'Attack of the AI' III

[CMDR_Vyse]

So because I have spent time playing games, I am unable to comment? This is remarkable since quite a few long time players (who are complaining about AI difficulty) are apparently free to do so?

So not a "profoundly bad example" then. Stick to the topic, hey.

I'm talking about myself, I made a typo. I've put thousands of hours into those games. I know Skyrim nearly back and front. Minecraft too, but mods make Minecraft something endlessly enjoyable to play.

The default behaviour in minecraft is that mobs spawn; including 'bad' mobs at night. That that can be overridden is contextually relevant to the game, and also that the person who first starts playing, is even aware that they can. Given the entire argument is that noobs apparently don't know jack about ED, you can't claim they are somehow sentient enough to manage game settings, but not sentient enough to handle some risk.

There's a bit of a logic hurdle there. Also i'm happy for new starters to speak for themselves; i'm not a new starter, why the heck would I presume I can speak on their behalf? .. (and yet so many do).

Elite: Dangerous does a poor job of laying out which systems have security and which do not. And the simple fact is that there aren't any difficulty settings, because there can't be in a multiplayer game because the clients are all the same. But in other MMOs, challenge is found when you want to find it, even if it free roams an area.

snip

Considering that exploring offers no real reward other than seeing your name get put on a star system yet discovered, yes. There shouldn't be any significant risk associated with it when returning to the bubble. There's risk enough in jumping into hazardous systems or ending up in brown dwarf or neutron star fields. Hell, just jumping into Sag A* is dangerous.

As far as alien life goes, let me put it to you this way: does it make much sense for aliens to somehow be all over the bubble all at once? No, no it doesn't. That's not how invasions work. If things have progressed to that point, then the war is over and there's no point in continuing in a cliched dystopia. I'm perfectly fine with seeing the bulk of alien life in invasion combat zones on the fringe, with maybe an agent or two in the core doing their best to keep a low profile. What you seem to imply is the aliens already winning the war.

I am absolutely in full support of AI that are more contextually relevant. Absolutely. But not just stupid space potato that never appear because that's easier. The fact that Frontier have rolled back so many changes already, I am sure has not be lost on those determined to extinguish all risk.

As a fan of Undertale, you mentioning being "determined" just makes me giggle. This discussion fills me with determination.

 

[yodajedifishmaster]

We will see. I bet a dollar to a dime, that they will be approx. at the same difficulty scale as normal NPCs. Either this or they will be isolated in special instances similar to combat zones.
After all, FD needs players and paying customers. It is just bussiness as usuall.

yes remember they interdicted the player in witch space, but the gal navy was fighting them in interstellar space not system space apparently. lot of empty space out there for MASSIVE instances. imagine an empty space with no nearby bodies except the odd capital ship wreck, debris from destroyed fighters and player ships and thargoid ships and drones. alliance and fed and imperial capital ships co-operating and engaging huge thargoid carriers and cruisers no seen since the previous war! gigantic cambat zones where if you are in the auxiliary navies you got called up to do a tour in - er actually im a chief petty officer rank so um... oh well. looks like anyone who signed up for a rank to buy a ship type will be conscripted when the war comes.

 

[Sunleader]

I do wonder what will happen when alien races are added. I do hope they are immobile like barnacles. Because if they can fly a ship hoooo boy are people going to lose their minds.

The echo chamber is becoming seriously loud.

If Strong NPCs would be limited to Missions and Combat Zones nobody would have a problem with it.
If Aliens come around they can simply attack from a certain side. Meaning people can simply go somewhere else if its too hard.

But current situation is the death of anything but combat players cause you find the super npcs everywhere.

 

[kofeyh]

If Strong NPCs would be limited to Missions and Combat Zones nobody would have a problem with it.
If Aliens come around they can simply attack from a certain side. Meaning people can simply go somewhere else if its too hard.

But current situation is the death of anything but combat players cause you find the super npcs everywhere.

