Break through SCBs instantly with modified railguns (Newletter 121)

Everyone......relax.
We don't even know the base chance of a single shot collapsing a shield yet.
It may be low, so no need to start a war over something that may not even be an issue.

There is no indication that there's a die roll involved. You land the railgun shot in the SCB Activating phase (IE: Between that first obvious big blue flash that runs the length of the ship's shield bubble from nose to tern and the point the when the shields start refilling), their shields go pop. As written, they are completely depleted, meaning the ship hit is knocked into the whole loop of waiting out the overloaded generator then rebuilding to 50% capacity.

Let me be clear, I'm not saying big ships should be immortal, nor that there isn't a place for a weapon that serves as a bane of sorts for SCB's, one that rewards a well timed skill-shot. I am saying giving this effect to a weapon this precise and easy to use, however, is massive overkill (45+ seconds of shields down under heavy fire from multiple targets gunning for your power plant with railguns in a big, slow or un-maneuverable ship is a virtual death sentence). Would much rather see the effect be something like "Shields blink off until the SCB completes its refill phase at which point the shields come back on at their refilled strength." Still lets you open up a window to hammer a target, one that (with a enough railguns pointed at it) still has potential to be fatal for probably any ship, but rewards the player that survives that sudden vulnerability with much restored shields that haven't been losing HP due to attrition in the interval they were down. It also keeps SCB's from becoming suicide buttons on large, slow vessels.
 
If you ignore several other big changes, yes, this is crazy and favors HRP, but if we look at the big picture hull tanks are potenitally in big trouble. Missiles will now punish exposed modules and we will have heat beams. Silent running hull tanks are going to have to deal with a lot more heat and if they get hit by missiles their heat sinks, engines, weapons and canopy are going to fail on them. A rail gun FdL isn't very scary when all it's railguns are constantly malfunctioning. Depending on the extent of the damage from missiles and heat from the beams as well as effectiveness of rejuv lasers and any changes being made to hull modifications, shield generators, cells banks, damage from new C4 weapons, etc...not to mention the availability of materials and difficulty in obtaining them for modifications.

In other words. It is far too early to make any kind of prediction let alone raise any kind of alarm. This update isn't going to just nudge the meta one way or another, it's taking a sledge to it, breaking it into 1,000 pieces and throwing them into the air. There is no way to say with any kind of credibility even approaching speculation how all those pieces are going to land, let alone what players will do with them.

Beta will be very interesting and I'll expect a variety of changes to the mods ranging from minor tweaks to huge nerfs or buffs, but prebeta these kinds of discussions, particularly the fear mongering of one proposed, pre-beta weapon are ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that all this twisting is over "PvP"...which makes up what? .1-.2% of all the combat that takes place in Elite. Lets all just settle down.

I have to spread rep around before giving again, you saved me writing up a long post.

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It's great. Brings us to a place where for all intents and purposes the shield you initially bring into a fight is the only one you can count on. After that, it's a combination of luck and skill. This is a good thing. Instead of long, drawn-out battles between ships carrying loads of SCBs, we'll have tense battles of indeterminate length between ships carrying loads of SCBs. Instead of waiting to see who runs out of SCBs first, there will be another layer of psychology where each opponent tries to anticipate when the other will recharge their shields.

Railguns are an ideal weapon for this modification because they require precision and good timing. Combined with the narrow window of opportunity to disrupt the SCB charge, this will make for some interesting reversals of fortune, close saves, and near misses.

And don't assume that HRPs are going to dominate because of this change. Missiles and torpedoes are getting an upgrade, and they're specifically effective on external modules and hardpoints. All those unshielded hull-tanking ships you're so concerned about will be a lot less threatening when you can cripple their weapons, shatter their canopies, or disable their heat-sink launchers without needing to break down their hull. Oh, you say they can just equip ECM and Point Defense? Yes they can! And it'll take up heat-sink launcher slots to do it. So much for silent running. Hey - you know what else generates a lot of heat? That's right - railguns!

