Any grind, is in your mind.

[Deadspin]

Sorry, but without referencing verifiable, trustworthy dictionary i can't agree on definition of this term. Try again. Because your opinion is as good as mine.

I believe Shar has posted a valid definition for you. My definitions were sourced from Wikipedia, where the author sourced his definition from the following:

1. Sorens, Neil (2007-03-26). "Rethinking the MMO". Gamasutra. Retrieved 2009-03-06.
2. Thompson, Clive (2008-07-28). "Back to the Grind in WoW — and Loving Every Tedious Minute". Wired. Retrieved 2009-03-06.

Given that nobody has refuted those sources in the 7 years that the article has been up, I think they'll do nicely.

Question born of curiosity, and please don't take this wrong, i just genuinely have no idea.

if you don't like the "grind" or feel there is too little/no reward, then why do you play?

Loads of people come on the forums to moan and yet are still playing, is it just a way to vent?

ok, so that came out as 2 questions but if someone can genuinely answer that would be great.

Despite Shar seeming to think that none of us will answer you P), I was dealing with a work issue and then took a smoke break. Now I'm back.

I despise the grind because there is no real reward for it. That being said, I try to avoid it at all costs. Like others have pointed out, there are aspects of the game which some may consider a grind that I don't. Like supporting the Diamond Frogs in-game faction. It may be tedious work but it is required work to keep us afloat and expanding at the rate we're looking to see.

Usually, when I jump into an argument or debate here on the forums, I do so with the intention of refuting poorly formed opinions and ideas. I personally don't care very much about many of the issues because Elite isn't the only game that I play and I'm 100% confident that it's only going to get better over time. Shadragon's OP in this thread was.. ..well, it wasn't a good post. Since then I've been defending the fact that grind does exist with Elite against the "but you're not playing the right way if you're grinding" crowd, because there really isn't a "right" way to play the game.

It is a sandbox, after all. I'll build my castles out of whatever the hell I want to do it with, however I want to do it.

 

[Bran Tse Mallory]

The gaming industry says you're wrong and don't make such asinine responses.

33 Years and counting in the gaming industry... how about you? Thought so.

 

[Deadspin]

33 Years and counting in the gaming industry... how about you? Thought so.

In the gaming industry or playing games? Lets not confuse the two.

 

[Bran Tse Mallory]

In the gaming industry or playing games? Lets not confuse the two.

Both I am pleased to say

 

[fu9ar]

I believe Shar has posted a valid definition for you. My definitions were sourced from Wikipedia, where the author sourced his definition from the following:

1. Sorens, Neil (2007-03-26). "Rethinking the MMO". Gamasutra. Retrieved 2009-03-06.
2. Thompson, Clive (2008-07-28). "Back to the Grind in WoW — and Loving Every Tedious Minute". Wired. Retrieved 2009-03-06.

Given that nobody has refuted those sources in the 7 years that the article has been up, I think they'll do nicely.



Despite Shar seeming to think that none of us will answer you P), I was dealing with a work issue and then took a smoke break. Now I'm back.

I despise the grind because there is no real reward for it. That being said, I try to avoid it at all costs. Like others have pointed out, there are aspects of the game which some may consider a grind that I don't. Like supporting the Diamond Frogs in-game faction. It may be tedious work but it is required work to keep us afloat and expanding at the rate we're looking to see.

Usually, when I jump into an argument or debate here on the forums, I do so with the intention of refuting poorly formed opinions and ideas. I personally don't care very much about many of the issues because Elite isn't the only game that I play and I'm 100% confident that it's only going to get better over time. Shadragon's OP in this thread was.. ..well, it wasn't a good post. Since then I've been defending the fact that grind does exist with Elite against the "but you're not playing the right way if you're grinding" crowd, because there really isn't a "right" way to play the game.

It is a sandbox, after all. I'll build my castles out of whatever the hell I want to do it with, however I want to do it.

I think you are blatantly ignoring the fact that "grinding" clearly has a negative connotation.

