Engineers Beta 3.0 Engineering Differential Data

Greetings, Commanders.

Not sure if anyone else has done this yet, but I have compiled a list of all frequently-used Engineer mods from the end of the 3.0 beta for comparison against the current (2.3) values.
God rolls and existing experimental upgrades are not included in the comparison, for obvious reasons.
Let me know if there is anything I need to update or change.

Engineering v3 Beta Master Sheet

Edit: I have added an additional sheet to this document, 'Notes/User Guide'. This should help answer any questions about the data in the sheet and how it is formatted.

Edit 2: This document lists some of the material trading mechanics and layouts, along with rough values. If someone wants to use this to begin work on a material trading assist tool, it would surely be much appreciated by the community, myself included.
 
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...I have compiled a list of all frequently-used Engineer mods from the end of the 3.0 beta for comparison against the current (2.3) values....

VERY nicely done, subscribed as I assume you'll update this when 3.0 launches. Very interesting to see the changes, hopefully all those crying about grandfathered modules will see this and realize the sky is in fact not falling.

Also curious if you've seen anyone do something similar for material trading - making a grid/app of what does what.

~X
 
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You assume correctly - I will endeavor to keep this updated with the inevitable balance patches they will doubtless release after 3.0 lands as well.

As for material trading, it's actually quite simple, at least it was at the end of the beta - as far as I could tell in the limited time I spent with it, it seems that the system works off of a grid, with items farther away (and farther to the right) having a higher A > B exchange rate, and the opposite being true for items closer or farther to the left. The exchange rates seem to be on factors of 3 (1, 3, 9, 27, 81). This appears to hold true for all three types of trader (manufactured, element, and data), with there being an (obvious) cap of 81 to 1 (or vice-versa) for materials, since 100 seems to be the basic cap for rarer materials. This may change when the update comes out, of course, but it is by no means random. I could see someone easily cobbling together a spreadsheet or simple Java (or Python?) app to calculate values for those that need it.
 
As for material trading, it's actually quite simple....

Sure, but does anyone know what the grid is? What the "best" materials are? I jotted some down really quick and it seemed the best ones are:

Pharma isolators
military grade alloys
proto heat radiators
biotech conductors
improved comp
military super capacitors
imperial shielding
core dynamics composites
exquisite focus
proto radiolic


yttrium
technetium
ruthenium
antimony
polonium

Sound about right to you?
 
As I understand it, the grid works on the following principle:

Let's take the element grid as an example.
Each column in the grid represents a rarity level - the far left column is rarity 1 (Very Common) and the far right column is rarity 5 (Very Rare).
So, for example, in the left column you would have Carbon, Iron, Nickel, Phosphorus, and Sulfur, since those are the five rarity-1 elemental materials. In the column to the right of that, you would
have Chromium, Germanium, Manganese, Vanadium, and Zinc, since those are rarity-2, and so on.

Each row in the grid represents a class of material. Since I don't have a picture of this particular grid in front of me, I'm not sure as to the order that the rows are in, but to my knowledge, they are ordered by element class,
so for example there would be a row for ferrous metals, a row for alkali metals, etc, where each row contains all 5 of the elements in that class in order of rarity.

With those in mind, you end up (at least for elements) with a 5x5 grid of materials, for a total of 25.

Now for the values:

Each grid space is assigned a value depending on where it is relative to what you are looking to trade it for.
Hypothetically, let's say that I'm low on Iron (a common occurrence in the beta), and I have an excess of Tin.
Tin and Iron are in the same row, along with Selenium (and I think Tellurium and Manganese, but I'm not sure on that).
In this case, each element in the row would be assigned a trade ratio based on its relative position to the element I'm looking to get (that being Iron).
Tin occupies slot 4, since it's a rarity-4 element. Selenium is in slot 3, and (assuming that I'm correct) Tellurium and Manganese are in slots 5 and 2, respectively.
Since there is nothing in the grid lower than Iron, all of the other elements in this row are obviously going to be worth more than Iron. When working
inside a single row of the grid, elements in that row are assigned the following values in rarity-1 equivalents:
[1][3][9][27][81]
So, trading 1 Tin (in slot 4) for Iron would net me 27 Iron. Trading a Tellurium would net me 81 Iron, since it's in slot 5.
It also works the other way - if I wanted Tin, and I had Iron, I would need to put forward 27 Iron for 1 Tin.
Things get a bit more complicated for other rows (say, trading Tin for Arsenic or vice-versa), but as far as I could tell, it works basically the same way, except that
for each row you move up or down from the row you are trading for, the price goes up by a factor of 3, as if you were trading for a material 1 rarity higher than you are.