Which super NPCs are these, then? Frontier has removed virtually all modifications from AI and stripped large numbers of high ranking NPCs out of systems.

The thing is, if frontier wanted to make AI only attack on Sunday's, inside a small sector three thousand light years from civilised space? They would do that. They haven't. AI are supposed to be a bit of a challenge - but not impossible (hence why they have removed mods and massively reduced high ranks from SC).

Imagine if Solo had virtually no AI. How does that work? What if open was basically just 100% commanders. Would that improve it? Why is it AI should only be able to defend themselves in specific zones, when commanders can shoot them wherever the commander pleases?

The AI has always been a part of civilised space (the bubble). And yet it's only when they fight back a bit, do people suddenly decide they shouldn't be there. I don't actually think it's the AI that's the problem at this point.

 

[frostypaw]

yes remember they interdicted the player in witch space, but the gal navy was fighting them in interstellar space not system space apparently. lot of empty space out there for MASSIVE instances. imagine an empty space with no nearby bodies except the odd capital ship wreck, debris from destroyed fighters and player ships and thargoid ships and drones. alliance and fed and imperial capital ships co-operating and engaging huge thargoid carriers and cruisers no seen since the previous war! gigantic cambat zones where if you are in the auxiliary navies you got called up to do a tour in - er actually im a chief petty officer rank so um... oh well. looks like anyone who signed up for a rank to buy a ship type will be conscripted when the war comes.

you almost sound like you're enjoying the thought - careful now!

 

[TaoRaven]

But current situation is the death of anything but combat players cause you find the super npcs everywhere.

And many combat pilots are leaving combat for smuggling in the fastest ships we can build because the repair and rebuy bills are more than combat is worth.

 

[Noddie]

Rather than neutering it, FD ought to have explained it..

 

[kofeyh]

Rather than neutering it, FD ought to have explained it..

Ever tried to explain anything to angry people who aren't interested in listening?

 

[yodajedifishmaster]

you almost sound like you're enjoying the thought - careful now!

ah yes but the navy will put my ship in storage and make me fly military ship. with stuff we dont have access to as civilians. and no rebuy. i expect them to get a bit annoyed if you dont manage to kill some thargoids between destructions though. maybe they will give me a REAL Asp mk ii or whatever the current military equivalent is to fly....

 

[Noddie]

Ever tried to explain anything to angry people who aren't interested in listening?

Which is why they should have communicated it ahead of release.

Unfortunately the AI changes got missed in all the fuss about the engineers.

 

[kofeyh]

Which is why they should have communicated it ahead of release.

Unfortunately the AI changes got missed in all the fuss about the engineers.

Frontier has been saying that AI are going to be more compentent since game launch. That people assumed that space potatoes would be potatoes forever is unfortunate, but frontier has not been silent on the matter. We knew this was coming. It was made clear it was coming.

The issue isn't the AI. It's perception of what they should be, veruses what was always intended to be.

 

[James Razor]

Frontier has been saying that AI are going to be more compentent since game launch. That people assumed that space potatoes would be potatoes forever is unfortunate, but frontier has not been silent on the matter. We knew this was coming. It was made clear it was coming.

The issue isn't the AI. It's perception of what they should be, veruses what was always intended to be.

The problem is that they overbuffed it. Also, it is a combination of issues here. NPC behaviour in general is lacking and buffing the combat AI did just manage to make something annoying into something game breaking, Not to mention that the AI is still and rams u all the time because of those close flybys they attempt.
The AI in its current form is broken. I dont have a problem with more challange, but atm it is just . This definatly needs another balancing pass. Together with a ship balancing pass. Big ships definatly are not working as intended at the moment.

 

[Riverside]

Frontier has been saying that AI are going to be more compentent since game launch. That people assumed that space potatoes would be potatoes forever is unfortunate, but frontier has not been silent on the matter. We knew this was coming. It was made clear it was coming.

The issue isn't the AI. It's perception of what they should be, veruses what was always intended to be.

