Basic question about ED is it MMO or Co-op single player.

[migerious]

my other thread was closed as a duplicate so ill repost it here

as someone who played an mmo back in the day i feel like elite is a MMO Space SIM, but it missing some of the key addictive features of an established MMO.

Raids
Central hub for each faction
boss fights
a market (to sell goods to other players)
crafting
clans


i know there is talk of a few of these in future updates but heres my two cents.

1. Raids

There should be some sort of raid to take down a thargoid, for example a queen or something, would be great if multiple people had to get together to take her down, would also love to have some missions on planets where you need to drive inside a thargoid base.

Another option is taking down capital ships, why isnt there a "raid" type scenario for fighting against these? I know this game is all about RNG but would be cool if you could take down empire capital ship in a system in war state and take over the system for example. this would create a lot more battles between player groups. ( kinda like capture the flag, except you destroy the enemys capital ship, once it respawns or something)

2. Central hub

anyone who played WOW would know about ogrimmar, stormwind and ironforge. this is the general hangout area for players where they would meet and chat, people would LFG and form guilds etc. Why the hell doesnt elite dangerous have this?

for example: once you have earned enough empire rank you can get access to the empire base (planet or otherwise), there empire park up and can talk to each other, trade and craft.

3. clans

there are a lot of player groups already, but none of them are managed in game, they are on inara which is fantastic to be fair. It would be great to have your clan emblem on your ship, have a clan chat window in the game like any other mmo.

4. crafting

gathering materials for the engineers is very frustrating and takes a lot of time. it would be great though if once you have engineered up your 3A FSD for decent range if you could put it up for sale. my only worry here would be gold farmers. but honestly elite doesnt seem like the sort of game i can imagine gold famers getting involved in, but i may be wrong.

 

[Asp Explorer]

I don't mean to sound urm, mean - but those are all pretty tired old tropes.

Who cares about running raids if they are the same scripted instance over and over?

Factions all have their hubs. You'll find players there.

Boss fights? Even NPC Adders can be a boss to a starter Sidey, and some instances will plop a heap of Anacondas on you. Yes, I know some people consider NPC's no challenge at all, but a game boss kind of by definition has to be an NPC.

Market? There's loads of them! Granted - they are not particularly remarkable and I hope this changes soon.

Crafting? FD tried it - and we got RNGineers. This will apparently change sometime soon, hopefully. Mind you, I don't see the purpose in selling upgraded kit to other players, when those players can upgrade the kit they want to upgrade.

Clans? They already, apparently, already exist, and will be expanded in the future. It might be good fun and bring some new gameplay, but I'm not all that keen on Facebook gangs in Space

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

my other thread was closed as a duplicate so ill repost it here

as someone who played an mmo back in the day i feel like elite is a MMO Space SIM, but it missing some of the key addictive features of an established MMO.

Raids
Central hub for each faction
boss fights
a market (to sell goods to other players)
crafting
clans


i know there is talk of a few of these in future updates but heres my two cents.

1. Raids

There should be some sort of raid to take down a thargoid, for example a queen or something, would be great if multiple people had to get together to take her down, would also love to have some missions on planets where you need to drive inside a thargoid base.

Another option is taking down capital ships, why isnt there a "raid" type scenario for fighting against these? I know this game is all about RNG but would be cool if you could take down empire capital ship in a system in war state and take over the system for example. this would create a lot more battles between player groups. ( kinda like capture the flag, except you destroy the enemys capital ship, once it respawns or something)

2. Central hub

anyone who played WOW would know about ogrimmar, stormwind and ironforge. this is the general hangout area for players where they would meet and chat, people would LFG and form guilds etc. Why the hell doesnt elite dangerous have this?

for example: once you have earned enough empire rank you can get access to the empire base (planet or otherwise), there empire park up and can talk to each other, trade and craft.

3. clans

there are a lot of player groups already, but none of them are managed in game, they are on inara which is fantastic to be fair. It would be great to have your clan emblem on your ship, have a clan chat window in the game like any other mmo.

4. crafting

gathering materials for the engineers is very frustrating and takes a lot of time. it would be great though if once you have engineered up your 3A FSD for decent range if you could put it up for sale. my only worry here would be gold farmers. but honestly elite doesnt seem like the sort of game i can imagine gold famers getting involved in, but i may be wrong.

None of those things is what makes the game an MMO.

 

[migerious]

I don't mean to sound urm, mean - but those are all pretty tired old tropes.

Who cares about running raids if they are the same scripted instance over and over?