I whipped up the following poorly edited image to illustrate roughly how this works. Of course, this may change when the full update comes out, but this is how it DID work in the beta.
I couldn't find an image of the element grid, so I got one of the manufactured materials grid instead.
Blue numbers indicate how much you would have to put forward of the selected component (Basic Conductors in this case) to get the component with that number on it (so you would have to put 27 Basic Conductors forward to get 1 Heat Exchanger).
Green numbers indicate the opposite - how many Basic Conductors you would get if you sold one of the components with the number on it (so for example, you would get 9 Basic Conductors for 1 Configurable Components).
Let me know if you need additional clarification, but this should do at least a fair job of explaining this system.

Edit: Apparently the forum IMG tag does not like displaying images from Drive in-line, so I've had to format it as a standard link.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1opVbxYnSA2I1VJFPa7Zchk_Jp4veAM2h
 
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As I understand it, the grid works on the following principle:.....

(lots and lots of stuff I already know)

.......this should do at least a fair job of explaining this system.

I'm apparently not asking well - let's try this. Is there a list of the various elements/materials and their rarity? Or a list of all the G5 materials? Obviously it makes the most sense to go hunting for those and I'm guessing the new meta will be where they are and how to find them. (fake numbers here) If I can trade 1 tin for 5 G4, 15 G3, 47 G2 and 192 G1 materials obviously I'm only ever going to search for Tin, right? (again I'm making up that element/values). While this is arguably better from a grind perspective, only needed to search for that one element, it seems this would hurt gameplay even further as there's no reason to gather different things in different places. I'll find the easiest place to get a rare material and just trade for what I want. I suppose that does potentially make the grind less but it's just another example of how stupid the grind is in Elite as now there will be no variety at all. I don't need to find any specific High Grade USS material, I just need any High Grade USS and I can trade for what I really want. So why even have different material types? Wouldn't a better way to find the gathering grind be making things pop far more regularly and consistently?

Make sense what I'm asking? Again I think a list of the G5 minerals, materials and data would be perfect for Pre-3.0 tasks as if I had say 200+ of each I'd be set for engineering for a good while.

~X
 
Ah, I see what you're asking. As for that, Inara (https://inara.cz/galaxy-components/) [note - seems to be offline at the moment, try again in an hour or so] has a list of all of the G5 materials.
The only issue with the scenario you describe (got one G5 material, got them all) is that you can't trade a G5 data sample or material for another G5 in a different row (at least not 1:1, it would be 3:1) as far as I know, I could be wrong. So, you're partially right - it does invalidate the whole searching for materials thing, at least for the most part. Theoretically, you'd only need a few hundred G5 materials from each of the three types, and you'd be set for materials and data for a good while.
Assuming that they don't change that system, and you can find a good reliable source of, say, Tellurium, Core Dynamics Composites, and MEF (maybe ~150-300 each?), you should be set for at least a few ships' worth of mods.
Now, a change they could make to prevent the system from turning into an endless grind for one specific material type would be to restrict material trading to either within each column or within each row - that way trading would be restricted to only materials or data within the same category or rarity, whichever turns out to work better.
This would of course have to be accompanied by a major change to the drop rates of certain materials to ensure that the system does not immediately unbalance in terms of rarity.
It would be nice if they had put some more testing time into the system during the beta, but unfortunately the change to (basically) free upgrades for the purpose of testing the upgrades themselves made such testing basically unwarranted, since all we ever did was exchange Tin and Selenium for Iron. Oh, well, should have, would have, could have, didn't, I suppose.
 
