Sure.
Avoiding Group Control...
- Thread starter JeffRyan
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Heheh. Misunderstanding mate. This is my thread I was answering some points raised in general over the forums...
Stop them play there game, no ... wouldn't want to do that, many of them are looking forward to and enjoying the game (as it should be). Stop them doing what they "think" they do best, the sociopathy that goes along with their "thing"? Well, there are mechanics that can be/are being put in place which dampen their kind of game wrecking abuse to a ultra low background noise.
Personally, I don't want to have to "put up with them", I and others here don't want them (or anyone else for that matter) to have the ability to tear the game apart from within. This is down to FD to manage ultimately. I and others here have confidence that FD will continue to implement mechanisms to deal with such negative impacts on their game.
Of course EVE players are welcome. Guilds in general I have a problem with.
Judging by these threads I can only assume that:
1) Goons/guilds/cheaters/griefers are coming, everybody run, EVERYBODY HIDE!!!!11111
2) FD is making fatal mistake here because x/y/z/w/omega/I told you so;
3) Everyone will melt everyone else faces;
4) "Mom, if those angry boys don't behave, I will play alone"
5) Lot of people have countless hours to burn on this rather pointless issue;
1) Goons/guilds/cheaters/griefers are coming, everybody run, EVERYBODY HIDE!!!!11111
2) FD is making fatal mistake here because x/y/z/w/omega/I told you so;
3) Everyone will melt everyone else faces;
4) "Mom, if those angry boys don't behave, I will play alone"
5) Lot of people have countless hours to burn on this rather pointless issue;
1) They're not coming, they're here. And no... not everybody hide, let's try and deal with it maturely.
2) FD has been very intelligent and a lot of my worries have been debated and discussed and yes, even put to rest. I'm still concerned about the effect of mass group effects and the effect on the community.
3) Nobody is melting anyone's face.
4) Some people will feel that way and that's fine. To be fair most people who want to play single player have always planned on doing so, I've only seen a few posts along the lines of 'If X doesn't happen I might just play single player.
5) It's far from pointless. We've already seen a shift in focus on the forums in the last month, which will only intensify.
First, great to actually find guys from the old crew here! I just returned to Eve last month to find it all sort of faded away. It was a bit melancholic.
Second, why do you get the impression I side with the likes of Goons? Quite the opposite - but I always maintained that players cannot hope to preserve a healthy community if the game is based on faulty design that encourages and rewards the opposite. People think Goons and their ilk ruined what was once a great community - they forget that the seeds of what is today were sown long before Goons came to the scene.
You remember how everyone thought BOB will continue to spread and conquer the entire 0.0 space and shut everyone but their servants and client corporations out? So they sometimes said "GF" instead of "lulz, suckas" after wrecking everything other players built for months because they didn't pay "rent". Not much difference in my book.
But I think ED is different by design - that's all I'm saying. It has no chokepoints. It does not support blob gameplay. It has no mechanisms in place to encourage high-level metagaming. Where are the killboards? Where is the API? Where is the player-run industry? Territorial control?
The galaxy is huge! It would take a player visiting 130 systems every second for 30 years straight to visit them all. That's so mindblowingly huge, I don't think many players get it yet. I think it's *almost* enough to induce an Overview effect in players - certainly reminds me how small we humans are in the grand scheme of things - what game comes even remotely close to that?
So I come here and I see what? Players being worried that they're going to get shot at and laughed at. Discussions on what an impact a large group of players might have on a game that dwarfs Eve so much, the entire Eve cluster is a dot on the galactic map.
What impact they might have? None. If FD keep true to the open nature of this game, if they avoid the design flaws that dragged Eve, and its community to the quagmire of today, there is nothing any group of players can do.
To the game.
They can do plenty to the players, and I can tell you one thing - that's already happening. Not just because of Goons. I see the community fragmenting before it even had a chance of getting started. The only worry I actually have is that the potential of a huge, vibrant community of disparate characters, the traders, pirates, bounty hunters, explorers, miners, assassins, soldiers, roleplayers, vagabonds, scoundrels, douchebags, samaritans, vigilantes, you name it - is going to degrade into little, meaningless, disjointed pockets with no real connection between them.
I'm interested in this game not just because I was a fan of Elite. But because the vision behind it is astounding. I'm not talking about the old games. Old games were toys. This... this could actually be a tool. I always like to observe the social aspects of MMO gameplay, especially sandboxes like Eve, and now ED. You can learn a lot about human nature that way; unrestrained by inhibition or threat of lasting consequences, players act out true to their nature more than they do as people in real life.
So here we are, close to the launch of potentially the biggest, most interesting social experiment in the history of gaming, nevermind MMOs, and the thing that worries people the most is what some group of guys from an internet forum might do to the game?
Let them come. We will see what they, and us, are made of. The more, the merrier.
Making people aware by engendering a hostile forums environment, and engaging in McCarthy style finger pointing?
Oh, thank you very much!
I didn't realise I needed your permission.
Those are nice words to use in relation to someone who plays a video-game in a way you don't personally deem appropriate.
So when a new member appears and asks an innocent question, and you insinuate they're a goon... you're implying that they're all of the above things? Is that an appropriate way to address new members?
Is that an appropriate way to address anyone?
These forums used to be a friendly place. A beacon of civility actually. If you took a step back from your overzealous defence of the game, you'd see you're turning them into something else. Goons aren't griefing these forums, you are.
tooterfish, I wouldn't really call those who aspire to use exploits, griefing and winning by any cost (?
