Balance issues with combat that I've noticed

[Alienami]

Why should there be balance in the first place tho? A quick ship can outmanouver the slow, but "tougher" anyhow.

Those elements are already in, but you if load on these other elements like shield batteries along with bigger shields and more armor; that make the bigger, tougher ships... tougher still yet, and nearly always win as a result...why would anyone use anything but that?

But it doesn't stop with defense anyway -- Small ships are limited on power, my Cobra can get tons more power than my Viper could. This means I can do more loadouts and have more damage potential and defensive potential, the same is true for bigger ships. Everything keeps scaling better on them except for speed and turning, but with the right skill and upgrades that isn't a big issue and you are still at this "I win button" scenario, which is not good for the long-term health of any game.

These are my thoughts from experience so far, at least.

In short, I feel that they have an edge over bigger ships only in running for their lives, begging for mercy...with little hope of winning, if we are not careful with balance.


@Steed
Yeah, buffing shield strength would be an improvement also, but it makes less sense, speaking from a rough understanding of how the components probably would work if real.
Buffering more System power just seems the most logical and balanced solution to me so far. And, a similar version for weapons would be pretty interesting, as long as they were mutually exclusive... you know, so you don't overload your ships electrical wiring systems...and for balance.

 

[Remiel]

I'd disagree. I'm not a particularly skilled pilot by any means, and I've been outmaneuvered plenty of times this week, to the point where I knew I was out of my league and ran away (easily, since I still had enough shield banks). The problem is that, so far, it seems to be almost mathematically impossible to down shields with shield banks on. The rate of recharge exceeds most ships maximum DPS output.

DPS is not the issue, the ability to apply it, or alpha the shields down, even just by ramming, is enough to get through shield banks. Once those shields are down, shield cell banks don't do crap until they come back online again, and that's where good piloting comes in. And at the end of the day, those shields are only gonna last as long as the cell banks have charges. Outflying and pressing the attack, and those charges are gonna run dry if the pilot using them relies on them too much.

 

[Morbad]

The rate of recharge exceeds most ships maximum DPS output.

Only if you are fighting ships geared to cut through armor.

Gimbaled weapons and projectiles are terrible to use against those with many SCBs because gimbals are inherently less accurate, beyond a relatively short range, than a player with steady aim and good controls, while projectiles and missiles are generally weaker than lasers against shields.

The most common loadouts are those setup for ease of use (gimbals) or taking large bounties (anti-armor weapons for bringing down heavier ships), but a more dedicate anti-shield, or an extremely high alpha damage loadout will be much more effective at countering SCBs.

I don't think the cannons are OP - I couldn't hit a barn with a cannon even if I was INSIDE the barn XD

The beta 1 cannon he's talking about were much more potent weapons...higher muzzle velocity, faster cycle times, bigger ammo pool, and far more useful sight.

Rail guns one shot shields even on a class 6/A. You obviously have not been fighting players/NPC's with superior firepower.

Indeed.

you are still at this "I win button" scenario, which is not good for the long-term health of any game.

No we aren't.

People just haven't adjusted their tactics and tools to counter SCBs. They get stuck in the rut of what has worked well enough in other scenarios, and refuse to try something different even when the need to do so becomes readily apparent.

 

[Alienami]

DPS is not the issue, the ability to apply it, or alpha the shields down, even just by ramming, is enough to get through shield banks. Once those shields are down, shield cell banks don't do crap until they come back online again, and that's where good piloting comes in. And at the end of the day, those shields are only gonna last as long as the cell banks have charges. Outflying and pressing the attack, and those charges are gonna run dry if the pilot using them relies on them too much.

Going to have to fly with burst weapon loadouts, like Cobra or better yet Asp or Python with Rail Guns... which is not ideal for balance if the only way to win a fight is have better energy weapon burst potential, as the big ships are always going to do better at this as well as having better shields and armor.

Doesn't ramming also hurt your own shields as well? I've not tried ramming anything just yet for fear of that.

 

[Johnny Spaceboots]

DPS is not the issue, the ability to apply it, or alpha the shields down, even just by ramming, is enough to get through shield banks. Once those shields are down, shield cell banks don't do crap until they come back online again, and that's where good piloting comes in. And at the end of the day, those shields are only gonna last as long as the cell banks have charges. Outflying and pressing the attack, and those charges are gonna run dry if the pilot using them relies on them too much.

