Broken Promises, A Collection

[DefiledDragon]

ED has it's issues, no doubt. I for one am quite vocal about some of them, typically the ones that affect me the most, but nevertheless I don't shy away from criticising the game where I feel it's due.

Saying that, as somebody has already pointed out there likely isn't a publisher in the world that would back a project of this magnitude. Even with the planned "seasons" retailing at full price once a year or however often they're scheduled, it doesn't even begin to approach the disgusting money grabbing that goes on in the industry today and if we wound the clock back 2 years I would still back ED in beta and I would still buy Horizons, despite it not adding that much for the money.

The space "sim" genre has always been a favourite of mine and I've played most of them from FE2 to freelancer, EVE and the X series. The last game in the X series was an absolute catastrophe and were it not for ED I don't think we would have seen another space "sim" again. I'm not including Star Citizen as it's vaporware as far as I'm concerned.

Despite my moans and groans about the instancing, unbalanced rewards, meaningless ranks and influence etc... I'm very happy that David Braben decided to resurrect the series and in all honesty I'm delighted with the way it's turned out so far. Yes, it could be "better", but I think what we have right now is pretty awesome and if the 10 year vision implements even half of what DB has promised I'll be over the moon and I'm very much looking forward to seeing how things develop over the next couple of years.

 

[ffr]

I think that this game was a rush job to hit the deadline, to ensure that the main Kickstarter pledge was fulfilled

The game didn't hit the deadline. The deadline was March 2014 and the game missed it by nine months, releasing in Dec 2014. And even then, that release was of only a subset of the game that Braben had promised, despite his claim at the time that the release was "complete".

Armour, you say you didn't expect the promised features to be in the first release. Let me ask you, where on the Kickstarter pitch here https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous/description is ANY indication from Braben that the features he's advertising for the game called Elite Dangerous are NOT to be in the game called Elite Dangerous for which he is raising money on that same page and the game called Elite Dangerous which he's saying is estimated delivery March 2014 on that same page.

 

[Bambi]

The dev diaries, the KS promises, the DDFs, those are the ten year plan overview. Were you shocked and surprised to see Wings and Horizons? Were you shocked when you found out you had to pay for Horizons? If the answer is yes, then you need to go watch those diaries and read the KS and DDF stuff, because they were in there.

I'd like to see your source for these things being a "ten year plan". Because what they said, explicitly, is that some things will not be in at first, they were very clear that those were landing on planets, walking around inside your ship, flying capital ships, that kind of thing. They didn't say that everything would be this way, only a select few things.

Without a source you have basically an unreasonable assumption. Which is to say, nothing.

 

[Seboss]

it was only really prior to release that the reality dropped, like the single player game.

Yeah. I was madly enamoured with the game back then - or rather, the dream - so I was fairly supportive to FDev about this particular issue. In retrospect, not so much. Knowing everything we now know about the game design, network/server architecture etc, it's pretty obvious an offline mode could *never* offer a decent experience, and now I believe the devs knew all along. Oh I'm sure they toyed around an offline mode at some point, but I'm also sure they quickly realized they would have to build an entirely different game to offer enjoyable solo offline gameplay, and that the line was drawn much earlier in development that the late announcement led to believe.

 

[ffr]

The dev diaries, the KS promises, the DDFs, those are the ten year plan overview.

Total fabrication. There's no mention of a ten year plan in the dev diaries, KS pitch and DDF documents.

Funny how people love to point out what's not ingame yet, yet they totally miss that all of that was offered as being in the FINAL game, which is expected to take up to 10 years to be complete.

More fabrication. Frontier started putting about the ten-year plan story only well after it failed to deliver on the one-year plan for development of the first version of the game.

 

[Fire70]

I just want to say that Frontier is *not* immune to criticism or judgment until their 10 year plan is done or they declare themselves done with the game or any other future event that may or may not happen.

The moment they start charging money for a product they are open to being judged on the current state of that product.

It's important for us to remember that yes, there are still several years of updates to come and we should keep our expectations in check, but routinely looking at where the game is now and where it appears to be heading is healthy. If nothing else it gives us topics for discussion, like this thread, where we can talk about how thigs change and whether those changes have been positive.

This thread also serves to help remind Frontier which features we are still most excited for, or which changes we do and don't like.

On a slightly less related note, Star Citizen is still selling more promises than content. They'll run into threads just like this one, and as a matter of fact they already have. That community *also* has people who insist that CIG should be immune to criticism until they release the complete and finished game, but just like it does here, that attitude does more harm than good.

