Are we avoiding the elephant in the room - wing missions.

[ZeroAi]

The beta forum is full of long threads about engineers. Too grindy, not grindy, balanced, out of balance... chieftain blah blah..

Are we not missing the point. An engineer grind with a different face on it or a material trader with different conversion rates doesn't entice me or the people I know back into the game.

We've asked for wing missions for years and now they are in the silence here is deafening. Nailing wing missions is crucial to bringing people back to the game surely. I can't persuade people who have taken a long break from elite with "the engineer grind is different", or "now when you commit crime you get huge fines, one shotted by magic NPCs", or "the planets look slightly different".

Wing missions finally encourage small group play and spread reward across the wing. Isn't this huge? Do they work? Are they any good or is the balance right?... silence...

This is the single biggest thing for frontier to nail in my mind, but seems to be getting no air time. Thoughts?

+Rep

I really hope Wing Missions turn out well.

We tried them launch night, but unfortunately they were not working (as was posted in plain sight)

That said, without Wing Missions trying to do missions other than Combat in a Wing can be frustrating (as we experience each Wednesday night in our livestreams.)

Side Note: MC

I also really wish my multi-crew "crew mates" could make money at something other than combat.

All Fdev needs to do to enable this is force crewmates to take a role "exclusively" in order to get paid.

If the host / pilot can't complete the mission alone (say by giving another crew member exclusive access to plotting the route and requesting docking permission) then the worries about an AFK crew member getting rich is resolved.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

I'm not avoiding Elephant in the room wing missions. They sound intriguing!

What must the wing do on this mission?

Where does one find this mission?

I need answers.

 

[OHMSS]

That's great. It's meant to be! I put this image up in the thread showing our avatars when we first got holo me.
http://i.imgur.com/XSWRVOz.jpg

Haha! That's brilliant!

 

[SAB380]

I thought the elephant in the room was that space legs and complex atmospheres are never going to happen.

 

[Nerix]

Just curious, if Sandro and Ed answered below stated question about Wing missions / missions in general in the Discussion Livestream a few days ago (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1UHx5MbejE).

Anyone has seen all of it and can remember if it was answered? Thanks!

Do you have any plans to develop the mission system in a direction, where all missions can be played in a wing? So basically having one, consistent mission system based on the new mission template introduced with wing missions in 3.0.

Arguments and discussion about that see this thread: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...=1#post6306178

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ndy-Sammarco?p=6397020&viewfull=1#post6397020

 

[Susanna]

The beta forum is full of long threads about engineers. Too grindy, not grindy, balanced, out of balance... chieftain blah blah..

Are we not missing the point. An engineer grind with a different face on it or a material trader with different conversion rates doesn't entice me or the people I know back into the game.

We've asked for wing missions for years and now they are in the silence here is deafening. Nailing wing missions is crucial to bringing people back to the game surely. I can't persuade people who have taken a long break from elite with "the engineer grind is different", or "now when you commit crime you get huge fines, one shotted by magic NPCs", or "the planets look slightly different".

Wing missions finally encourage small group play and spread reward across the wing. Isn't this huge? Do they work? Are they any good or is the balance right?... silence...

This is the single biggest thing for frontier to nail in my mind, but seems to be getting no air time. Thoughts?

I'm provisionally interested in winged missions but the caveat for me is that wings are themselves a little unstable... Building a winged mission system on top of this seems a suspect approach to me, and likely to lead to bugged wing missions.

If it works great! If you are in the enviable position to have friends that you can wing up with and play missions together, good for you! We all know what the community made of multicrew though... I guess we won't know until it goes live now.

 

[Susanna]

1) Wing missions will occupy a place alongside Multicrew and PowerPlay in terms of interest.
2) If wing missions can be completed alone they might make for novel little "Mini-CGs" for a player so inclined.
3) Is there any beer in the fridge?

The mini-CG thing is what interests me, especially if it offers a means of obtaining rare materials!

 

[Susanna]

It's hard to judge if they work or if they're good. There are only a couple of mission types in the beta. The main one you see is "Deliver 1,000+ tones of cargo over there." I've tried a few of these solo and haven't come across any problems. I've also seen a couple where you have to kill a pirate lord. Since I was experimenting solo, I didn't try that one.

My initial thoughts? They are nice I guess. It's not gonna feel like a drastic change I don't think - the mechanics are basically the same, just bigger goal targets to hit. But it's nice that you can do them with wingmates. I like that you can also do them solo if that's your thing. It's a nice QoL addition, but I don't see it drastically changing people's opinions on the game.

I hope they change all the missions over to this new system. Mission to carry 64 tons of cargo, but only have a hauler? No problem, you can make multiple trips.

Being able to complete missions in multiple steps could be a big bonus for many players!

