'Attack of the AI' III

[Mohrgan]

I still think that "to some" is much closer to the truth than to pretend your personal experience is true for all. Meanwhile I start to wonder if you're actually playing the game or just hiding behind your oven while making up your mind from selected forum posts?

What? I have made no claims on my experiences in game. I only suggest that there is room for the quiet miner, and the fighter pilots in elite. I made no claims about anything other than how accepting this community could be.

I don't care what you "start to wonder". That kind of nonsense is simply an attempt to dismiss a point of view through insulting assumptions. I've had my mind changed. Through reading what people have to say, putting myself in their shoes, I can see a way where everyone can be satisfied. Prove me wrong.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

So they set the AI back what it was and I have to fly my hauler into a CZ or RES on the way to my destination to get some semblance of danger and excitement??? Er, no. How about you ask FD to improve the UI to help you keep to high-security systems, stop pirates going after empty/low value haulers, reduce spawns in high sec or improve the police response times.

You can haul food cartridges from planet to orbit or whatever, I'll ship high value minerals out of mining colonies or run guns to war-zones and all the well paying high risk stuff. It's you who is having the problem, it is you who should be having your game area constrained, not me.

Once again some crazy assumptions. I'm not looking for a safe zone, but I'm willing to accept that others may like one. There is room for everyone.

P.S. That hauler won't get you far in a CZ.

 

[Red Anders]

To satisfy everyone that plays ED I would suggest that there is only one solution. The Galaxy in Elite Dangerous is big, it's very big, enormous in fact, plenty of room for everyone, wouldn't it be easier for FD to fence off part of this Galaxy, turn it into a clearly marked Forbidden Zone within which are still high trading missions, and all the other stuff that the normal ED has, but in the forbidden zone, there are the real badass NPC's, and this would be where all high calibre combat pilots could go to get their adrenalin fix, in the rest of the Galaxy there are the easier NPC's who are a bit of a challenge to normal mediocre players who just want to trade, mine, or explore (as long as they don't go into the Forbidden Zone). Is this not possible? If enough players request it then I'm sure FD would be happy to accomodate, if only to stop the constant complaints on these forums, they must be really worried that they are losing customers because of this problem. I think this would be a good solution, are am I talking nonesense?

Sadly, yes.

 

[frostypaw]

I want to do my part to prod Frontier into making the game fun for everyone, not just the self-proclaimed "gud" players. If that means reducing the difficulty to the lowest possible threshold, then yes, yes I do. What I find offensive in the thread is the notion that some players are just deemed to be unfit by their so-called betters, and these same betters would just as soon their unfit brethren took a hike.

It most certainly does not require that though - and rather than learning new skills or paying attention to their surroundings this is what many are asking for.

As before - it would be utterly farcical to ask for Crysis to be doable without crouching or learning to use cover. That is the level of equivalence here to not knowing how to fly your ship or pay attention to the routes you take.

I object strongly to ANYONE who proclaims people as "unfit" - but there are some who clearly do want a different game without any hazard - this game was never ever ever sold that way, it has never promised that and it's not been a thing in any previous incarnation - and I fear their input rather clouds some of the discussion

 

[stooger]

I bought a Sidewinder today and went to farseer for enchanced thrusters (~350m/s with 4 pips to engines and ~490 boost). Gone for some BH in res site and oooh boy it can stick to anything (eagles aren't a problem, they just can't shake me in my side'y... at least at my miserable combat rank - master). BUT I have seen some weird AI behavior when sitting on their arses. Sometimes (I bet it depends on npc rank, not everyone is doing that) when they can't shake me, they are just doing infinite corckscrew. It didn't happen before when I was bounty hunting in larger and less manuverable ship but when I'm sticking to them in my sidewinder they get confused or something. Corkscrewing to the death. I just need to hold my joystick to mimic their flight path and fire button to kill them. Never seen that before today.

Some time earlier I met deadly FDL (in cobra... mkIV lol) and had to abort the fight because he (npc) was just... mocking me. Every time I got close he just shot at me few times with (iirc) PA and boost out to gain some distance (turreting my face in the process... but nothing serious). I was gaining on him very slow but then I needed the pips for the weapons so he run off again before I could do any noticable damage. I almost heard him laughing at me ;D He just waited for me to get closer, shot me and run away again. I love the fact that me and my ship was just completly ineffective in this situation. I will remember this and pick my ship more carefully (yeah I know, no cobra mk4 lol).