Implementation is everything, of course, but all of the changes announced so far have the potential to produce the kinds of dynamic asymmetries that the game needs to keep combat interesting and varied. We're starting to see the beginnings of a decent paper-scissor-rock situation, where nobody can perfectly outfit themselves against one type of build without making themselves vulnerable to another. This is a good thing. Probably!

I'm allowed to rep you though, spot on!
 
I think big shields can sometimes be more important than big guns. Especially vs smaller/faster ships, which arent going to be in your crosshairs most of the time, while constantly hammering your shields (probably from behind). A wing of Cobras can take down a big ship with out this weapon as is. Plus the small ships are going to get a speed buff, which will make SCB's on large ships even more important. Knowing what we know now, I almost see this as introducing weapons a big ship can equip, which greatly slows down smaller ships, or maybe a tractor beam? I think we would hear similar concerns about balance as you would be taking away the biggest advantage a small ship has.

That being said, we dont have exact details on how it will work. Maybe the weapon itself will do zero damage aside from SCB overload, forcing you to make compromises to firepower. Maybe it will take a lot of energy to run or create an insane amount of heat, forcing you to use it sparingly. For all we know there will even be a potential Engineer upgrade to SCB's/shields, which will be able to mitigate the effectiveness of this weapon.

When I first heard about it, I will admit I wasnt too enthusiastic, but it might be a good idea to wait and see how it all mixes up in the pot before jumping to any conclusions. The guys/galls at FD arent idiots, I would very much doubt they would introduce a weapon that unbalances the game. And if they did, they would probably fix it shortly after. So im not too worried.
 
I think big shields can sometimes be more important than big guns. Especially vs smaller/faster ships, which arent going to be in your crosshairs most of the time, while constantly hammering your shields (probably from behind). A wing of Cobras can take down a big ship with out this weapon as is. Plus the small ships are going to get a speed buff, which will make SCB's on large ships even more important. Knowing what we know now, I almost see this as introducing weapons a big ship can equip, which greatly slows down smaller ships, or maybe a tractor beam? I think we would hear similar concerns about balance as you would be taking away the biggest advantage a small ship has.

That being said, we dont have exact details on how it will work. Maybe the weapon itself will do zero damage aside from SCB overload, forcing you to make compromises to firepower. Maybe it will take a lot of energy to run or create an insane amount of heat, forcing you to use it sparingly. For all we know there will even be a potential Engineer upgrade to SCB's/shields, which will be able to mitigate the effectiveness of this weapon.

When I first heard about it, I will admit I wasnt too enthusiastic, but it might be a good idea to wait and see how it all mixes up in the pot before jumping to any conclusions. The guys/galls at FD arent idiots, I would very much doubt they would introduce a weapon that unbalances the game. And if they did, they would probably fix it shortly after. So im not too worried.

If it ends up being a crippled weapon outside of specific circumstances you likely won't see it outside of PvP anyways, since PvE is all about being efficient with your time and most ships can't realistically sacrifice ~25% of their firepower for a specialty weapon. Especially since ordinary weapons are plenty capable of smashing aside NPC shields before their SCBs discharge. It'll end up being a novelty... just like railguns are now. So I guess that's the status quo maintained unless rails suddenly get more ammo which we haven't heard anything about.

Honestly weapon balance as it is now is pretty bad anyway.
 
I think big shields can sometimes be more important than big guns. Especially vs smaller/faster ships, which arent going to be in your crosshairs most of the time, while constantly hammering your shields (probably from behind). A wing of Cobras can take down a big ship with out this weapon as is. Plus the small ships are going to get a speed buff, which will make SCB's on large ships even more important. Knowing what we know now, I almost see this as introducing weapons a big ship can equip, which greatly slows down smaller ships, or maybe a tractor beam? I think we would hear similar concerns about balance as you would be taking away the biggest advantage a small ship has.

That being said, we dont have exact details on how it will work. Maybe the weapon itself will do zero damage aside from SCB overload, forcing you to make compromises to firepower. Maybe it will take a lot of energy to run or create an insane amount of heat, forcing you to use it sparingly. For all we know there will even be a potential Engineer upgrade to SCB's/shields, which will be able to mitigate the effectiveness of this weapon.