The argument has been more about what "grinding" means, but it clearly has a negative connotation, associated with "boring" "dull" "repetitive" and "unchallenging."

You are trying to refute the connotation by turning to a context free definition. Rhetoric doesn't work like that.

 

[dreamer1986]

But is that bad to say that it takes too much time to obtain certain things in game? I wanted to do some missions to gain some imperial ranks a few weeks ago, but it got so boring and it took so much time, that I had to take a break. You might say its not the game for me, and maybe you are right, but I enjoy certain aspects of it, played a couple of hundred hours, and I just want to have fun, and feel my time is well spent. But on a lot of the activities in ED I feel my time is wasted on repetitive tasks that are not fun. You might also say that since I played hundreds of hours I had fun, but the truth is, that most of the time it was just going back and forth trading alone or for CG, or doing repetitive tasks, like fighting pirates, or mining, or scanning planets. 90% of the time spent was not fun. Honestly, Euro Truck Simulator provides a more entertaining trading experience than what I found in Elite.

Call it grind or whatever you want, I just call them boring time wasters. Eventually I will reinstall Elite, when I will miss the great atmosphere, and when I will be satisfied with how the missions and community goals are improved, but for now, there are other games that provide actual fun to do things.

 

[DaveB]

...Since then I've been defending the fact that grind does exist with Elite against the "but you're not playing the right way if you're grinding" crowd, because there really isn't a "right" way to play the game...

I'm going to call you on this line, Deadspin, in the spirit of your own intention of refuting poorly formed arguments.

Sure, there are activities in the game that can be a grind. I don't think anyone is denying that. As somebody who agrees with the spirit of the OP I sure am not!

The thing is, though, that "grinding" is an attitude. There ARE ways to play that almost any player can find that will not be a grind to them. Anyone griping about grinding has set themselves a goal that requires them to indulge in activities that they find "grindy". While I may respect their reasons for doing so and may even admire the goal they have set themselves, the fact remains that it was their choice and they didn't have to. That's not saying they re playing it somehow "wrong", but they ARE playing it in a way that requires them to grind. Those of us that are sufficiently averse to grind that we won't do that, don't do that.

To use a personal example, I don't find trade to be a grind, and that's the activity that perhaps I've heard described as grindy more than any other since release. Sure I could take an a-b-a route and flatten it but that's not the way I trade. I seek out profitable loops of 3 or more stops where I'm minimizing my own impact on the local economy at any of the stops and thus the route is sustainable. I look for multiple overlapping loops where I can switch between one and another whenever the fancy takes me or whenever I notice a bonus to picking one over the other. Third party tools don't work for this so it's all on me. The emotional reward of finding a good setup like that is worth more than the credits. That's why I never did the Sothis or Robigo thing. Grabbing another mouthful off the same spoon over and over again didn't do it for me. I"m not saying the players for whom that's ok are "playing it wrong" in any way, just that if they are doing that and griping about the grind, they DO have alternatives. I know, because I've found them. They didn't HAVE to grind. Nobody does.

 

[Jools]

almost two years after release and the variety of tasks has barely changed

Time to redefine the definitions to suit our fanboy agenda, and lets also call everybody who hates the low quality repetitive gameplay a "boring" person... not only will we finally show them (HA!) we will also cuddle our own ego (I`m so not boring! oh man!)

 

[Deadspin]

I think you are blatantly ignoring the fact that "grinding" clearly has a negative connotation.

The argument has been more about what "grinding" means, but it clearly has a negative connotation, associated with "boring" "dull" "repetitive" and "unchallenging."

You are trying to refute the connotation by turning to a context free definition. Rhetoric doesn't work like that.

And you've done nothing but refute any and all arguments against your opinion with attempts at witty insults and pure sarcasm, which is why I've pointedly ignored everything you've said up until now. I'm not blatantly ignoring anything. The grind in Elite exists and for some people it absolutely sucks. I'm not trying to paint it in some bright white, shiny light of "its alright" at all. It's a negative thing and to brush it off using a line as simple as "you're doing it wrong if you're experiencing grind" is completely asinine.