I have fought two vipers, each geared fully with a myriad of beams which excel at cutting through shields, and they were unable to beat the recharge rate despite landing almost all of their shots. The ONLY thing that I have found that is to be a concern are an anaconda's plasma accelerator cannon, which even still, does not take down my shields entirely (usually leaving about half a bar of them left, which I can just recharge). Those charges will run dry after an incredibly tedious process of me having to use them 33 times, at which point I can just run away if I get spooked by the faintest hint of destruction.

Only if you are fighting ships geared to cut through armor.

Gimbaled weapons and projectiles are terrible to use against those with many SCBs because gimbals are inherently less accurate, beyond a relatively short range, than a player with steady aim and good controls, while projectiles and missiles are generally weaker than lasers against shields.

The most common loadouts are those setup for ease of use (gimbals) or taking large bounties (anti-armor weapons for bringing down heavier ships), but a more dedicate anti-shield, or an extremely high alpha damage loadout will be much more effective at countering SCBs.



The beta 1 cannon he's talking about were much more potent weapons...higher muzzle velocity, faster cycle times, bigger ammo pool, and far more useful sight.



Indeed.



No we aren't.

People just haven't adjusted their tactics and tools to counter SCBs. They get stuck in the rut of what has worked well enough in other scenarios, and refuse to try something different even when the need to do so becomes readily apparent.

Even still, I don't think that people who have weapons geared for hull damage should be literally incapable of ever getting through somebodies shields. It makes ballistics an utterly useless weapon type then. That said, I have also not found rail guns to be capable of one shotting my shields. They typically seem to take about a bar out of them. Currently, with shield banks as they are, the only weapons load outs I can see would be those that are high shield damage and high burst... which is fairly unbalanced when most of the other weapons are left out in the cold.

 

[Morbad]

Going to have to fly with burst weapon loadouts, like Cobra or better yet Asp or Python with Rail Guns... which is not ideal for balance if the only way to win a fight is have better energy weapon burst potential, as the big ships are always going to do better at this as well as having better shields.

Big ships are slower and less maneuverable. They are easy to hit, and generally easy to outrun. You may not be able to take down a skilled Asp or Python pilot, but you can almost always disengage.

Doesn't ramming also hurt your own shields as well? I've not tried ramming anything just yet for fear of that.

Yes, it does..but if you have reason to believe the opponent has more SCBs or lesser shield strength, it may be worth it if you are in a position to do so.

That said, I don't normally consider ramming a viable tactic. Rarely do I close to such distances, and a failed ramming attempt can put you in a very disadvantageous position.

I have fought two vipers, each geared fully with a myriad of beams which excel at cutting through shields, and they were unable to beat the recharge rate despite landing almost all of their shots. The ONLY thing that I have found that is to be a concern are an anaconda's plasma accelerator cannon, which even still, does not take down my shields entirely (usually leaving about half a bar of them left, which I can just recharge). Those charges will run dry after an incredibly tedious process of me having to use them 33 times, at which point I can just run away if I get spooked by the faintest hint of destruction.

Two is hardly a large sample. The last time my shields were dropped in PvP was over a dozen PvP encounters ago, and only in one of those encounters did I feel it prudent to use an SCB charge at all.

Carrying all that weight in SCBs makes you vulnerable to other Cobra, and even some lighter Vipers if your shields are ever brought down. My last combat Cobra was cable of 310 cruise and over 450 boost...if you have ten or thirteen tons of SCBs, you would not be as fast. You don't lose weight as you use up charges either. One miscalculation and you'll have a dozen tons of dead weight plus no shields.

 

[Johnny Spaceboots]

Big ships are slower and less maneuverable. They are easy to hit, and generally easy to outrun. You may not be able to take down a skilled Asp or Python pilot, but you can almost always disengage.



Yes, it does..but if you have reason to believe the opponent has more SCBs or lesser shield strength, it may be worth it if you are in a position to do so.

That said, I don't normally consider ramming a viable tactic. Rarely do I close to such distances, and a failed ramming attempt can put you in a very disadvantageous position.



Two is hardly a large sample. The last time my shields were dropped in PvP was over a dozen PvP encounters ago, and only in one of those encounters did I feel it prudent to use an SCB charge at all.

Carrying all that weight in SCBs makes you vulnerable to other Cobra, and even some lighter Vipers if your shields are ever brought down. My last combat Cobra was cable of 310 cruise and over 450 boost...if you have ten or thirteen tons of SCBs, you would not be as fast. You don't lose weight as you use up charges either. One miscalculation and you'll have a dozen tons of dead weight plus no shields.