When I first heard about it, I will admit I wasnt too enthusiastic, but it might be a good idea to wait and see how it all mixes up in the pot before jumping to any conclusions. The guys/galls at FD arent idiots, I would very much doubt they would introduce a weapon that unbalances the game. And if they did, they would probably fix it shortly after. So im not too worried.

Although one could argue it's already too unbalanced and more varied options will only unbalance things further. In PvP, in my experience, there's usually a few select builds that people develop over time, after experimentation, and they tend to become the standard options for any serious PvPer - ie you want to PvP against other serious, regular PvPers and you will likely be able to predict what builds you're most likely to come across and prepare accordingly with a counter, or at least equivalent build. The problem arises with PvE in the mix, which is in fact the main focus of the game. Too many varied and complicated options (ie build combinations/permutations) and it becomes all but impossible to build to cater for every situation or predict what you'll encounter. Now, that's not necessarily a bad thing mind you as it's certainly a challenge (the NPC builds will be even more varied and less predictable), but imho it broadens the balance gap even further (too much?) between PvE-focused players and PvP-focused players......in an envronment where they co-exist. It's already a death sentence for a PvE player to come across a PvP player who's hell bent on destroying everyone else he/she sees (at least in most scenarios, assuming one doesn't just run or high wake). Changes like this one to interrupt a SCB AND instantly take down any remaining shield strength might be fine in PvP when coupled with other wing tactics like a regen beam, but a PvP player (or wing) against a PvE build? A PvP player can build a configuration suited to PvP and in the knowledge that most PvE-focused or NPC builds just can't match it (ie he/she is relatively safe) - a PvE player has no such certainty/confidence as NPC builds will be more unpredictable than now and they'll continue to have no chance against a serious PvP player (if not made worse). I do like the variety in builds the Engineers update will bring, just not convinced yet that it works in an environment within which both PvP and PvE co-exist. At the very least it will further complicate the balancing merry-go-round, but let's see what beta shows us.
 
Hope we can get these weapons in beta directly for testing purpose and don't need to grind several days or even weeks to get hands on those.

100% agree, have every conceivable engineered weapon and module etc available at outfitting for those to test the insane amounts of new combinations of everything. Let them test without having to find and make everything. Then those who also want to search out engineers and test them will do also, but at least everything will get a healthy dose of testing.
 
If it ends up being a crippled weapon outside of specific circumstances you likely won't see it outside of PvP anyways, since PvE is all about being efficient with your time and most ships can't realistically sacrifice ~25% of their firepower for a specialty weapon.
Also, it is not difficult to take down the shield of NPCs when they fire a cell since they fire it generally very/too late.
The only time I miss to take down the shield is because I tried to save some ammo, or wasn't fighting at 100%...

So as you said, unless NPCs AI get a REAL buff and behave as dangerously as skilled players, this new railgun sounds definitely PvP only with little use for PvE.

Now, as others pointed out, if used by NPCs (which have the ability to surrealistically nail all shots of fixed weapon), this would get ridiculously efficient. Yesterday I witnessed a T-9 NPC (no escort) hammering a pirate Viper NPC with railguns non stop... :-/
 
I was expecting variety with ship builds, not a push for more HRPs, Reactive and B rated modules.

Anyway, it sounds like open season for SCB offenders in RESs and CZs.
 
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Also, it is not difficult to take down the shield of NPCs when they fire a cell since they fire it generally very/too late.
The only time I miss to take down the shield is because I tried to save some ammo, or wasn't fighting at 100%...

So as you said, unless NPCs AI get a REAL buff and behave as dangerously as skilled players, this new railgun sounds definitely PvP only with little use for PvE.

