arguement: Python vs Viper equal skill python SHOULD win

[Excalibrates]

A python vs a Viper 1 on 1 should not be an equal fight. Why not? Cost. What is the point in aspiring to own a Cr.100M ship that can carry the second highest weapon loadout in the game if it is equal 1v1 to a throwaway Viper? Take 30% hull damage in a Python and you are looking at Cr.600,000 to repair. A tank of fuel costs Cr.150,000. Insurance is upwards of Cr.6M.

I have no problem with 2 or more Vipers taking out a Python, that makes more sense. But a single Viper should have it really, really tough against a Python because the risks taken by each player are not equal.

Recent Python nerfs have gone too far; why does the Clipper out-spec it in most regards but costs 1/3 the price?

 

[Shads]

Depends where you fight. A viper pilot may have the advantage in an asteroid field if hes proficient at using cover.

 

[dreamer1986]

A python vs a Viper 1 on 1 should not be an equal fight. Why not? Cost. What is the point in aspiring to own a Cr.100M ship that can carry the second highest weapon loadout in the game if it is equal 1v1 to a throwaway Viper? Take 30% hull damage in a Python and you are looking at Cr.600,000 to repair. A tank of fuel costs Cr.150,000. Insurance is upwards of Cr.6M.

I have no problem with 2 or more Vipers taking out a Python, that makes more sense. But a single Viper should have it really, really tough against a Python because the risks taken by each player are not equal.

Recent Python nerfs have gone too far; why does the Clipper out-spec it in most regards but costs 1/3 the price?

I agree with you. +1 rep

 

[Defacto]

The Viper is a pure combat ship. the Python is not. The Python can do things the Viper can't, like doing stuff which doesn't involve shooting.
In a Viper vs Python situation, pretty much the only goal the Viper can have is to kill or pirate the Python. The Python, not being a combat ship, is in the process of doing something else, and the Viper is trying to hinder this from happening. If the Python survives, the Viper has failed in doing so, and the Python wins.

Python vs Viper, equal skill; Python wins.
If a Python and a Viper fight to the death would result in the Python always winning, that would obsolete the Viper. This will not happen.

 

[OneAmongOthers]

My Python is sux thread #9473987

 

[flynnmichael81]

I flew an A Grade Viper for over 1000 kills and have flown an A Grade Python since then, clocking up about 300. I've also tried both since the update. I consider myself a pretty decent fighter pilot, using FA off at times and having experimented with different loadouts. I imagine that I'm as qualified as anyone to say which ship is the better in the same persons hands.

That being said, anyone tat thinks a Viper can take down a Python (flown by someone of equal skill) is deluded! It was not that way before the balance and now shield cells are useless on a Viper it is even less the case. A Python with 2xC3 beams and 3xC2 MC (standard BH equipment) will pwn a Viper with similar standard fare! Of course, a viper can be equipped to do better against a Python but so can a Python be equipped better against a Viper.

 

[dreamer1986]

I flew an A Grade Viper for over 1000 kills and have flown an A Grade Python since then, clocking up about 300. I've also tried both since the update. I consider myself a pretty decent fighter pilot, using FA off at times and having experimented with different loadouts. I imagine that I'm as qualified as anyone to day which ship is the better in the same persons hands.

That being said, anyone tat thinks a Viper can take down a Python (flown by someone of equal skill) is deluded! It was not that way before the balance and now shield cells are useless on a Viper it is even less the case. A Python with 2xC3 beams and 3xC2 MC (standard BH equipment) will pwn a Viper with similar standard fare! Of course, a viper can be equipped to do better against a Python but so can a Python be equipped better against a Viper.

Its good to hear that from an experienced fighter pilot +1 rep

 

[Krollin]

Greetings,

Life isn't fair or balanced, so why should a game be....