Factions all have their hubs. You'll find players there.

Boss fights? Even NPC Adders can be a boss to a starter Sidey, and some instances will plop a heap of Anacondas on you. Yes, I know some people consider NPC's no challenge at all, but a game boss kind of by definition has to be an NPC.

Market? There's loads of them! Granted - they are not particularly remarkable and I hope this changes soon.

Crafting? FD tried it - and we got RNGineers. This will apparently change sometime soon, hopefully. Mind you, I don't see the purpose in selling upgraded kit to other players, when those players can upgrade the kit they want to upgrade.

Clans? They already, apparently, already exist, and will be expanded in the future. It might be good fun and bring some new gameplay, but I'm not all that keen on Facebook gangs in Space

so then what do you suggest to make the game better. im all ears.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

64 people in a P2P instance <> massive
Thousands of Cmdrs connected to what is basically just a database <> multiplayer

So .. since we've established nothing in ED is MMO-based; we can all go on with our lives knowing that ED is a video game; and that it really doesn't matter what we label it.

Lordy, 14 pages of this. xD

Nope. ED is an MMO.

The multiplayer of this game is very weak and very underdeveloped (technically but most important the gameplay). Wings was released in early 2015 yet we still dont have proper tools and things to do in co-op. I played with friends who live near me and the desynch is very bad. The game still has desynch issues in supercruise (the typical ruberbanding when entering supercruise).

We cant trade anything with other people not even with friends. When Im playing with friends it feels like Im playing alone, choose an instnce and pew pew.

Multicrew came out and omg what a fail, what a FAIL of a co-op update it is, its horrible. I wanted an engineer to control all the ship systems and USEFUL IN ANY SHIP but what we got? a stupid 3rd person camera turret and the ability to use SLF which it feels like you're flying any other ship but more fragile. Not exciting at all.

If you compare the multiplayer of Elite with EVE you realise the lack of features and gameplay for a multiplayer game. EVE has a variaty of roles and customizations and you need to focus in one role at a time so when you're playing with friends the whole group can function efficiently.
Elite was built around single player and it feels like a single player game.

Until we dont get more complexity in the game mechanics Elite will keep being a casual console game with restrictive gameplay.

None of those things stop the game from being an MMO or multiplayer.

 

[babelfisch]

A rare few don't, but then I don't see them as MMO's; for me it's really simple .. "massive multiplayer" - if it can't handle "massive" it's not an MMO by definition of it's very name. 64 players is not massive. It may be MO, multiplayer online, but I can't call it an MMO.

Wish I could, ED eeeally needs to host the instances .. I eally want to see, for example, hundreds of Cmdr's milling about outside a station in honour of someone, or hundreds of Cmdr's fighting in a single CZ, or hundreds of Cmdrs going to war with hundreds of pirates .. basically, "massive multiplayer" experience that ED cannot do.

Makes me curious how they're going to handle space-legs and stations as social hubs when that day comes .. I worry it'll be a similar experience to Wings.

Again, Guild Wars can handle even less players than ED and it's still a MMO. But I see what you are saying, ED is not a MMO in your personal opinion while it's an MMO outside of your opinion .

 

[Asp Explorer]

so then what do you suggest to make the game better. im all ears.

Better? For whom?

Also:

Wish I could, ED eeeally needs to host the instances .. I eally want to see, for example, hundreds of Cmdr's milling about outside a station in honour of someone, or hundreds of Cmdr's fighting in a single CZ, or hundreds of Cmdrs going to war with hundreds of pirates .. basically, "massive multiplayer" experience that ED cannot do.

Of course ED can do that. It's actually quite trivial to implement - and there are already documented cases where there have been 100+ players in single instances in Elite.

The problem is - that a very large percentage of players simply don't have the computing resources or internet bandwidth to make that an enjoyable experience, and even if computing resources and internet bandwidth reached infinity - the speed of light would still come around to spoil the party.

 

[S3B4ST13N]

Again, Guild Wars can handle even less players than ED and it's still a MMO. But I see what you are saying, ED is not a MMO in your personal opinion while it's an MMO outside of your opinion .

Apparently, GW isn't an MMO.