Two vipers at the same time. Beyond that, I have fought dozens of them solo, tanked the full brunt of npc anaconda lasers without a care in the world, a myriad of other encounters with things that should theoretically be very dangerous, and yet I haven't been harmed once. And heck, may I mention (I'm not bragging since I find this to be cheap) that I bested those two vipers, since each of them only had 1 module of shield cells, while I was loaded to the gills with them? I turned each pass with them into a straight up slugging fest and forced them to run away due to the pure power of attrition, and it was the most unrewarding experience ever.

 

[Morbad]

Two vipers at the same time. Beyond that, I have fought dozens of them solo, tanked the full brunt of npc anaconda lasers without a care in the world, a myriad of other encounters with things that should theoretically be very dangerous, and yet I haven't been harmed once. And heck, may I mention (I'm not bragging since I find this to be cheap) that I bested those two vipers, since each of them only had 1 module of shield cells, while I was loaded to the gills with them? I turned each pass with them into a straight up slugging fest and forced them to run away due to the pure power of attrition, and it was the most unrewarding experience ever.

I put this down more to the relative incompetence of your opponents than any overpoweredness of SCBs.

 

[Remiel]

Going to have to fly with burst weapon loadouts, like Cobra or better yet Asp or Python with Rail Guns... which is not ideal for balance if the only way to win a fight is have better energy weapon burst potential, as the big ships are always going to do better at this as well as having better shields and armor.

Doesn't ramming also hurt your own shields as well? I've not tried ramming anything just yet for fear of that.

Balance is not the problem here. The problem is this attitude that any ship, no matter how you load it, should be capable of taking on all kinds of targets with equal capability. This is quite simply ridiculous. Knowing what kind of targets you can and cannot kill with your loadout, or better yet, planning your loadout with specific targets in mind, and then flying well, is how you go about beating anything and everything, but there should never ever be one ship and loadout that can do everything equally well. That's when you start having balance issues. As it is, you have to actually put some thought into what you're flying, and how you're fitting it.

 

[Alienami]

Big ships are slower and less maneuverable. They are easy to hit, and generally easy to outrun. You may not be able to take down a skilled Asp or Python pilot, but you can almost always disengage.

Doesn't that mean my fears of "Elite: Ruuuuuuuuuuuuuun-they-have-a-bigger-ship-than-me" are not baseless and why we need to make sure the balance is good enough so the game doesn't devolve into big ships only, or worse yet existing players in big ships and newbies in small ships only? Keep in mind I like bigger ships, but that would be damaging for a new game if everyone gets bored or overly frustrated, or flat out rage quits.

I mean, sure, enough smaller ships could win... but...the other guys could just bring more bigger ships as well and still win.

I'm just trying to explain pitfalls as I see them currently, I could well be wrong.

Balance is not the problem here. The problem is this attitude that any ship, no matter how you load it, should be capable of taking on all kinds of targets with equal capability. This is quite simply ridiculous. Knowing what kind of targets you can and cannot kill with your loadout, or better yet, planning your loadout with specific targets in mind, and then flying well, is how you go about beating anything and everything, but there should never ever be one ship and loadout that can do everything equally well. That's when you start having balance issues. As it is, you have to actually put some thought into what you're flying, and how you're fitting it.

I am for Rock, Paper, Scissors... but this system is looking to me like "Rock SMASH EVERYTHING! RAWR! ROCK STRONGEST ONE THERE IS!" -- and that would be a Incredible Hulk reference about bigger ships being rocks, medium ships being scissors, and smaller ships being paper.. but paper still losing.

I am merely saying to be careful that scenario doesn't come about if it isn't here already.

 

[SuBSynk]

Doesn't that mean my fears of "Elite: Ruuuuuuuuuuuuuun-they-have-a-bigger-ship-than-me" are not baseless and why we need to make sure the balance is good enough so the game doesn't devolve into big ships only, or worse yet existing players in big ships and newbies in small ships only? Keep in mind I like bigger ships, but that would be damaging for a new game if everyone gets bored or overly frustrated, or flat out rage quits.

I mean, sure, enough smaller ships could win... but...the other guys could just bring more bigger ships as well and still win.

I'm just trying to explain pitfalls as I see them currently, I could well be wrong.




I am for Rock, Paper, Scissors... but this system is looking to me like "Rock SMASH EVERYTHING! RAWR! ROCK STRONGEST ONE THERE IS!" -- and that would be a Incredible Hulk reference.

I am merely saying to be careful that scenario doesn't come about if it isn't here already.

Whilst i understand your concerns a large 50/100+ million ship should always be able to defeat a small 100-300k ship if the pilots are of equal skill imo.