 

[Mr T]

Surely not. My highest rank is Elite explorer. If this theory would be true the hell would brake upon me.

Interesting. So out of curiosity, what ranked NPCs do you get interdicting you? (or have they not bothered you yet?)

 

[ShimEnki]

To satisfy everyone that plays ED I would suggest that there is only one solution. The Galaxy in Elite Dangerous is big, it's very big, enormous in fact, plenty of room for everyone, wouldn't it be easier for FD to fence off part of this Galaxy, turn it into a clearly marked Forbidden Zone within which are still high trading missions, and all the other stuff that the normal ED has, but in the forbidden zone, there are the real badass NPC's, and this would be where all high calibre combat pilots could go to get their adrenalin fix, in the rest of the Galaxy there are the easier NPC's who are a bit of a challenge to normal mediocre players who just want to trade, mine, or explore (as long as they don't go into the Forbidden Zone). Is this not possible? If enough players request it then I'm sure FD would be happy to accomodate, if only to stop the constant complaints on these forums, they must be really worried that they are losing customers because of this problem. I think this would be a good solution, are am I talking nonesense?

Super Idea along with another that a CMDR brought up that involves individual intensity sliders.

 

[Mohrgan]

Pretty much what I do. Reading what other people say and trying to match it up with my own experiences. So where are your experiences?

How would I describe my experience in the game? I am a combat focused player who makes a living separating Pirates from their ships (see my signature). I also enjoy playing the BGS. I run missions for my favored faction, when I am not making the skies free from pirates. I don't use the near exploits that appear in the game, so I am not filthy rich. I have an FdL, Python, a Cobra MkIII, and enough credits for a healthy number of rebuys. what more can I say?

In the end, my experiences don't have to be justified. My current view on the matter stands. We can have room for the non-combatant, and combatant alike. Let the individual player control the risk v. reward balance for themselves. It's not hard to understand.

 

[Faded Glory]

[snip]
In the end, my experiences don't have to be justified. My current view on the matter stands. We can have room for the non-combatant, and combatant alike. Let the individual player control the risk v. reward balance for themselves. It's not hard to understand.

Really can't agree more.

The framework is already (kind of) in place in game with mission rankings and system security to let the player decide what to do, where to go, the trouble seems to be however that FD haven't made it clear enough what is low risk and what is high risk (I guess what I'm saying there is that mission descriptions and the galaxy map could use a bit of love and detail).

Then all they need to do (IMO) is to find out why some players are getting combat against high ranking NPCs forced upon them for no apparent reason (no missions, high security system interdictions), and tone that down. Not been happening to me TBH, every interdiction I have had has been expected and of a reasonable rank based upon what I was doing.

 

[Mr T]

Not enough to see a clear pattern, so far they were slightly above my combat rank (expert).

Ok, so that throws that maximum rank theory out the window. It could just be based on the combat rank, however, it might get rounded up in some cases if the progression is above 50% (from memory I think I'm around 80% novice). The other theory could be that it's an average of all your ranks.

 

[Mohrgan]

We even have no dissent here. All I've said was that "we" already have this functionality, at least from my point of view, my personal experience. I'm a lousy combat pilot but I can survive. It was mainly a statement for those who think the game would be exclusively for the combat aces now. I'm the one who can prove them wrong.

*"we" in quotation marks cause I still have some doubts that the game is actually the same and consistent to all of us, or I (or we) don't yet understand the coherences.

For as many with the opinion that things are fine, there are those who are struggling. I am open to adjustingthe current environment to welcome all types of players. One player's anecdotal experience doesn't negate another's. FD has to find a balance for the entire spectrum, I'm simply acknowledging that, and suggesting a way to offer the same choice in whom we play along side. as for what risks we assume in game.

 

[frostypaw]

In the end, my experiences don't have to be justified. My current view on the matter stands. We can have room for the non-combatant, and combatant alike. Let the individual player control the risk v. reward balance for themselves. It's not hard to understand.

What about when the person who wants to avoid all combat and just sight see goes to the pretty nebula where the massive battle is taking place?

They come on here and want a difficulty slider...

Then what happens when they win the battle? does the war just finish for everyone in hard mode?

We can all share the galaxy - it IS meant to be wired the way you say - but some people don't want to care. They want to cross anarchy space, mine in that pristine ring, take back 300tonnes of painite in a cardboard box and stop to sightsee along the way - how can we all share the same galaxy if people won't play along with the galaxy?