IIRC it was going to get better, not stronger. This isn't better. Stuff like the chaffing described above is better. AI where it takes a top pilot 15 minutes to kill an iEagle (his 'first kill', btw) is just demoralising.

 

[frostypaw]

AI where it takes a top pilot 15 minutes to kill an iEagle (his 'first kill', btw) is just demoralising.

Qué? Sorry run that by me again I've missed something

 

[TaoRaven]

I would hesitate to even call this "AI". They fly straight at you, collide with you if you don't evade, and then completely defy the game's flight model to stick to your six at point blank range.
This isn't "AI". The old Wing Commander and X-Wing / TIE Fighter had better AI than this and that was two decades ago.

This is just irritating and stupid. It's not challenging, it's annoying.

And I don't care what they claim, some of the AI are still using bugged weapons.

Combat is pointless, annoying and not even sort of fun now.

 

[kofeyh]

IIRC it was going to get better, not stronger. This isn't better. Stuff like the chaffing described above is better. AI where it takes a top pilot 15 minutes to kill an iEagle (his 'first kill', btw) is just demoralising.

Huh? I am, err, unsure, what you mean by "top pilot". 15 minutes to kill an iEagle? Either you are being overly dramatic, or something rather odd is going on.

Are you referring to isinona taking on an iEagle with an eagle in flight assist off using fixed weapons and already suffering hull damage, boosting like a maniac? having only just starting from scratch again?

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I would hesitate to even call this "AI". They fly straight at you, collide with you if you don't evade, and then completely defy the game's flight model to stick to your six at point blank range.
This isn't "AI". The old Wing Commander and X-Wing / TIE Fighter had better AI than this and that was two decades ago.

This is just irritating and stupid. It's not challenging, it's annoying.

And I don't care what they claim, some of the AI are still using bugged weapons.

Combat is pointless, annoying and not even sort of fun now.

Which bugged weapons?

 

[Mohrgan]

Huh? I am, err, unsure, what you mean by "top pilot". 15 minutes to kill an iEagle? Either you are being overly dramatic, or something rather odd is going on.

He's talking about Isonia's (spelling?) return video. Isonia cleared his save, and started again. In the video he gears up an Eagle and goes BH in a HazRES. He has a prolonged battle with a Deadly (iirc) iEagle. It took a while because of a long list of conditions. The AI is better, he had to work for it. In the end he didn't seem upset by it at all. I can't why anyone else would be either.

 

[Codger]

In conclusion, I don't want to see the "challenging" AI taken away from players who love it. I'd just like to see it moved (at least 90%) to where the challenge is where you expect it. This way, the players who aren't so good at combat, are getting creamed and losing money while trying to play the game their way.

Great post, almost exactly matches my experience. Repped.

 

[kofeyh]

He's talking about Isonia's (spelling?) return video. Isonia cleared his save, and started again. In the video he gears up an Eagle and goes BH in a HazRES. He has a prolonged battle with a Deadly (iirc) iEagle. It took a while because of a long list of conditions. The AI is better, he had to work for it. In the end he didn't seem upset by it at all. I can't why anyone else would be either.

Yes, I concluded this was the case.

 

[Ziljan]

Frontier has been saying that AI are going to be more compentent since game launch. That people assumed that space potatoes would be potatoes forever is unfortunate, but frontier has not been silent on the matter. We knew this was coming. It was made clear it was coming.

The issue isn't the AI. It's perception of what they should be, veruses what was always intended to be.

I think you're right. It's a perception problem. People still think they can use highly inefficient 2.0 builds and guns blazing tactics in every situation. They still think they can take on whole wings without using tactics because they're in an "A rated" Python/Anaconda, and that small ships should stay put and explode when they look at them.

Gonna take some time for people to adjust. To realize that profit isn't just a participation award. If they want to make more money than they lose, they need to adapt and stop making unwise choices. Learn good low-skill durable builds. Relearn the strengths and weaknesses of each ship. Learn escape tactics.

They don't have to become "Ace Pilots", they just have step up their game a little.