If you can contribute beyond a simplistic attack and actually provide a bit of reasoning back in my direction, I'll gladly accept it. Until then, just move along.

I'm going to call you on this line, Deadspin, in the spirit of your own intention of refuting poorly formed arguments.

Sure, there are activities in the game that can be a grind. I don't think anyone is denying that. As somebody who agrees with the spirit of the OP I sure am not!

The thing is, though, that "grinding" is an attitude. There ARE ways to play that almost any player can find that will not be a grind to them. Anyone griping about grinding has set themselves a goal that requires them to indulge in activities that they find "grindy". While I may respect their reasons for doing so and may even admire the goal they have set themselves, the fact remains that it was their choice and they didn't have to. That's not saying they re playing it somehow "wrong", but they ARE playing it in a way that requires them to grind. Those of us that are sufficiently averse to grind that we won't do that, don't do that.

To use a personal example, I don't find trade to be a grind, and that's the activity that perhaps I've heard described as grindy more than any other since release. Sure I could take an a-b-a route and flatten it but that's not the way I trade. I seek out profitable loops of 3 or more stops where I'm minimizing my own impact on the local economy at any of the stops and thus the route is sustainable. I look for multiple overlapping loops where I can switch between one and another whenever the fancy takes me or whenever I notice a bonus to picking one over the other. Third party tools don't work for this so it's all on me. The emotional reward of finding a good setup like that is worth more than the credits. That's why I never did the Sothis or Robigo thing. Grabbing another mouthful off the same spoon over and over again didn't do it for me. I"m not saying the players for whom that's ok are "playing it wrong" in any way, just that if they are doing that and griping about the grind, they DO have alternatives. I know, because I've found them. They didn't HAVE to grind. Nobody does.

My turn:

Anyone that complains about grinding has set goals requiring them to indulge in activities that they find "grindy".

So basically, anyone playing this game should avoid setting goals for themselves in order to avoid even the slightest bit of grind? That's what it sounds like you're saying to me with your reply. Don't get me wrong, I completely understand what you are saying. I get that there is a way to play the game and not experience the grind, it's how I started with ED, it's how I play right now, but if that's the only way to play the game and avoid any and all "grindy" feelings, it means that there's something wrong with the game at the foundation.

Now, with that being said, I don't think it makes Elite a bad game. I really don't. Which really makes me scratch my head at how viciously people are defending the "there is no grind" line of thought in this thread. There is absolutely a grind. Looking away doesn't make it go away. If I want to increase my fed rep with the play style described by so many to "avoid the grind" then I'm still grinding as long as I've set that goal because it means I will repeat the same series of missions (Kill X, deliver X, steal X, Pay X to support us, etc) for however many minor factions it takes to become allied and gain some Fed rep. The same goes for the Empire.

All because I've set a goal for myself rather than wander around aimlessly in Fed or Empire space, taking missions and collecting things as I come across them. Forgive me if I sound snide but the whole idea behind this argument is just silly.

To say there is no grind is willful ignorance.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

My turn:

Anyone that complains about grinding has set goals requiring them to indulge in activities that they find "grindy".

So basically, anyone playing this game should avoid setting goals for themselves in order to avoid even the slightest bit of grind? That's what it sounds like you're saying to me with your reply. Don't get me wrong, I completely understand what you are saying. I get that there is a way to play the game and not experience the grind, it's how I started with ED, it's how I play right now, but if that's the only way to play the game and avoid any and all "grindy" feelings, it means that there's something wrong with the game at the foundation.