 

[sutex]

Given my combat experience are low, what Ive noticed , while mining , is the short amount of time , you have to escape, once those NPC with their new weapons start firing at you.

Twice now just managed to get my Cobra MkIV out of trouble , last time the hull was down to 2% all other modules around the same, still the Cobra MkIV got me 'home' broken canopy running out of air .. was close [where is it]

I watch the radar, too try and see the baddies coming but too no avail NPC ,are just upon me, firing

 

[Mohrgan]

What about when the person who wants to avoid all combat and just sight see goes to the pretty nebula where the massive battle is taking place?

They come on here and want a difficulty slider...

Then what happens when they win the battle? does the war just finish for everyone in hard mode?

We can all share the galaxy - it IS meant to be wired the way you say - but some people don't want to care. They want to cross anarchy space, mine in that pristine ring, take back 300tonnes of painite in a cardboard box and stop to sightsee along the way - how can we all share the same galaxy if people won't play along with the galaxy?

Outlandish edge cases don't move me. If, and I believe it intends to be, the galaxy is meant to be wired as I say, it is not working for a great many players, just look around. I feel that room should be made for as many players as possible, and that includes those that would avoid combat, just as I avoid trading.

 

[frostypaw]

Outlandish edge cases don't move me. If, and I believe it intends to be, the galaxy is meant to be wired as I say, it is not working for a great many players, just look around. I feel that room should be made for as many players as possible, and that includes those that would avoid combat, just as I avoid trading.

I see a number of players who post lots - I'm hesitant to call them a great number.

That room is made - but you need an answer to the edge cases if people won't obey the galaxy's rules - that's the tough bit about making rules and claiming things are possible you have to account for the edge cases not just the easy answers

 

[WR3ND]

I think if you cater to all walks of people, you can "dumb down" the end product. It isn't a real challenge to any degree if everything is safe unless I go looking for trouble. It's a bit of an immersion breaker for me and takes away some of the reason to play and advance in the game. Why get bigger weapons and better shields if you don't need them, et cetera?

 

[Mohenjo]

Let me construct an analogy.

Suppose you're a hockey player (I'm Canadian, EVERYONE is a hockey player, you can choose whatever sport works for you). You decide you want to play in a league, so you join a local pickup league. You enjoy the games. Usually, you find you can win reliably. Occasionally, you'll find teams you absolutely dominate, and often you'll find yourself challenged, but never overwhelmed. After a while, the league decides to reorganize the division, and they stick you in a league with NHL players who are slumming. From that point, you get utterly slaughtered at every turn. There's no chance of victory, precious little chance of even getting to participate in any meaningful way. Every game is a chore, disheartening, frustrating. It ceases to be fun.

So, you complain to the league and are told to suck it up, adapt and so forth. To "Get Good" (I refuse to spell badly, I speak ENGLISH). So you go out and do what you can and get utterly slaughtered over and over and over and over. You're not having fun. Playing is frustrating and disheartening, so you complain some more and are told all the other NHL player teams are having no trouble at all. Those Penguins, they can take on every team without breaking a sweat, so you can too, you just need to play better.

So you try again and get slaughtered over and over and over. You're not learning anything because you never get to touch the puck, let alone try to make a play. Maybe if you had better skates? But no, the NHL guys are stronger, faster, younger, etc. so you really can't do anything.

So, you can't compete with the opposition, you're not having fun. What do you do? Do you tell your friends to come experience the frustration? You REALLY want to play, but you simply can't match the opposition, so what choice do you have? Get better? They are all VASTLY stronger, faster, etc., so how long do you have to suffer something that's not fun, that's frustrating and disheartening before you get to start being competitive? Is it even POSSIBLE? Not everyone has the same level of talent, so you might not EVER be able to compete.

What would you do? You would quit. You can't play, you can't adapt and you can't force the league to give you more appropriate opposition, so what other choice is there? And you would be angry when the league condescends to you, telling you how other teams can play just fine, calling you a whiner and whatnot.

That's the position so many of us are in now. We want to play, but we CANNOT.
It's unacceptable. I spent a lot of money (for me) buying this game and Horizons. The game I paid for has been taken away from me, almost entirely. Adding insult to injury, I get people telling me that I'm at fault, that I just need to get better, that I'm a whiner and that having the game unplayable for me is somehow better than being less playable for them.

I'm angry that the game has been taken away. I'm angry at being condescended to and insulted. I've had QUITE enough of all of it.