Guild Wars is a CORPG, or Competitive/Cooperative Online Role Playing Game developed for Windows by ArenaNet and published by NCsoft. The first campaign of Guild Wars, Guild Wars Prophecies was released on April 28, 2005. The different genre was chosen (as opposed to the "Massively Multiplayer Online (MMO) RPG") due to the perceived differences between the game and other MMOs: the focus on Player versus Player (PvP) rather than Player versus Environment (PvE) play made it almost a unique case at the time, players received their own instanced copy of explorable zones and parties were limited to 8 players each, a tiny number compared to the massive caps of other games, which often allowed for up to 64 players in a single party (and unlimited players in non-instanced zones, which were the norm).

- https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars

Go figure.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Apparently, GW isn't an MMO.


- https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars

Go figure.

So the only reason why they didn't call it an MMO was because of the focus on PvP and nothing to do with numbers in an instance. You do know by posting that you are undermining your own argument.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

64 people in a P2P instance <> massive
Thousands of Cmdrs connected to what is basically just a database <> multiplayer

So, basically, you are declaring many established MMOs to not be MMOs! Okaaay!

And any game with 2 or more players playing at the same time is multiplayer.

Here, let me enlighten you, this is a multiplayer game:

 

[S3B4ST13N]

So the only reason why they didn't call it an MMO was because of the focus on PvP and nothing to do with numbers in an instance. You do know by posting that you are undermining your own argument.

Hardly.

My point was that there's a variety of things that can determine if something is an MMO, or not. There's no hard or fast rules, apparently; evidenced by the fact that ArenaNet felt they were making a CRPG, not an MMO .. despite GW being MMO-esque in nature. (Given the tiny amount of players per instance and it's general setup, I'm hesitant to call it an MMO, despite it working on a C/S architecture and being able to host thousands of players. The extreme instancing breaks it down quite substantially, and IMHO, detracts from the "massively" aspect of what an MMO (in my eyes) should be).

Frontier felt they were making an MMO, despite not having many of the defining attributes of what many consider to be an MMO.

 

[S3B4ST13N]

So, basically, you are declaring many established MMOs to not be MMOs! Okaaay!

And any game with 2 or more players playing at the same time is multiplayer.

Here, let me enlighten you, this is a multiplayer game:

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/48Ed8Kkfe-g/maxresdefault.jpg

There's quite a difference between a BGS (which is basically just a database with a number cruncher that spits out results) and an MMO's server, even the server of the game you just linked.
In an MMO, the server spends a lot of time informing the client what is happening (where players are, if they hit you, what did they hit you with, what damage occurred) etc, which the client then renders on screen. ED servers do not do that; that's all handled by the Clients during a P2P session.

Given the information available on the internet, we kinda know how ED works with P2P and the BGS and Matching, and how MMO's work; the rest I've filled in using an experienced guess and working knowledge of Client/Server architectures. They do not work the same way.

Is ED a multiplayer game? Yes. Definitely.
Is ED a massive multiplayer game? Definitely, not.

Feel free to do the research on the different types of server connectivity; I have and this is the conclusion I came to.

Again, ED is not an MMO in my opinion.
Again again, nor does it matter what I, you or anyone else thinks.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

There's quite a difference between a BGS (which is basically just a database with a number cruncher that spits out results) and an MMO's server, even the server of the game you just linked.
In an MMO, the server spends a lot of time informing the client what is happening (where players are, if they hit you, what did they hit you with, what damage occurred) etc, which the client then renders on screen. ED servers do not do that; that's all handled by the Clients during a P2P session.

Given the information available on the internet, we kinda know how ED works with P2P and the BGS and Matching, and how MMO's work; the rest I've filled in using an experienced guess and working knowledge of Client/Server architectures. They do not work the same way.

Is ED a multiplayer game? Yes. Definitely.
Is ED a massive multiplayer game? Definitely, not.

Feel free to do the research on the different types of server connectivity; I have and this is the conclusion I came to.

Again, ED is not an MMO in my opinion.
Again again, nor does it matter what I, you or anyone else thinks.

Sorry, still disagree. The architecture doesn't matter. They could be using RFC 2549, and as long as we were all online in the same galaxy, capable of interacting with each other, it would still be an MMO... although a rather laggy one.

 

[GreyAreaUK]

Sorry, still disagree. The architecture doesn't matter. They could be using RFC 2549, and as long as we were all online in the same galaxy, capable of interacting with each other, it would still be an MMO... although a rather laggy one.

*chuckle* I thought I recognised that RFC...

 

[Jack Schitt]

214 posts, mostly the same old stuff that's been rehashed hundreds of times in the last two years, and OP hasn't responded since #88. I recommend the swarm breaks up, returns to the nest, and awaits the next stick.

 

[babelfisch]

Apparently, GW isn't an MMO.