) ... playing, do you? The rest of the points you make I'll bear in mind, thank you.
My sentiments almost exactly. There is a small faction doing this to the forums currently.
Have to agree with you Jeff, on this.
Tempers are running a little hot on some topics, I'm partially responsible for this because I do have concerns and it happens to be about a hot button topic. But remember that a lot of us agree on a lot of things, it was one of the nice things about the Where I Stand thread. A might agree with B on this, but disagree on this and this. That's okay.
I don't agree on everything with even my closest friends here on forums. And I don't disagree with everything even real goons say either.
I have genuine concerns about them moving en masse both into the game and the effect that might have. Despite what's been said earlier, they aren't stupid and I even respect them. That's partially why I worry about their effect. If there is a loophole I expect them to find it. If they can find a way to 'win' they'll take it. I just hope FD is watching.
The reputation they've 'earned' has been just that. We all know the story of the plucky under dogs who beat the Band of Brothers, fighting battleships in frigates. The guys who tried to play honourably. But eventually they embraced that other side the "Most of the time they’ll just flee or give us what we want. It’s one thing to fight a space samurai who’ll salute you after every fight. It’s another thing to fight Goons who will as they’re going after you mock you into the ground, publish your forums for everybody to laugh over – that’s what we call forum ****, which is where we fight somebody and they will scream and cry about how we’re mean to them, and then we’ll publish that for the world to laugh at" side that Gianturco discusses in various interviews.
I welcome them here if they continue to play nice and I'm aware of what they have done for ED so far. It's probably a big reason for seeing so many EVE players recently, Goons or no. But they leave that crap at the door.
But those of us who don't share their values, we make it clear. But without resorting to name calling and panic. We're a mature group. We should act like it.
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Attacking people for asking questions isn't appropriate, and you're right to call out those that do. Having said that, here's some background on how it happens and how you can help improve things in future...
Imagine you were an avid Chess player and decided to start a Chess club. Each week a group of keen-eyed new players came up and said "wow this game is great! But what if...". One week everyone thinks the pieces should chase each other round the edges of the board, the next week they all think there should be chance cards, the week after they think the pawns should all be unique figures like a little dog or a top hat, and so on.
Of course the right answer is to say the same thing each time: "yes you could make a great game that way, but adding those mechanics to this game would detract from its core aesthetic, here's a video about the theory". But that's a terrible catchphrase and you only have to get your head bitten off once or twice by someone whose great idea you've dismissed before you get bored of saying it. Something punchier and more personal is easier to repeat and hurts less when people take offence - "take that Monopoly rubbish back to Old Kent Road, Pennybags". It's not a great long-term strategy for the game, but it's a much more comfortable short-term tactic for you.
So what can you do to help?
Well, first up although most of the points in your earlier post are very welcome, laughing at diehard Star Citizen fans makes it harder for people that prefer SC's aesthetic to find their niche, and teaches people it's OK to be disrespectful to people who like other games. ED will be a better game if we leave SC fans alone, or politely correct factual inaccuracies and acknowledge the parts of their game that are genuinely great.
Second, you can do the hard part yourself. Politely explaining things to newbies gives them the opportunity to bite your head off, and if you explain something to them and they respond civilly, those of us that are now twice shy will find it much easier to come in and discuss any nuances you might have overlooked.
Finally, I said at the top it's right to call people out for personal attacks, but the Internet makes everyone seem 25% less reasonable than they sound in their head, so if you think you're responding appropriately to a post that crossed the line, remember that they probably think they were 5% behind the line and you're 20% past it. Similarly, remember everything you say needs to look at least 25% too lame to your eye for it to come out right when others read it. Especially when calling people out for bad behaviour, remember to preview your post as many times as you can to remove accusatory language - you can always post the strong version later, but you can't take back a message that came across as hurtful.
This whole thread starts to remind me of the urban legend about the US navy in Newfoundland. If you imagine the US to be Goonsquad (or similar) and the Canadians to be those who educate and protect the game design...
Americans: Please divert your course 15 degrees to the North to avoid a Collision.
Canadians: Recommend you divert YOUR course 15 degrees to the South to avoid a collision.
Americans: This is the Captain of a US Navy ship. I say again, divert YOUR course.
Canadians: No. I say again, you divert YOUR course.
Americans: This is the aircraft carrier USS Lincoln, the second largest ship in the United States' Atlantic fleet. We are accompanied by three destroyers, three cruisers and numerous support vessels. I demand that YOU change your course 15 degrees north, that's one five degrees north, or countermeasures will be undertaken to ensure the safety of this ship.
Americans: Please divert your course 15 degrees to the North to avoid a Collision.
Canadians: Recommend you divert YOUR course 15 degrees to the South to avoid a collision.
Americans: This is the Captain of a US Navy ship. I say again, divert YOUR course.
Canadians: No. I say again, you divert YOUR course.
Americans: This is the aircraft carrier USS Lincoln, the second largest ship in the United States' Atlantic fleet. We are accompanied by three destroyers, three cruisers and numerous support vessels. I demand that YOU change your course 15 degrees north, that's one five degrees north, or countermeasures will be undertaken to ensure the safety of this ship.
Canadians: This is a lighthouse. Your call.
An Oldie but a Goldie.
I have to check Jeff - I think you actually meant to say above (my bold and italics) "they turned to the dark side!"
Joking apart - this is proving to be a very interesting thread ... it looks like we're not in Kansas anymore.
Well by my reckoning that points to it being your fault MrBungle!
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