My opinion has been recorded both in the poll and in the various discussions. Thus, lest my growing anger, frustration and even grief cause me to say something I should not, I make my exit. I will continue to watch for news of this situation's improvement, but until I can actually play the game again...

this is Mojo, signing off.

 

[frostypaw]

Suppose you're a hockey player (I'm Canadian, EVERYONE is a hockey player, you can choose whatever sport works for you). You decide you want to play in a league, so you join a local pickup league. You enjoy the games. Usually, you find you can win reliably. Occasionally, you'll find teams you absolutely dominate, and often you'll find yourself challenged, but never overwhelmed. After a while, the league decides to reorganize the division, and they stick you in a league with NHL players who are slumming. From that point, you get utterly slaughtered at every turn. There's no chance of victory, precious little chance of even getting to participate in any meaningful way. Every game is a chore, disheartening, frustrating. It ceases to be fun.
...
this is Mojo, signing off.

It's really sad that you've ended up feeling that way - but did it not feel odd that out of all of the bubble's pilots you were top dog? People have tried to offer help and reasons why you may have ended up in a situation where you are in constant threat but if the help is taken as insult and condescension then I don't know where to go from there.

Have you considered writing to support and asking to have your combat rank reset and yourself transported to a safe area just so you can get your feet again? They won't want you feeling like this, no one decent does.

 

[n4p0l3on]

Let me construct an analogy.

Suppose you're a hockey player (I'm Canadian, EVERYONE is a hockey player, you can choose whatever sport works for you). You decide you want to play in a league, so you join a local pickup league. You enjoy the games. Usually, you find you can win reliably. Occasionally, you'll find teams you absolutely dominate, and often you'll find yourself challenged, but never overwhelmed. After a while, the league decides to reorganize the division, and they stick you in a league with NHL players who are slumming. From that point, you get utterly slaughtered at every turn. There's no chance of victory, precious little chance of even getting to participate in any meaningful way. Every game is a chore, disheartening, frustrating. It ceases to be fun.

So, you complain to the league and are told to suck it up, adapt and so forth. To "Get Good" (I refuse to spell badly, I speak ENGLISH). So you go out and do what you can and get utterly slaughtered over and over and over and over. You're not having fun. Playing is frustrating and disheartening, so you complain some more and are told all the other NHL player teams are having no trouble at all. Those Penguins, they can take on every team without breaking a sweat, so you can too, you just need to play better.

So you try again and get slaughtered over and over and over. You're not learning anything because you never get to touch the puck, let alone try to make a play. Maybe if you had better skates? But no, the NHL guys are stronger, faster, younger, etc. so you really can't do anything.

So, you can't compete with the opposition, you're not having fun. What do you do? Do you tell your friends to come experience the frustration? You REALLY want to play, but you simply can't match the opposition, so what choice do you have? Get better? They are all VASTLY stronger, faster, etc., so how long do you have to suffer something that's not fun, that's frustrating and disheartening before you get to start being competitive? Is it even POSSIBLE? Not everyone has the same level of talent, so you might not EVER be able to compete.

What would you do? You would quit. You can't play, you can't adapt and you can't force the league to give you more appropriate opposition, so what other choice is there? And you would be angry when the league condescends to you, telling you how other teams can play just fine, calling you a whiner and whatnot.

That's the position so many of us are in now. We want to play, but we CANNOT.
It's unacceptable. I spent a lot of money (for me) buying this game and Horizons. The game I paid for has been taken away from me, almost entirely. Adding insult to injury, I get people telling me that I'm at fault, that I just need to get better, that I'm a whiner and that having the game unplayable for me is somehow better than being less playable for them.

I'm angry that the game has been taken away. I'm angry at being condescended to and insulted. I've had QUITE enough of all of it.

My opinion has been recorded both in the poll and in the various discussions. Thus, lest my growing anger, frustration and even grief cause me to say something I should not, I make my exit. I will continue to watch for news of this situation's improvement, but until I can actually play the game again...

this is Mojo, signing off.

In your own analogy it was very obvious that the NHL and whatever sport league we could imagine here would never ever dumbed down their leagues to cater to you.

 

[Tikigod]

So... just traded in my Viper MK 4 for a Vulture that I haven't flown in many months.

Wish I could change my vote in this poll now, <bleep> me when you're in a agile ship does the AI become a sodding joke that you can walk all over regardless to rating, ship or even 2 hostiles at once.