- https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars

Go figure.

Guild Wars is a massively multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG) series developed by ArenaNet and published by NCSOFT. The games were critically well received[1][2][3][4] and won many editor's choice awards, as well as awards such as Best Value, Best Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game (MMORPG), and Best Game.[5] Guild Wars was noted for being one of the few commercially developed games in the MMORPG genre to offer online play without subscription fees,[6] its instanced approach to MMORPG play,[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild_Wars
Go figure yourself

There's quite a difference between a BGS (which is basically just a database with a number cruncher that spits out results) and an MMO's server, even the server of the game you just linked.
In an MMO, the server spends a lot of time informing the client what is happening (where players are, if they hit you, what did they hit you with, what damage occurred) etc, which the client then renders on screen. ED servers do not do that; that's all handled by the Clients during a P2P session.

Given the information available on the internet, we kinda know how ED works with P2P and the BGS and Matching, and how MMO's work; the rest I've filled in using an experienced guess and working knowledge of Client/Server architectures. They do not work the same way.

Is ED a multiplayer game? Yes. Definitely.
Is ED a massive multiplayer game? Definitely, not.

Feel free to do the research on the different types of server connectivity; I have and this is the conclusion I came to.

Again, ED is not an MMO in my opinion.
Again again, nor does it matter what I, you or anyone else thinks.

No, there is not quite a difference because early games were text and database based.

 

[sollisb]

Massive Multi-Player Online...

Technically, Yes..

In execution.. Not even close.

Remember the Salome debacle?

Eliteangerous is to my mind a self made experience.

It's not a sandbox you are are limited to the few modules which are themselves fixed, to create your ship. The engineering of said modules is a totally random affair. A good example of a sandbox would be KSP.

It is not a simulator. Flight Sim is a simulator.

It is not 'really' or tradionally an MMO. Everquest was an MMO, WoW and it's ilk are MMOs.

ED is an experience. Sometimes good... Sometimes a real pain in the bottom.

 

[S3B4ST13N]

Sorry, still disagree. The architecture doesn't matter. They could be using RFC 2549, and as long as we were all online in the same galaxy, capable of interacting with each other, it would still be an MMO... although a rather laggy one.

Agree to disagree.
I'm going to lunch. Cheerio.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

So, for those who are saying number of players in an instance is a prerequisite for a game to be classed as an MMO, can we get an actual number on this?

8? 16? 32? 64? 128? 1000000?

At what point does a game magically become an MMO due to number of players who can directly interact with each other at once?

 

[ZeroAi]

I categorize Elite Dangerous as single payer co-op game. It's not a MMO (no matter how hard you want to call it that way) due to lack of MMO mechanics.

Definition - Wiki :
"A massively multiplayer online game (MMOG, or more commonly, MMO) is an online game which is capable of supporting large numbers of players, typically from hundreds to thousands, on the same server. MMOs can enable players to cooperate and compete with each other on a large scale, and sometimes to interact meaningfully with people around the world."

online game - fail

-solo, private group mode swich that i can summon any time to avoid enemy players.

capable of supporting large numbers of players, typically from hundreds to thousandson the same server - fail

enable players to cooperate on a large scale - fail

-only CG's,
-exploration expeditions is like running in group of people around the forest in World of warcraft - you can do it alone or in a group, it doesnt matter coz additional players arent needed to acomplish anything nor they add any content outside common social experience,
-BGS or Power Play is fun for a moment until you realize that you have to do the same thng (like you are chained to the same activity) week after week, and really you dont feel you achived anything nor you action mean something. In BGS you have diplomacy, wars, alliances, politics - looks great... until you have done it and see there is nothing there and whole BGS is basically pointless like Power Play. BGS have two problems - wars with other player faction (it dont feel like war) and sense of achivement coz only some exel info on the map and mission board changes and you really cant lose anthing. So BGS and PP fail due to simple fact overwhelming number of players just ignore it.

compete with each other on a large scale - fail

- so basically PP and BGS decsribed abve.


So what do you think guys - what animal ED is ... ?

... and please for (whatever you are scared of) sake dont say ED is MMO coz FD said so, its like "the Earth is flat" coz someone said so... [noob]

You make some great points.

And Co-op today is sadly limited to Wing and MC combat, as
- Wing trade dividends are tiny.
- Wing co-op exploration is plagued by wingman nav lock issues
- MC only supports profit sharing for Combat

But hopefully the Beyond addresses some of this with Wing Missions and Squadrons.