 

[Susanna]

I honestly think the lack of multiplayer missions until now, coupled with the disconnects and instancing issues that have been around since 2014 have torpedoed Elite's reputation as a game you can play with friends. I also think wing missions are going to go the same route as Powerplay, CQC and Multicrew, with a small contingent of players who clutch on to the promise that the game mode promotes, but the community has a whole loses patience with it because of the issues and stops playing, and when people stop playing the few who want to try it can't find players, culminating in the devs saying "We'll support it if people play it" which then results in the mode dying on the vine.

Most of the posts I've seen involving wing missions are from solo players asking why the mode exists. Is anyone testing them in a wing?

I am. For me, they're not perfect, but they're a huge improvement over the co-op play we've got now (which is nonexistant outside of RES/CZ farming) but boy does it have problems. Just like CQC and Multicrew, there are instancing problems. Dropping in on an assassination target can work perfectly, or it can take two or three attempts to get into the same instance. So the fight might be won or lost by the time all the wing gets there. The trading wing missions are a good idea, basically creating a one-day CG for players to complete, but again it has issues with how they are shared which are bound to lead to abuse or result in huge fines/penalties if the players drop out and can't reconnect.

I really wonder how big the Elite: Dangerous co-op mutiplayer community can be these days. It's got great potential but it's a punishing experience for people who just want to work as a team. But wing missions, with the beta ending after a week are in a half-implemented state, just like PP, CQC and MC were... and look what's been done with them.

I'll be playing the hell out of them the best I can with the one CMDR I know who's still into co-op, but for dedicated co-op in the game as a whole, I wonder if it's too little, too late.

Once I'm back on my feet in a month or so, I'll happily play in a wing! Just pm me.

 

[Funny]

I’m just hoping they’ll finally buff assasination payouts.

 

[Nerix]

Anyone who knows if they answered the wing mission related question in the stream?

Do you have any plans to develop the mission system in a direction, where all missions can be played in a wing? So basically having one, consistent mission system based on the new mission template introduced with wing missions in 3.0.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ndy-Sammarco?p=6397020&viewfull=1#post6397020

Arguments and discussion about that see this thread: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ing-missions?p=6306178&viewfull=1#post6306178

 

[Crank Larson]

Anyone who knows if they answered the wing mission related question in the stream?

Pretty sure that I heard that wing missions will be developed further, but solo missions will still be available. It makes no sense to remove solo missions, anyway (esp. when some people play in Solo mode).

 

[Quester91]

This is a post I made the first days of 2018 with a prediction of what wing mission would have been:

What makes you think it'll have any kind of depth though?

Judging by past experience, it's very much possible they'll release coop missions which will be the exact copy of the missions we have now, but with 2x the objectives. A shared mission so to speak.

I very highly doubt we'll have coop missions with different objectives where, for example, cmdr X attacks 3 vipers over a planetary base while cmdr Y infiltrate the base with the srv and shuts down the generator. It's way too complex for fdevs standards, and even if for some miracle they were able to do that, it'll be so bugged it'll basically be unplayable.

I'm calling it now:
Finding minerals will simply have a higher number required if accepting the mission with a friend.
Assassination missions will multiply the number of targets based on how many players are playing in coop.
Transporting biowaste will require all cmdrs to haul the same amount of doodoo to the same port.

And, knowing the brilliant game design philosophy at Frontier Dynamics, the bonus percentage for accepting the mission in coop will be so abysmally low it'll be, due to bugs and instancing problems, way more efficient if completed in solo.

Source

And, word by word, is exactly what we'll get judging by what we've seen in the beta.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

It seems to me that Wing Missions are the epitomy of what is wrong with FD's approach to the game.

Instead of taking two existing systems, Missions and Wings, and making them function together, they approach it as a wholly separate function.
Inevitably, they also approach it from a grind methodology - hey, it's 4 people, let's just make them 10 times the quantity or more.
Yes, I absolutely see the need for missions that require a wing because of either difficulty or scope, what I don't understand is limiting them to that and developing yet another separate system that will now inevitably be unbalanced compared to the existing one.

Oppurtunity missed yet again, and that's before even thinking about all the existing Wing issues.

 

[Crank Larson]

Yep, it's all doom round here...

I'm looking forward to the wing missions being in-game. I'd also much rather they keep both. Sometimes I'll want to do wing missions, sometimes I won't.

 

[Jigster]

Wing missions are not enough. Need something massive such as atmospheric landings to draw new players in.

 

[mtt9999 [Parabolus]]

I'm pumped for wing missions. As the system stands now the missions are either too short (take one jump to other system), too easy (assassination threat 4 is a joke even in medium ships), or too volitile.. wing haulauge missions like mini CGs for me sound great, or actually difficult assassination missions. I really hope they have crazy big missions with a purpose. For example, a minor faction is losing their influence in a nearby extraction economy system. They are asking for 12,000 tonnes of consumer technology delivered to that system to spread propaganda as a gesture of good will to the people in an effort to exert more influence. I would also really like long distance haulage missions (like 3000 tonnes) to systems around 120ly away.

