Balance issues with combat that I've noticed

[Quineloe]

A lot of truth in this statement.

I don't think this statement belongs here. It's mainly coming from classical MMORPGs with both PVE and PVP in them, where the player characters fight mobs of significantly more power (as in hp, dps) than the player characters, and the player characters overcome this with control abilities. So you make the controls too powerful, they dominate PVP and it's all about controlling enemy players, you make them too weak, you invalidate certain tactics to defeat mobs.

ED is different, the mobs we fight here are in fact in the same ships as we have available to us. Any balance changes in ED will affect PVE and PVP exactly in the same way. You're not going to hurt one by benefiting the other.

My view on the in game balancing, is if everyone can buy them then there is no need to balance them, everyone has the same opportunity to take advantage of any so called unbalance aspect of the game, if you think something is too powerful use it.

Like everyone can pick Akuma in Street Fighter 2, therefore he's balanced?

 

[NullAndVoid]

Actually I think they should just delete SCB, a bad idea in retrospect and makes 99% of the game too easy.

 

[Veldryn]

ED is different, the mobs we fight here are in fact in the same ships as we have available to us. Any balance changes in ED will affect PVE and PVP exactly in the same way. You're not going to hurt one by benefiting the other.

Not exactly. NPC don't play by the same rules as players. They don't use all available items, and they have a strong predefined (and predictable) behavior. Pretty much like any MMO mob (WRT the predictable behavior).

SCB fall exactly in this category of items *not* used by NPCs. Removing SCB would make NPC Ships harder, while not changing the PvP balance.

 

[Endziel]

Cell banks are horribly overpowered and make combat basically trivial against anyone who has less cells.

 

[ChaseBears]

@ Jake: There's two reasons things should be balanced even though everyone has the same access to them.

First is diversity of choice. In an ideal world, every choice should be compelling in its own way and has its advantages. Items that are imbalanced or extraordinarily powerful harm this, because players feel compelled to pick the overpowered item rather than anything else they might choose. Similarly, they feel compelled to take gear that counters that specific overpowered item. It homogenizes loadouts, making the game less interesting and less fun.

Second is gameplay design. Shield cell battles really stretch out combats, and turn them into sieges more than fights. It also heavily impacts differentiation between player and NPC- a player target behaves very different statistically than an NPC ship right now with regard to Chaff, SCBs, and several over items. SCBs is what shows it the most; the NPCs are required to be artificially stupid and not use SCBs else the game would be nigh unplayable for combat players.

The third and bonus reason is that potions are dumb1111111!!!!!!

 

[Ardent Finder]

I agree some limits would be helpful. While I CAN wear down and chase someone til they are out of everything, that is fun for neither of us.
So, there are a number of ways this could be made more reasonable, perhaps a combination in various degrees of severity:

Cooldowns
Limits on number of modules fitted.
Stacking penalties. For every module fitted, each module's effectiveness is lowered. One can have more charges, but each individual charge is less effective, in total shield HP regenned or in recharge duration, or both.
Effects on weaponry. Having or using multiple shield cell banks affects offensive capabilities in some way.

I find keeping your proposal as a high-concept idea rather than bogging down with specifics helps prevent pedantic nitpicking.

Doesn't completely stop it, as us pedants are like life. We find a way.

 

[Veldryn]

Using a SCB could also damage the Shield, due to an overload. Even have a 25% chance of destroying the shield completely. That would be fun Like a last-resort item: if it doesn't explode, you're safe. Otherwise, you're toast.

 

[Radamanthe]

Using a SCB could also damage the Shield, due to an overload. Even have a 25% chance of destroying the shield completely. That would be fun Like a last-resort item: if it doesn't explode, you're safe. Otherwise, you're toast.

If only fun was included in modern games...

 

[Zenicetus]

Just adding to the chorus here....

If it were me designing this game, I'd get rid of them entirely. Or at least limit it to one bank per ship with a low ammo count. A game mechanic like this wasn't required in any of the classic space games of the past, and they were still fun to fly and fight. It makes for longer fights, which the FD designers probably want, but it deprecates pilot skill in favor of whoever shows up with more SBC's. That's cheesy.

Once something like this shows up in the game, I'm afraid it's unlikely to be removed completely (imagine the outcry if the modules just suddenly disappeared from player ships). But they need to be severely limited somehow.

 

[bassman]

Just adding to the chorus here....

Me too, shield cells completely change the whole dynamics of combat, ship roles, and power management. The game was more interesting without them.

 

[bassman]

everyone has the same opportunity to take advantage of any so called unbalance aspect of the game,

The problem is that opportunity becomes obligation when said item is too powerful. grossly OP items reduce effective choice.

 

[Psaikon]

All SCB related balance issues aside for a second. The impact of several SCBs on combat basically is that they tend to prolong fights by an amount that was completely uncalled for. What you get as a consequence is two sponges throwing rolls of toilet paper at each other, instead of short and intense encounters with adrenaline rushing through your body.
This just by itself already makes multiple SCBs a completely superfluous game mechanic.