If one thing this has raised for me, it's that there's a serious balance problem somewhere if a Viper MK 4 feels 'just right' for equal sized ships with some problems with the real agile fighters, whilst a Vulture can just take on the entire universe laughing.


The whole interdiction activity and bugged NPCs turning up randomly is still annoying.... but then that's absolutely nothing what so ever to do with AI. That's Frontier taking the improvements they made to the spawning/event handling system and throwing it away to undo all the improvements in one single move to bring back to us problems with omnipresent NPC that will spawn into any instance you enter until you give in and deal with them because something insists that they have to be forcibly rammed down your throat to make sure you acknowledge and directly feel how dynamic the game is totally being, and over zealous triggers for spawning hostiles that cause stacks to establish if you don't kill each occurrence.

But that's all stuff we used to have a year or so ago, that's nothing new. Just someone at Frontier adding back the bad decisions they'd already removed as part of conceding it wasn't making the game fun nor interesting at the time.... well surprisingly enough it still doesn't make the game fun or interesting adding such things back in now.

 

[GP40X]

Let me construct an analogy.

Suppose you're a hockey player (I'm Canadian, EVERYONE is a hockey player, you can choose whatever sport works for you). You decide you want to play in a league, so you join a local pickup league. You enjoy the games. Usually, you find you can win reliably. Occasionally, you'll find teams you absolutely dominate, and often you'll find yourself challenged, but never overwhelmed. After a while, the league decides to reorganize the division, and they stick you in a league with NHL players who are slumming. From that point, you get utterly slaughtered at every turn. There's no chance of victory, precious little chance of even getting to participate in any meaningful way. Every game is a chore, disheartening, frustrating. It ceases to be fun.

So, you complain to the league and are told to suck it up, adapt and so forth. To "Get Good" (I refuse to spell badly, I speak ENGLISH). So you go out and do what you can and get utterly slaughtered over and over and over and over. You're not having fun. Playing is frustrating and disheartening, so you complain some more and are told all the other NHL player teams are having no trouble at all. Those Penguins, they can take on every team without breaking a sweat, so you can too, you just need to play better.

So you try again and get slaughtered over and over and over. You're not learning anything because you never get to touch the puck, let alone try to make a play. Maybe if you had better skates? But no, the NHL guys are stronger, faster, younger, etc. so you really can't do anything.

So, you can't compete with the opposition, you're not having fun. What do you do? Do you tell your friends to come experience the frustration? You REALLY want to play, but you simply can't match the opposition, so what choice do you have? Get better? They are all VASTLY stronger, faster, etc., so how long do you have to suffer something that's not fun, that's frustrating and disheartening before you get to start being competitive? Is it even POSSIBLE? Not everyone has the same level of talent, so you might not EVER be able to compete.

What would you do? You would quit. You can't play, you can't adapt and you can't force the league to give you more appropriate opposition, so what other choice is there? And you would be angry when the league condescends to you, telling you how other teams can play just fine, calling you a whiner and whatnot.

That's the position so many of us are in now. We want to play, but we CANNOT.
It's unacceptable. I spent a lot of money (for me) buying this game and Horizons. The game I paid for has been taken away from me, almost entirely. Adding insult to injury, I get people telling me that I'm at fault, that I just need to get better, that I'm a whiner and that having the game unplayable for me is somehow better than being less playable for them.

I'm angry that the game has been taken away. I'm angry at being condescended to and insulted. I've had QUITE enough of all of it.

My opinion has been recorded both in the poll and in the various discussions. Thus, lest my growing anger, frustration and even grief cause me to say something I should not, I make my exit. I will continue to watch for news of this situation's improvement, but until I can actually play the game again...

this is Mojo, signing off.

+1. I think there will be a lot more people leaving the game than new players coming in. I have a NOVICE combat rating and enjoy trading and exploring much more than combat ( have a Broker trading rating and a Pathfinder explorer rating). I was jumped by a ship that I think was an Asp and it chewed up my A rated Python in about 30 seconds AFTER the 2.1.2 update. While I don't have Horizions yet, I UPGRADED MY VIDEO CARD to play this game. So I will also bid adieu and just lurk for a while. The Get Good/adapt or leave crowd is saying don't nerf the game. Unfortunately for a lot of players, FDEV did just that with the 2.1.1 & 2.1.2 updates. So until I can play without a 7 million credit insurance claim every time I get interdicted, looks like I will be looking for another space sim. And it is a real shame because I used to love to play this game.