deciat) is significantly reduced is nonsense.
Not that there is any evidence for either.
The /thread is either engage with learning the skills needed to avoid PvP and play in Open, block, or choose a different mode.
But what we will have for another 400 posts is people not able to quietly make that choice.
Just looking for some evidence to support this assertion.
Have a read of this:
Yes the whole thing, it'll help you to understand even if you disagree with some aspect of the analysis (it covers potential shortcomings of the classification too).
Games that foster positive interactions have significantly less amounts of griefers. See Deep Rock Galactic for example. No one likes bullies.
Lack of forced PvP (ED has forced PvP because the only mode, open, which has the option to meet strangers without third party tools doesn't prohibit it) is not the reason for griefers to exist.
Griefers exist because of human psychology, of the necessity to vent out frustration, the desire to make others as miserable as their life (in their perception) is.
Sure, ED is not designed around as a playground for those griefers, but inadvertently enables griefers due to the nature of the game's possible interactions.
Such unwanted interactions are fortunately mitigable by the set of tools provided to the player, but they are not impossible.
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So you understand that there is a need for balance and games can be optimised to favour or deter particular playstyles but not eliminated them completely in an environment where players can interact (even if that's just a forum & not in the actual game, there's plenty of killers on this forum).
Each individual does not fit into only one classification, and many display traits of all four types. It also varies depending on mood etc, I've had this discussion (and taken the test) several times over the years & in general I am more explorer & more killer than I used to be.
You say that no one likes bullies, but a lot of people do enjoy seeing a bully get their comeuppance, and killers do that too. I don't enjoy getting sent to the rebuy screen by another player (especially if it seemed embarrassingly easy for them) but I enjoy denying them that pleasure enormously. Without killers out there trying to stop me my game would be much less rich.
ED appeals to Griefer types, and it seems clear to me that is intentional. The game designers create hotspots (CGs, engineer systems etc) where players are motivated to gather socially (because it's fun), and as an intrinsic part of that social gathering people will be targeted by killers (because it's fun).
If you want to be able to meet lots of other players, not all of those players will like you or be nice. If you go to a rock concert you have to keep your wallet safe from pickpockets. If you want to go to a hotspot in open you have to be prepared for confrontation, even if it's just someone complaining that you are sat on the pad for too long, or you feeling that the Cmdr on the pad is deliberately ignoring the queue waiting to dock.
The game needs killers/griefers/gankers. Not too many, but not too few either. It offers plenty of ways to avoid them too, but in avoiding them one must accept that they are removing opportunities to be sociable too.
No, it's because of the lack of other options. DBOBE ruled out PvE mode due to the implications set by the engine.
If griefing enablement was intentional we wouldn't have blocking or non-open modes.
it does not. The game would work fine as a PvE centric game if it was built that way from the ground up like any modern MMO.
I perform OSINT regularly and have a well sized block list to eventually give myself the experience i desire.
It's a game about flying armed & armoured spaceships. If it were PvE only players would just get griefed in a different way (via the BGS for example, or kill stealing, or arguing on a forum).
It was built from the ground up to be PvE centric, but it also allows for PvP. It's easy to avoid the PvP bit.
Mostly. But not so when you need co-op gameplay.
That's the nature of popularity contests and can also be seen in parliaments of parliamentary democracies, but i wouldn't call it griefing.
What do you call griefing?
Can pad blocking be griefing? What about station rammers that get you blown up by the station guns for killing them? Or filling every fleet carrier slot to deny access to a system?
For that the onus is on FDev to curb that behaviour using punitive measures or to make it by the game design impossible. FDev however didn't (or rather, did give up on due to the shortcomings of the fundament of the game itself) and instead gave the onus back to the player to deal against it (f. ex. by blocking and relog)
ED was designed under assumptions that were proven to be false very early on and suffers under the consequences of these design flaws.
It is futile to argue with you about it as you would try to further bring your case only for it to be refuted by me or someone else.
I suggest closure of this topic with a redirect to the Hotel California megathread.
The answer is of rhetorical nature which you would use and alter to only try to further your futile agenda.
Griefing is abusive behaviour to make others miserable. BGS, PP, CGs and other world altering actions are intentionally driven as popularity contests requiring the CONSENSUS of all participants to agree on a result by the SUM of every participant's action. BGSing is therefore not griefing.
Discussing this is futile.
I wasn't sure what you meant by this but I guess you are talking about finding people to play with. Obviously if you already have friends/other players you trust co-op in a private group is easy.
For finding & making friends in the first place sure, Open probably is the best place for that & there is some inherent risk in that. That's not unique to this game.
You said:
I'm not trying to trap you
I'm sure you can appreciate that 'griefing' is subjective, different people consider different things to be griefing.
Exactly this: weeks of effort can be destroyed, whereas for most players the consequences of the rebuy screen are very limited. Personally I would much rather be blown up by someone I can see and then maybe chat to, than an invisible group of players.
Like say AX combat, Thargs can make mincemeat of solo pilots. So basically you need open mode, but that produces unwanted people too.
I would say the term griefing could easily be used for BGS conflict, if only for the level of angst it causes, I have seen some pretty spicy exchanges on discord. In terms of pvp, griefing would be a series of attempts to gank another player across multiple play sessions, just like BGS now I come to think of it!