 

[Johnny Spaceboots]

My view on the in game balancing, is if everyone can buy them then there is no need to balance them, everyone has the same opportunity to take advantage of any so called unbalance aspect of the game, if you think something is too powerful use it. Just because you don't have the skill or smarts to figure out how to overcome a system in game doesn't mean the dev's have to make it so you can, you either use it yourself or work out how to overcome it. Life is not fair, and you should not expect Elite Dangerous to be either.

The problem with that is that since everybody is buying them, in the rare instances of pvp, it's simply too boring to bother fighting with each other. I know what's going to happen. Neither of us are at risk of dying, and all we're doing is wasting ammo. It kills pvp, and perhaps the bigger issue is that it makes PVE an absolute cakewalk because I can employ poor piloting skills, tank every anaconda laser, and still stomp the conda without breaking a sweat.

Balancing isn't as simple as "oh well everybody can use it!" Not when the abuse of the mechanic is simply toxic by nature. the ability for every player to be toxic does not a fun game make.

 

[Derath]

Just thought i'd throw in my experience, I pilot an asp that i've tried with various hardpoints and while i had to get the cops involved in my first anaconda kill to act as a distraction in a truly cowardly fashion as soon as i picked up some shield cells I've ceased to have any trouble whatsoever.

I have no real way to evaluate my skill as a pilot, I'm very accurate but i'm sure my flight skills leave much to be desired (other than high speed docking). I only mention this because I think its wrong that I can blitz an elite anaconda, I feel like a good player would most likely ravage me and i'd have to flee quickly as i don't understand the space flight well enough, however the hardest AI in the greatest ship is the opposite.

I prefered waiting for the cops assistance, I certainly agree that it would be nice to reduce the effectiveness of shield cells in some manner, I mean i can't carry 30 uses but I get 4 out and thats always been enough.

In the case of balance I would hope that an equally skilled player in a more expensive ship would usually come out on top, but that both genuinely have a chance. If its skewed too far in favour of the smaller ships I feel like upgrades aren't valuable enough or that you can't play your own style. On an unrelated note I find it very strange to destroy a ship which undoubtedly cost upwards of 100million to get 30k bounty.

 

[Johnny Spaceboots]

Just thought i'd throw in my experience, I pilot an asp that i've tried with various hardpoints and while i had to get the cops involved in my first anaconda kill to act as a distraction in a truly cowardly fashion as soon as i picked up some shield cells I've ceased to have any trouble whatsoever.

I have no real way to evaluate my skill as a pilot, I'm very accurate but i'm sure my flight skills leave much to be desired (other than high speed docking). I only mention this because I think its wrong that I can blitz an elite anaconda, I feel like a good player would most likely ravage me and i'd have to flee quickly as i don't understand the space flight well enough, however the hardest AI in the greatest ship is the opposite.

I prefered waiting for the cops assistance, I certainly agree that it would be nice to reduce the effectiveness of shield cells in some manner, I mean i can't carry 30 uses but I get 4 out and thats always been enough.

In the case of balance I would hope that an equally skilled player in a more expensive ship would usually come out on top, but that both genuinely have a chance. If its skewed too far in favour of the smaller ships I feel like upgrades aren't valuable enough or that you can't play your own style. On an unrelated note I find it very strange to destroy a ship which undoubtedly cost upwards of 100million to get 30k bounty.

Good points. I feel like even 4 shield cells makes the game too easy at this juncture.

 

[Tanith Low]

Agree with OP either a cool down on the shield cells or perhaps even better a massive heat spike for using them so that using them basically means you can't fire of charge FSD without damaging your ship. You could instantly recharge your shields but it would be a calculated risk, not a get out of jail free card.

 

[Tenshi]

I think the simplest solution would be to make it so you can only ever install 1 shield cell bank module, just like you can't have more than 1 shield generator.

This is a reasonable way to balance this module.

 

[Phosphero]

I'd honestly prefer shield cell modules to not be ammo based - instead acting like a secondary fast acting capacitor which can be used to recharge shields, but must be recharged using system power just like shields. That way it's still useful as a panic button, but also has a considerable tradeoff.

If you install multiple shield cell modules, it would make both the shields and the other shield cell modules recharge slower due to the fact that you're splitting the same amount of system power over more modules (IE 2 cells and a shield each recharge and 1/3 speed, but allow 3s the shields in the short term)

Furthermore, it would open up possibilities for variations in shield management, such as having a class 6 shield cell which charges a class 3 shield - total shield amount being the same as a class 6 shield and a class 3 cell, but creating a different charging dynamic.


Another way it could be balanced is by adding shield piercing to a limited number of precision weapons, and lowing shield cell health to the point that a skilled player with good aim could take out the relevant subsystems on any ship even if the shields never go down - something like if you deal 6 shield bars worth of damage to a ship while piercing through to the subsystem, it gets destroyed.