Now, with that being said, I don't think it makes Elite a bad game. I really don't. Which really makes me scratch my head at how viciously people are defending the "there is no grind" line of thought in this thread. There is absolutely a grind. Looking away doesn't make it go away. If I want to increase my fed rep with the play style described by so many to "avoid the grind" then I'm still grinding as long as I've set that goal because it means I will repeat the same series of missions (Kill X, deliver X, steal X, Pay X to support us, etc) for however many minor factions it takes to become allied and gain some Fed rep. The same goes for the Empire.

All because I've set a goal for myself rather than wander around aimlessly in Fed or Empire space, taking missions and collecting things as I come across them. Forgive me if I sound snide but the whole idea behind this argument is just silly.

To say there is no grind is willful ignorance.

I could be very daft and all, but removing the arguing for argument's sake, to a pillock like me it sounds as if your arguments are quite similar.

Take your last comment, now take DaveB's: Sure, there are activities in the game that can be a grind.
You: I get that there is a way to play the game and not experience the grind, it's how I started with ED, it's how I play right now. DaveB: There ARE ways to play that almost any player can find that will not be a grind to them.
You give an example of setting a goal and having go through the grind, which is also DaveB's point.

Are you sure you're not accidentally agreeing with each other?

 

[DaveB]

My turn:

Anyone that complains about grinding has set goals requiring them to indulge in activities that they find "grindy".

So basically, anyone playing this game should avoid setting goals for themselves in order to avoid even the slightest bit of grind? That's what it sounds like you're saying to me with your reply. Don't get me wrong, I completely understand what you are saying. I get that there is a way to play the game and not experience the grind, it's how I started with ED, it's how I play right now, but if that's the only way to play the game and avoid any and all "grindy" feelings, it means that there's something wrong with the game at the foundation.

Now, with that being said, I don't think it makes Elite a bad game. I really don't. Which really makes me scratch my head at how viciously people are defending the "there is no grind" line of thought in this thread. There is absolutely a grind. Looking away doesn't make it go away. If I want to increase my fed rep with the play style described by so many to "avoid the grind" then I'm still grinding as long as I've set that goal because it means I will repeat the same series of missions (Kill X, deliver X, steal X, Pay X to support us, etc) for however many minor factions it takes to become allied and gain some Fed rep. The same goes for the Empire.

All because I've set a goal for myself rather than wander around aimlessly in Fed or Empire space, taking missions and collecting things as I come across them. Forgive me if I sound snide but the whole idea behind this argument is just silly.

To say there is no grind is willful ignorance.

I think we're more in agreement than disagreement, to be honest.

Yes there is grind in ED. To turn my original argument on it's head I think that there is a way for ANY ED player to set themselves goals that will lock them into a horrendous grind. That's a natural corollary from my initial statements. You want to be an apex PvPer, you're going to need engineered mods. If you find collecting the stuff you need to do that efficiently a grind, you're GOING to be grinding. You avoid the grind by setting yourself goals that you, personally, don't need to grind to achieve. If you want to be an apex PvPer but don't want to grind engineers, you need to make a choice between your want for the goal and your dislike for the process. If you're sufficiently averse to the process then set yourself a different goal and abandon the original.

The guy a couple blocks down sat at his own computer who sets himself those very same goals may not find those activities a grind at all. If you set yourself a goal and that requires you to (subjectively) grind, you CHOSE to grind.


ETA Darn it, Ziggy. The ninja that fell to earth!

 

[mossfoot]

Just wanted to agree 100% with the OP. A grind is what you make of it, and if I start feeling repetative/bored at what I'm currently doing, I start thinking about a career change for a while, or a new objective, maybe tweak my ship a bit at an Engineer, maybe go exploring, work missions, do some bounty hunting, whatever floats my boat at the time.

It's been working for me for two years now... can't say any other game has kept me hooked anywhere near this long.

 

[fu9ar]

And you've done nothing but refute any and all arguments against your opinion with attempts at witty insults and pure sarcasm, which is why I've pointedly ignored everything you've said up until now. I'm not blatantly ignoring anything. The grind in Elite exists and for some people it absolutely sucks. I'm not trying to paint it in some bright white, shiny light of "its alright" at all. It's a negative thing and to brush it off using a line as simple as "you're doing it wrong if you're experiencing grind" is completely asinine.