 

[Eymerich]

I'm pumped for wing missions. As the system stands now the missions are either too short (take one jump to other system), too easy (assassination threat 4 is a joke even in medium ships), or too volitile.. wing haulauge missions like mini CGs for me sound great, or actually difficult assassination missions. I really hope they have crazy big missions with a purpose. For example, a minor faction is losing their influence in a nearby extraction economy system. They are asking for 12,000 tonnes of consumer technology delivered to that system to spread propaganda as a gesture of good will to the people in an effort to exert more influence. I would also really like long distance haulage missions (like 3000 tonnes) to systems around 120ly away.

about haulage missions you have already that: I did it countless time just before 3.0.

How? trading; doing an endless loop from a --> b.

What beta added about this topic? Absolutly nothing: just a number which will be reduced everytime you deliver what it's asked.

What is this? a new kind of mission... or just a simple while cycle?

 

[Drelthar]

I'm glad they are making these.

However, I cant help but feel what they needed to actually do, was to make all missions simply shareable, and then work on making all the missions more interesting.

So, any mission you can take now, you can just, share with your wing, once completed, everyone gets rewarded. No need to rework a load of stuff (except in the case of adding the depot thing, but just add that to the normal cargo missions we have already... )

Then, make new missions, in which as someone posted above, you have to take out a base, couple guys in SRVs taking out anti air defences, while the guy in the ship takes out ground defences, and any ships in the area.

Then, actually make all those things you can scan/hack at bases mean something.

Seriously, does anyone know what scanning the Operations node at a base does? As far as I can tell, it just gives you a message saying "Op net accessed" then that's it... it should do something!

There's also the comms hub you can "hack" which again, does nothing. For this one, it could make it so they cannot call in more re-inforcements if you've hacked it.

Theres also skimmer control things (which again, appear to do nothing) hacking these could have made it so skimmers shut down (or more interestingly, turn to your side and attack turrets)

Same with turret control.

Power generators should shut down powered things, like, turrets/forcefields (however, I think force fields actually can be interacted with like this)


Anyway... this would have been a tonne better.

Just make all missions shareable.

Now make extra cool NEW mission types, which are obviously, also shareable, and actually flesh out the cool ground base stuff for one thing. Also obviously utilise the new megaship interactions, and also apply that to scientific instalations and other CQC assets.



Seems like a bit of a missed opportunity, though I expect this is what the devs WANTED To do. I just don't think they have had the time, and ran into way more technical issues than they thought they would.

I still thinik their mission system has some kind of really deep rooted flaw that makes it insanely hard for the mission making devs to actually, make missions. It's the only viable explainaion for why the missions haven't really developed -that much- (no offence guys, assasinations with scanning bases, and such, are GREAT additions, but there is a lot of interesting possiblities that just seem to have been missed which look like easy wins)

 

[Nerix]

I think the upcoming wing mission system is a good start, but the request from many players is quite simple: some beginners would like to share a 15t, 10ly mission (like me, when I started the game with a few friends), some will solo a 2000t, 100ly mission.

FD heard those argument, but they seem to think that the effort for implementation is too high:

Is there a reason why all missions cannot be completed in wings? I feel like this should be player choice, for example, multiple small ships can take a mission that might normally need a single big ship.
It’s a tremendous amount of work, requiring a lot of new functionality (such as the mission depot, partial complete, etc.) and a reworking of almost every mission template in the game. It was only feasible to add wing missions the way we have.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...Part-1-Recap?p=6303149&viewfull=1#post6303149

At the risk of being an armchair developer: I think this effort would really be worth it. To have an uniform and consistent mission system based on the new mission template they already have created would be a really big thing. And I think most of the work was already done, a good argument from Mengy about this:

Adam, I'm not a coder for Frontier so I'm not privy to the source for Elite, BUT, wouldn't it just be easier to scrap the old templates and then increase the parameter ranges of the new wing templates to simply replace the old ones? I mean a cargo mission is a cargo mission, move this stuff over there, right? Assassinate missions are all "go here and kill this target". Whether they are solo missions or the wing missions the actual essence of the missions seem to be the same, the interface is different, but the wing missions are all in place with the depot and reward choices and all.

Maybe after I see this firsthand in the beta I'll realize there are more limitations than I can tell now, but man this seems like a great opportunity here, and with regard to migrating all of these mission types to wing missions with wide ranges of parameters it appears to me like the majority of the hard work is already done?

Let's see how things will develop with the new missions.

In addition to this, it would be great if they consider to add missions where wings are required. That could lead to some very cool missions, e.g. something like GTA Heists... (different roles required, players have to be at different places at the same time and communicate with each other). And this way around it would make sense: not all kind of missions can be done solo, but all solo missions can be done in a wing (even if the payout may be small).