 

[anikaiful]

<snip>

There is that, but I don't still see why anything should be "balanced", on any accord. A little squirt like Sidewinder should never, ever, be "balanced" versus anything bigger - the balance I can see coming when multiplayer is improved, 10x 'winders versus 'Conda and so forth. And where's 'conda's carrier ability, can't launch sidewinders yet

Just to sum it... there's no balance, there's no need for balance - you can call your friends to join your FSD wake to make balance.

 

[Sargon]

I think good balance is always about where the tipping point is.
Taking into consideration the variables: strategy, pieces, and position.

Given two chess players of equal strategy and pieces. The one with favorable position should win.
Given two chess players with the same pieces, and equal position. The one with better strategy should win.
Given two chess players of even position and strategy. The one with better pieces should win.

Any offset tipping point contained within these variables will change the results... the complexity increases with every piece of hardware added into the mix.

Folding these basic concepts into ships, and components... therein is the challenge, it's certainly not a simple task.

 

[Morbad]

Doesn't that mean my fears of "Elite: Ruuuuuuuuuuuuuun-they-have-a-bigger-ship-than-me" are not baseless and why we need to make sure the balance is good enough so the game doesn't devolve into big ships only, or worse yet existing players in big ships and newbies in small ships only?

It won't devolve into this because two Vipers or Cobra will always be able to run from the big ships, while even the best of pilots in the toughest of ships will be in serious trouble if more than one competent Viper and/or Cobra decides to have a go at them...and most would eventually have to retreat from even one skilled pilot in a dramatically more agile or faster ship.

 

[Remiel]

I am for Rock, Paper, Scissors... but this system is looking to me like "Rock SMASH EVERYTHING! RAWR! ROCK STRONGEST ONE THERE IS!" -- and that would be a Incredible Hulk reference about bigger ships being rocks, medium ships being scissors, and smaller ships being paper.. but paper still losing.

I am merely saying to be careful that scenario doesn't come about if it isn't here already.

Actually, you're not factoring in piloting ability. It seems hardly anyone is, they're just all thinking about the capabilities of one ship vs the capabilities of another, piloting notwithstanding. I'll tell you what my favourite ship is - the Eagle. It's squishy as hell but if flown right, it's untouchable, no shield cell banks required. Hell, if flown particularly well, no shields at all required. I've used it a few times now taking down various bigger things like that Anaconda in the assassination missions you get. This is only rock-paper-scissors for people that think size matters. They are usually the same kinds of people that lose their battleships to my frigates in EVE Online.

I've changed my mind, this is a balance issue - it's about player ability not being the same across the board. Your quip about the enemy bringing more ships and still winning is irrelevant, by the way. The same thing will happen in any game, and any situation, when you are outnumbered. It takes a particularly high degree of talent to survive being outnumbered and outgunned, but it's not impossible. In any case, being outnumbered is not a balance issue either. In an MMO, you are more than capable of bringing more friends of your own as well.

 

[Morbad]

the Eagle. It's squishy as hell but if flown right, it's untouchable

Are you willing to put this statement to the test?

 

[Phaaded]

I think this: balancing things based on PvP should never happen, unless game is pure PvP.

Because you are stupid.

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Cooldowns aren't really a "thing", except for FDS (I hate arbitrary cooldowns in about every game which have them). But something like supercharging shield regen would indeed call for heat issues, which I see as much better mechanic than some oddball cooldown timer.

Why on earth would it be oddball?

Oh a cooldown on something that prevents your shields from going down?

Yeah that makes perfect sense.

 

[anikaiful]

Because you are stupid.

Oh, and you're a moron. Stalemate.

 

[Phaaded]

Why should there be balance in the first place tho? A quick ship can outmanouver the slow, but "tougher" anyhow.

Why should there be balance..........? lunatic

 

[SuBSynk]

Because you are stupid.

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Why on earth would it be oddball?

Oh a cooldown on something that prevents your shields from going down?

Yeah that makes perfect sense.

You obviously have not fought decent players in larger ships in PvP so maybe quit with the name calling and actually get some more experience before spouting your mouth off?

Shield cells are almost useless against a ship with large hard point Rail guns i should know as i have the ability to use 27 of them and it makes zero difference

Seems you need to calm down a bit in general, avoiding the auto mod and using profanity in threads only makes you come across like a child.

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Why should there be balance..........? lunatic

Its not a PvP game and balance is not something of importance when players can get massive advantages with larger more powerful and vastly more expensive ships. By design balance -between ships of different costs- is not something that Elite is attempting to achieve.