Kro

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Python vs Viper, equal skill; Python wins.
If a Python and a Viper fight to the death would result in the Python always winning, that would obsolete the Viper. .

whilst ALWAYS is a step to far, it would not make the viper obsolete, it would just mean a viper you need a wingman

 

[babelfisch]

A python vs a Viper 1 on 1 should not be an equal fight. Why not? Cost. What is the point in aspiring to own a Cr.100M ship that can carry the second highest weapon loadout in the game if it is equal 1v1 to a throwaway Viper? Take 30% hull damage in a Python and you are looking at Cr.600,000 to repair. A tank of fuel costs Cr.150,000. Insurance is upwards of Cr.6M.

I have no problem with 2 or more Vipers taking out a Python, that makes more sense. But a single Viper should have it really, really tough against a Python because the risks taken by each player are not equal.

Recent Python nerfs have gone too far; why does the Clipper out-spec it in most regards but costs 1/3 the price?

Following your logic a T9 should beat a Python because it is more expensive. If you say the Python should be a better fighter than the Viper, well your point is just invalid. I have not heard an argument besides costs.

The Faulcon deLacy Viper Mk III is the latest development of the most successful fighter classes ever built.
The original Viper Defence Craft was designed by Faulcon Manspace in 2762 in the Reorte shipyards.
The basic model was beefed up with the Viper II by Faulcon deLacy.
The new Viper III is a revitalised model with a new more armoured look. It is a top class fighter found in many well equipped police and naval forces.

Most successful fighter class ever build... top class fighter...

Another classic design that has survived the centuries. The first vessel was constructed in 2700 by Whatt and Pritney Ship Constructions. With the demise of the company and after various mergers and takeovers the ship design is now owned by Faulcon deLacy. The ship remains the slow and sturdy craft it was originally famous for and some smaller navies still use this class as patrol cruisers (although tiny compared to the Imperial Interdictors and Federal Battle cruisers).

Slow... sturdy...

You think the Python should be something it was never designed to be. It was just that good because FDEV made a mistake in balancing which they fixed recently.
Keep in mind that we are still waiting for new ships. The one you are looking for will certainly be available at some time. But it is not the Python.

A last statement on ship classes: Think of the Python as a B52. The Viper is a MiG-21. The MiG-21 would always win.

 

[tagos]

And how would you ever establish that 2 players have equal skill/ability ?

You can't.

By whether I win, obviously.

The Python has more and bigger guns, it has more modules and hard points. It has more power. It has better shields that last long enough for the 5 second shield cell change not to be the big problem it is for the Viper (if it manages to power them). Flight Assist Off has not been disabled. Gimballed weapons remain. Power turns remain. If A Python pilot cannot find a loadout/tactical combo to use all these advantages to combat the one advantage the Viper has then by definition that Python pilot is not the 'best' pilot in the duel.

The moment FD turns into 'biggest ship wins' is the moment they might as well remove the PvP element.

Besides - this is not a PvP game. The many thousands playing in Open and non-pvp groups want to have the fun of becoming skilled enough to take their dedicated combat Vipers up against bigger ships and that should not be taken away.

I don't fly a Viper much, I fly bigger ships but having to fear and respect them is very much a part of my enjoyment.

I simply don't care about whether ships are 'unbalanced' for PvP. It's largely an unprovable concept given all the variables from pilot age, experience through to whether they are using a HOTAS and IR anyway. In my experience once you start trying to balance everything around one small game element you're doomed.

People don't like their classes changing every two months or their skills and muscle memory over-written. That's one of the many things that went wrong with Elder Scrolls Online.

'Ooh, ooh - Sorcs are over-powered. Nerf them. Nightblade ambush skills aren't fair. Nerf them'. Most people didn't care but on and on and on it went. They didn't play PvP (if only because the engine was so crap it couldn't handle it). All they knew was they had to respec their character repeatedly when they were perfectly happy with things as they were for reasons that had nothing to do with them.

It's impossible to balance everything. The bigger ships like the Python and Anaconda etc in ED have huge advantages and if a pilot cannot leverage those into putting up a good fight against smaller ships then that's down to the pilot. I guarantee you that despite the New Python being only hours old the pilots who are really good, rather than the pilots who imagine they are better than they are, have already figured out how to play to the strengths and against the Viper's many weaknesses and are rolling their eyes at this thread.