Great file.

I am wondering for PA. Efficient or focused ?��

I suppose it depends on what you're going for.
If you snipe a lot with your PAs, focused is a nice mod, since it gives damage falloff reduction, range, AND shot speed, along with a nice armor-piercing bonus.
On the other hand, if you do as I do, and basically use them as very accurate shotguns, you might want to go with Overcharged if you can afford the heat output. Or, if you're insane (or command a ship that can handle this much heat), go for short range.
Efficiency is nice too - especially for its new +24% damage bonus, along with its already no-downside heat, power, and distributor reduction. In fact, I would say Efficiency would be the best all-around upgrade - just keep in mind that there are far better upgrades if you wish to specialize further.
 
Ah, I see what you're asking. As for that, Inara (https://inara.cz/galaxy-components/) [note - seems to be offline at the moment, try again in an hour or so] has a list of all of the G5 materials.
The only issue with the scenario you describe (got one G5 material, got them all) is that you can't trade a G5 data sample or material for another G5 in a different row (at least not 1:1, it would be 3:1) as far as I know, I could be wrong. So, you're partially right - it does invalidate the whole searching for materials thing, at least for the most part. Theoretically, you'd only need a few hundred G5 materials from each of the three types, and you'd be set for materials and data for a good while.
Assuming that they don't change that system, and you can find a good reliable source of, say, Tellurium, Core Dynamics Composites, and MEF (maybe ~150-300 each?), you should be set for at least a few ships' worth of mods.
Now, a change they could make to prevent the system from turning into an endless grind for one specific material type would be to restrict material trading to either within each column or within each row - that way trading would be restricted to only materials or data within the same category or rarity, whichever turns out to work better.
This would of course have to be accompanied by a major change to the drop rates of certain materials to ensure that the system does not immediately unbalance in terms of rarity.
It would be nice if they had put some more testing time into the system during the beta, but unfortunately the change to (basically) free upgrades for the purpose of testing the upgrades themselves made such testing basically unwarranted, since all we ever did was exchange Tin and Selenium for Iron. Oh, well, should have, would have, could have, didn't, I suppose.

Apparently I took my stupid pills before asking as I use INARA constantly and absolutely feel stupid for not realizing it would sort that way. I hear what you're saying about the row trading, do you know if anyone captured those rows? These are all the things I mean when I ask for the grid of everything. I'm sure someone will come up with a virtual trader app, in fact I hope the guy at ED Engineer adds that to help in planning. Even if they make it so you can only trade in one row, which given Frontier's grind-nature is likely, we'd still only ever need to find those top tier materials then trade for what we really want. The crappiest part is those top tier ones are usually in High Grade USS which are the absolute worst to find (please explain to me how that's even remotely game "play").

As for more time to test this in beta it woulda been nice if they'd just run the beta longer period - wanna bet there will be many new bugs on launch with many old very long term bugs still there? After 3 years playing Elite it's clear to me they do these things for PR reasons and little more. "See, we test, here's a beta - although we'll ignore all but the largest reported bugs that we should have caught anyway".
 
Apparently I took my stupid pills before asking as I use INARA constantly...
Yeah, I feel you, I've done that a few times myself.

...do you know if anyone captured those rows?
I do not, I haven't been able to find any specific information on any of the wikis or forums (or Google Images for that matter), but I'm sure someone screencapped the row charts for the three trader types... it's just making me wish that I did, would've made it a lot easier, I could have just posted them here.
We know the rarities, and the general categorization, but not which rows everything goes into, which is a real pity at this point.

...I'm sure someone will come up with a virtual trader app...
I certainly hope so. If not, I may have to come up with one myself once more data is available on the exact ordering. Unfortunately, I don't think bothering Frontier is going to get anything done, much as I wish that were the case...

...woulda been nice if they'd just run the beta longer...
100% agree on that, really wish they had given it an extra week or two at LEAST, give it time for all of the nasty progression-breaking bugs to come out of the woodwork. As it was, I barely had time to compile my Engineer mod data as it was, I got it done about 11 hours before they shut it down.
I have no doubt that they will have to release several hotfixes after 3.0 comes out, or perhaps even a major follow-up update. Such is the price we pay for 'games as services', I suppose.
 