If you can contribute beyond a simplistic attack and actually provide a bit of reasoning back in my direction, I'll gladly accept it. Until then, just move along.

Here's the simple points. I'll number them for you because you clearly have trouble rezzing what YT is saying.

1. If some people find the game grindy, and some people don't. Then the grindiness of the game is necessarily subjective. That's how subjectivity works.

2. If people who find the game grindy are unhappy about the grind, the answer is to change themselves by managing their expectations so that they map to realistic goals, not to incessantly whine to FDev to change the game.

3. The people who whine incessantly to change the game are irritating, so I mock and am sarcastic about it because I want them to STOP POSTING.

 

[Bran Tse Mallory]

My turn:

Anyone that complains about grinding has set goals requiring them to indulge in activities that they find "grindy".

So basically, anyone playing this game should avoid setting goals for themselves in order to avoid even the slightest bit of grind? That's what it sounds like you're saying to me with your reply. Don't get me wrong, I completely understand what you are saying. I get that there is a way to play the game and not experience the grind, it's how I started with ED, it's how I play right now, but if that's the only way to play the game and avoid any and all "grindy" feelings, it means that there's something wrong with the game at the foundation.

Now, with that being said, I don't think it makes Elite a bad game. I really don't. Which really makes me scratch my head at how viciously people are defending the "there is no grind" line of thought in this thread. There is absolutely a grind. Looking away doesn't make it go away. If I want to increase my fed rep with the play style described by so many to "avoid the grind" then I'm still grinding as long as I've set that goal because it means I will repeat the same series of missions (Kill X, deliver X, steal X, Pay X to support us, etc) for however many minor factions it takes to become allied and gain some Fed rep. The same goes for the Empire.

All because I've set a goal for myself rather than wander around aimlessly in Fed or Empire space, taking missions and collecting things as I come across them. Forgive me if I sound snide but the whole idea behind this argument is just silly.

To say there is no grind is willful ignorance.

From what you are saying about the Fed rep - can you not see that it is a choice made by the player to achieve this? The game has various mission types each with a reward of influence towards the rank desired, the number of missions you need to complete would be lower if you take the higher ranked missions - again a form of choice given to you to help reduce the amount of time required to get the rank you want. It is your own desire that has created the need to do the work, it's all been your choice to satisfy this self made need/want.

If I set myself the goal of becoming a YouTube star I would have to make a ton of video's, market them, do lots of social media stuff to promote the channel - in other words, I'd have to put in some effort. The more I put in the more chance I have of reaching my goal faster. Just as in this game we have a similar set of choices facing us. Before resetting my save several months ago I wanted an Imp. Clipper and so I started to do missions for the Empire - At any time I got even a little board of them I started doing other things in game as a change of pace and threw in the occasional mission when I saw a decent one (one I would enjoy doing). Sure it was going to take me along time playing this way to get the ship but at no point did I feel like I was grinding my way through the game.

In my mind your closing comment would be: To say there is a grind is to deny yourself the ability to choose.

This is a debate that will continue to crop up on the forums and in my own opinion is a direct result of the 'Have now' generation who seem to think every thing should be handed to them on a plate as opposed to working for it. Let's put the question a different way: If you were given access to the ship on the understanding that you would only work towards the rank until it is achieved, would you still take the ship?

 

[Martian Successor]

This is a debate that will continue to crop up on the forums and in my own opinion is a direct result of the 'Have now' generation who seem to think every thing should be handed to them on a plate as opposed to working for it.

And now we have the "entitled generation" dehumanisation fallacy rearing its ugly head. Oh boy. When in doubt cast blame upon an entire generation of people for doing the whole 'life' thing wrong. Do you realise how wrong that sounds?

Thank you for bringing that particular dead horse to the table Bran. No offense but I assumed you were better than that. Maybe we can get some Hitler comments in so this thread can do the full circle of Internet fallacies and casual nastiness towards thy fellow human being.