Now, as others pointed out, if used by NPCs (which have the ability to surrealistically nail all shots of fixed weapon), this would get ridiculously efficient. Yesterday I witnessed a T-9 NPC (no escort) hammering a pirate Viper NPC with railguns non stop... :-/

To be fair thats probably the easiest thing to fix out of the lot, I suspect the AI currently is set to use SCB's at a time where you can ignore them unless you did something daft. I don't think that was accidental I think people would find combat frustrating if the middle range ships had to suffer through 4 charges or so on pirate condas. I doubt i'd notice in a big ship but big ships aren't the only ones people are flying and making combat take 3x as long would require reward rebalances.

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This is the final nail in the Cutter's coffin.

Actually its a nail in the coffin of SCB's in their current incarnation for PvP, It would still have the strongest shielding you just wouldn't run any SCBs to go with it. All 3 of the big ships would be heavily effected by this so I can't really see it making it through beta in its current incarnation, i expect it will get changed to a damage multiplier when the target is using a SCB to give you more oomph to punch through as its current setup is too hard counter.
 
Actually its a nail in the coffin of SCB's in their current incarnation for PvP, It would still have the strongest shielding you just wouldn't run any SCBs to go with it. All 3 of the big ships would be heavily effected by this so I can't really see it making it through beta in its current incarnation, i expect it will get changed to a damage multiplier when the target is using a SCB to give you more oomph to punch through as its current setup is too hard counter.

I have seen nothing in the newsletters that suggest a weapon to counter stealth builds so far, and since the stealth ships will only have more weapons against shields, the meta is gonna remain the same, but even more biased towards stealths.

Yes, it is bad for all the big ships, but it is the worst for the Cutter as its shields are the only thing its good at.
The thing is the Cutter is a very bad ship, poor damage and maneuverability, without shields, is nothing, just an extremely expensive target with very weak PP and not enough slots to fit good armor, oh I also read a buff to missiles and torpedoes to be more effective against modules, well GG.

Its either playing solo or jumping out as soon as they see someone, and rightfully so. The stealth guy doesn't risk more than a few hundred K, whats the incentive for the guy in the big ship to stay and risk such a massive rebuy?
 
I have seen nothing in the newsletters that suggest a weapon to counter stealth builds so far, and since the stealth ships will only have more weapons against shields, the meta is gonna remain the same, but even more biased towards stealths.

Well.. you haven't seen this then?

Edit: No it doesn't say specifically that it heats the target up, but still... sounds hot.

6ed320306920733c430b8a57293f9d08f4245a9e.jpg
 
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If you are using an scb, your shields are almost down anyway. This mod doesn't seem to overpowered, as there is already a good chance of rails collapsing weak shields.
 
Well.. you haven't seen this then?

Edit: No it doesn't say specifically that it heats the target up, but still... sounds hot.

http://hosting.zaonce.net/elite/new.../6ed320306920733c430b8a57293f9d08f4245a9e.jpg


Basically it turns MCs into Rail Guns/PAs by giving them Thermal damage, in addition to Kinetic. Full MC ships will be even more viable than they are now, though at a disadvantage against Hull tanked vessels. I'm assuming the damage is partially split.
 
The problem with this weapon modification is two-fold:

a) Given the right circumstances, it does infinite shield damage. It does no longer matter how strong the shield of the target is, it is destroyed by a single hit.
b) An attacker who brings this weapon into battle will likely use it not just when the target ignites a shield cell. Just like railguns right now, it'll be a mainstay in their arsenal, so they will fire the modified railgun anyway. It's not really a matter of getting the timing right - they are already firing on you, then you activate the shield cell and the only way to prevent an instant shield drop is if they miss all their shots during the cell activation.

In my opinion, just the neutralizing of the shield cell regeneration effect is a very, very powerful ability, this weapon mod doesn't need anything beyond that to be an extremely tantalizing option.

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If you are using an scb, your shields are almost down anyway.

This is simply not true. A large ship with a big shield won't wait till the last moment, they may fire when just a single ring has been lost, or even earlier.

And re your anyway: if the shields would always be almost down anyway, this weapon mod wouldn't need infinite shield damage anyway. So this is not really an useful argument in favour of infinite shield damage.
 
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