 

[Defacto]

whilst ALWAYS is a step to far, it would not make the viper obsolete, it would just mean a viper you need a wingman

or a Python
Do you really think that anyone would reason ''heck no why do I need a Python, despite it being universally better, when I can just get friends and together we can fight at similar strength as if I was alone''.

 

[Flappers]

Rock - Nerf Paper, it's OP
Scissors - Nerf Rock, it's OP
Paper - Nerf Scissors, it's OP

You'll never find 2 pilots of equal skill. Unless you play yourself.
Skill is a digital fingerprint. Reaction times, strategy, thought processes, no 2 people will think the same when it comes to space combat.

 

[Stein]

A last statement on ship classes: Think of the Python as a B52. The Viper is a MiG-21. The MiG-21 would always win.

This statement has a flaw in it though. A B52 is meant to take out ground targets. Of which there are none in ED, all combat is ship vs ship.
From a game design perspective it doesn't make that much sense that one of the cheapest and earliest available ships should also be the best fighter.

 

[Defacto]

This statement has a flaw in it though. A B52 is meant to take out ground targets. Of which there are none in ED, all combat is ship vs ship.
From a game design perspective it doesn't make that much sense that one of the cheapest and earliest available ships should also be the best fighter.

I think it makes perfect sense because the Python isn't a fighter. The Viper is.
Does a Python need to kill the Viper to ''win''? Does the Viper have to kill the Python to ''win''?
We will get larger combat-focused ships in the future, but I hope they can't compete with the Viper in speed and agility. These combat ships should have other qualities.

 

[stumagoo]

not saying the python should wipe the floor with a viper like it did pre nerf.... (although what I hear the nerf may have been a bit to heavy) I remember a lot of viper/non python pilots calling the python an I win button. and that it was unfair. now I hear the argument effectively reversed and all the pro viper pilots are saying that its all good, and the viper should be the king of combat. personally I agree it should take more than one viper to break through the shields and hull of anything that is a clipper or larger-more expensive. but that should be it the armour and shielding should be strong the handling should be weak and the weapons of a larger ship should decimate a viper. it should be all but a suicide run for a viper to go up against a large ship but not because of the large ships handling rather the fact the viper is a fire ant attacking a rhino. enough fire ants the rhino has too much targets for its big guns or turrets to contend with and they can then whittle down its defense. if they want to go one on one they loose the viper and get a bigger ship.

1 small ship can not reliably be used to destroy a big ship.

 

[bassman]

No. While it could be a piloting problem sometimes, in the vast majority of cases its a balancing problem. Don't assume that everybody is a bad pilot.

Well since the python has over twice both the offensive and defensive capability its hard to draw any other conclusion TBH. When you translate that to time-on-target to get shields down its even more clear cut - with twice the DPS vs half the shield strength, the python will take down the viper shields at 4 x the rate with the additional benefit that the python pilot has a much larger time window to use a shield cell with its 5 sec powerup time.

 

[Stein]

I think it makes perfect sense because the Python isn't a fighter. The Viper is.

This is just semantics, but all right. There are 15 different ships so far in ED. Which of these, besides the Viper, are in your opinion fighters? I'm guessing none. There is a pretty clear progression ladder in trade vessels, and from a game designers POV there should be the same for fighters.

 

[xslam]

It should take a VERY skilled viper pilot to fight up 3-4 weight classes and win, right now though any ship bigger than a viper is at a disadvantage in maneuverability, and if your not more maneuverable you cant bring weapons to bare.

I wonder how you can beat me with viper
How about prove your words about balance?

 

[Unfluffydave]

I think whatever ship I'm flying at the time should be buffed and an auto-nerf applied to any ship in my instance, because I'm The Best Of The Best and if I don't win every time it Isn't Fair.

How to sum up every pvp buff/nerf thread:

I am Rock, Rock needs buffing, Scissors is fine and needs to learn to play and Paper is OP and needs nerfing.