 

[Bran Tse Mallory]

And now we have the "entitled generation" dehumanisation fallacy rearing its ugly head. Oh boy. When in doubt cast blame upon an entire generation of people for doing the whole 'life' thing wrong. Do you realise how wrong that sounds?

Thank you for bringing that particular dead horse to the table Brian. No offense but I assumed you were better than that. Maybe we can get some Hitler comments in so this thread can do the full circle of Internet fallacies and casual nastiness towards thy fellow human being.

I am allowed to have an opinion and that is it, sorry if you don't like it - I in no way try to impose it on others. As for Brian - who's he?

EDIT: I should also point out I put myself into this generation too. Instant gratification from rewards given often - basic formula for making an arcade game, just as we've had since the early 80's with a few exceptions such as Elite which has always made the player work for there reward.

 

[Martian Successor]

I am allowed to have an opinion and that is it, sorry if you don't like it - I in no way try to impose it on others. As for Brian - who's he?

Yes you are. And yep, I don't care for that part of it at all unfortunately. C'est la vie.

Sorry for misspelling your name. And after I got mine mispelled in this thread as well. Corrected now

 

[DaveB]

And now we have the "entitled generation" dehumanisation fallacy rearing its ugly head. Oh boy. When in doubt cast blame upon an entire generation of people for doing the whole 'life' thing wrong. Do you realise how wrong that sounds?

Thank you for bringing that particular dead horse to the table Bran. No offense but I assumed you were better than that. Maybe we can get some Hitler comments in so this thread can do the full circle of Internet fallacies and casual nastiness towards thy fellow human being.

I note you "cherry pick" that aspect of his post but nonetheless say nothing to refute his other reasoning. If we are calling out rhetorical fallacies you just put your foot straight in to ad hominem. Care to fix that at all?

 

[Truesilver]

Two things:-

Firstly, as usual this thread has spun an argument over a question of degree into something binary, as if we are all either in favour of never getting access to all ships or getting that access instantly on purchase.

This is absurd.

Don't we all agree that the in-game time from purchase to acquisition of (eg) a max-specced and fully RNGineered Corvette should be greater than 1 hour yet less than 10,000 hours? And if so, aren't we really just discussing our preferred scale?

Secondly, whatever the timeframe, what is wrong with asking for the manner of acquisition of assets within that timeframe to be made more interesting - more requiring of learning and the development of skills, rather than time'n'Netflix ?

 

[Jex =TE=]

Jex, we can't 'change that record' until you guys start putting 'in my opinion' or 'imo' at the end of your posts, you have to see that those of you claiming grind in Elite as a universal constant are wrong, it is opinion, an opinion you are allowed to hold, that is all it is.

In terms of rebuttals, well, what do you want those of us not grinding to do Jex?. Maybe list a series of aspects of Elite that we enjoy?, here is what would happen if we did that, you, (and others), would list that action or actions in a simplistic way and then ask us 'how is that not grindy' or 'how is that engaging', what would be the point in that?

And please stop with the pathetic passive/aggressive insults, 'if you can't understand, move on', come on Jex, you aren't the only one that did GCSE English, what possibly could I not 'understand'? If you want a debate about why Elite Dangerous is a grind in certain areas in your opinion, fine, let's debate away, if you are just gonna bury your head in the sand and go 'NA NA NA, it's a grind for everyone cos I say so' then there is no debate to be had.

But we're not arguing opinion, Theo - we're going by established facts of game design which we've outlined by at least 5 different posters with substantial explanation and examples given. Maybe it would be better if you went back over some and brought up examples where you disagree because we're not going to get anywhere from here. I think to move this forward you need to raise specific points given by several people here where you disagree?

Additional: I'm not being passive agresssive I'm being serious, sorry! The amount of explanation given leads me to believe you don't understand the argument - that doesn't means that's on you - our explanations might be that bad lol