...I'm sure someone screencapped the row charts for the three trader types....

Well in another example of me not taking my smart pills you made me realize I have video of it from when I was streaming while playing beta! Now the catch is - not only did I only capture (or can find) me going to the material trader (vs. data or minerals) but I captured it in VR. So it's ultra-mega-super-shakey-cam and I faff around quite a bit as it was the first time I'd had a look at it so I didn't exactly get how it worked at first. So you'll need to freeze frame a bit to see the actual data but it's all there in some of the frames

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/229556670

I just realized this while half asleep and won't have time to get back to this for at least a day or so but figured I'd post it none the less, in the event you have time (or can handle not barfing) and want to have a look. I'll be doing that in the next day or so as I'm pretty much done with my pre-3.0 engineering at this point. If you don't get to it before I do I'll post up my results of what I extract from the vomit-comet video above (if you haven't played in VR before realize this is just a function of the way capturing it works, for me in the headset this is all perfectly smooth as your brain/eyes do the "stabilization" for you)

~X
 
...the catch is - not only did I only capture (or can find) me going to the material trader (vs. data or minerals)...

Dang, that's a shame. Unfortunately, the material trader is the one that's kinda easy to figure out without a screencap of the trading screen... but that's additional data, and I'll take what I can get.
Here is what I figured out from the data you provided. The other two sheets will get filled out once I have enough data to do so. I don't think I have a way of displaying dynamic value data on these in Google Sheets, so I (or someone else) will have to whip up an application that does it instead.
 
Dang, that's a shame. Unfortunately, the material trader is the one that's kinda easy to figure out without a screencap of the trading screen... but that's additional data, and I'll take what I can get.
Here is what I figured out from the data you provided. The other two sheets will get filled out once I have enough data to do so. I don't think I have a way of displaying dynamic value data on these in Google Sheets, so I (or someone else) will have to whip up an application that does it instead.

Extremely well done, I'm impressed you could get that from my VR shakey cam without barfing! (if you did I owe ya a keyboard!)

Question - when you list the 'value' does that have to do with the trade levels? So a G5 is (roughly) 3x as valuable as a G4, does that mean it would take 3 G4 to get 1 G5 and vice-versa?

~X
 
Extremely well done, I'm impressed you could get that from my VR shakey cam without barfing! (if you did I owe ya a keyboard!)

It wasn't THAT bad, luckily no replacement keyboard needed ;)

Question - when you list the 'value' does that have to do with the trade levels? So a G5 is (roughly) 3x as valuable as a G4, does that mean it would take 3 G4 to get 1 G5 and vice-versa?

It does indeed, although that's only within that particular row. As mentioned before, there is a penalty in trade value for each row moved away from the source item or target item. I'm not entirely sure how that penalty works yet, but I have a feeling it's another factor of 3 (so a G3 2 rows away from another G3 would be worth 9x less). I'd need to take another look at my data to confirm that behavior.
 
Just a heads-up, Commanders, in light of the release date announcement for Beyond Season 1, I have completed the material trader data chart. It is linked in the initial post of this thread, or you can find it here.
o7!

You would not believe how little data there is for this system out there... I had a hard enough time getting screenshots, let alone any statistical data...
 
Hey Beta testing people, what's with the Data?

Do we get larger storage capacity for them too, and can we trade them?

As far as I know (and this may change), data storage will obey the same rules as standard material storage - each data type will have its own storage capacity, with higher rarity materials having less capacity than lower rarity ones. Not sure on the exact numbers for this yet, it's rumored that material storage will be 500 for Very Common (rarity 1), 400 for Common (rarity 2), etc., so it's possible that data might follow the same rules. I don't usually watch the FDev livestreams, and that's where they usually announce this stuff, so you'd have to check them for any additional information.

As for trading, data will be tradeable via the Material Traders at stations (or more specifically, the Encoded Data Traders), not P2P as far as I know (unfortunately).
 
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