It seems many feel just because FD have said they have a 10 year plan for the game then we should just sit back and wait for 10 years before commenting on it?? Really???

This forum never ceased to amaze me..

You are totally right FD collect money so they collect the good and the bad that comes with that money..

 

[CaptainKremmen]

With an aggressive first post kicking off this thread, my suspicion is that it's primarily a vehicle for drama llama.

TODO: Tier 2 - Design Discussion Disasters

I can't wait for you to repackage the DDA by adding phrases like, "as a final insult". That really helps foster an environment for constructive criticism.


For those who aren't aware, and want to read the DDA topics in their original form, they are here...

Design Discussion Archive



Also, I remembered a DDA comment from Mike Evans. And actually found it...

Good thing we never actually said that the DDA is a list of features that will be in the release of the game then.

 

[Armour]

Stuff

I have long since given up arguing with armchair lawyers on the internet and playing games of link tennis. It's not worth the effort IMO. But you have at it.

As for the missed release date - if Star Citizen backers can claim that releasing a module to a subset of backers = RSI keeping their promise, then the ED Alpha that was released late in 2013 means that this game beat it's release deadline by at least 3 months! Well done Frontier!

 

[Bambi]

Having been on the other side of this discussion (meaning, part of a team developing software) most of the original ideas listed in the post sound like terrible ideas once implemented. In imagination they really sound great, I mean who doesn't love detailed damage of every spacecraft?

I know who.

Artists.

It takes a massive amount of time to build destruction models which instead has been invested in other things, which is very apparent. The design team is really on top of their UIs and ship designs.

Also some of the features that haven't been implemented on your list, have been in some ways without the depth that you wanted. Often times this is because the actual model imagined would be seen as tedious or difficult to implement properly without errors. There are definitely certain things, like how Wings were implemented, that have already failed but because of a high demand were implemented regardless.

The real issue here is they spoke too much without properly understanding what it'd mean to the end consumer. We call this setting the bar too high, which the way the original dev diaries read it sounds more like they are thinking of how it COULD be implemented instead of how it WILL be implemented. It could be an amazing thing, but in reality their monetary allotment will not allow it.

They don't sound terrible to me. You sound like you're trying to justify it because "it wouldn't have been good anyway" which is a non-reason. The only thing that sounds remotely like overreaching is damage states for each ship. But they were already building the interiors of all the ships to begin with, they had already committed to this level of detail. So what you're saying is it was just really bad planning, not allocating the proper resources to get the job done? Does that justify it more, to you? Are you listening to yourself here?

Call it setting the bar too high or whatever, but that's what they did, and now they're in the soup. That is not a get out of jail free card. Are you listening to yourself again?

A lot of the things really are well within the capabilities of systems they already have implemented, or requires tweaking of other existing systems. You sound like a shill to be honest.

 

[Seboss]

They made hard choices and they're still developing and adding things, I doubt there's a hard 'ten year plan' more like a 'ten year wish list' based on sales. They already admitted as much.

Exactly. I hope nobody really thinks Braben has some Hari Seldon-esque master plan laid out in his lair or anything. FDev will just try to make its best out of the revenue of the game, and to find ways to invigorate revenue for the next year. And in this regard, the next big shiny feature that will bring new players to the game will always be the priority. Not pleasing the old grumps that have already been wrung dry, or fulfilling years old "promises".

 

[Sim Maker]

In the meanwhile, people could try star citizen. I hear that's on time and feature complete

Sir, may I trouble you for last weekends lottery numbers? From when you speak, I will place them when I get there. Thanks in advance from the distant past.

 

[Bambi]

With an aggressive first post kicking off this thread, my suspicion is that it's primarily a vehicle for drama llama.

I can't wait for you to repackage the DDA by adding phrases like, "as a final insult". That really helps foster an environment for constructive criticism.

Just because you feel hurt, doesn't make it aggressive. It's straight quotes from the devs mouths. And someone lying to you is insulting. If you perceive that as some kind of aggression that says something about you doesn't it? We're paying customers here.

Also, I remembered a DDA comment from Mike Evans. And actually found it...

That's why it's 2 tiers lower than things that were on the kickstarter page.

 

[maddog0606]

They were clear about some things coming later, such as planets, walking around etc. None of the things here fell under that.

Do you develop software for a living?

Usually a group of managers/engineers/marketing people get together to make a software project. They put stuff into the plan they all know they can do.

Marketing says it can be done NOW. Managers say it can be done soon. Engineers say it can be done, not all at once, some of the hard stuff is going to take time, but we can make it look good so that the majority of the customers will like it.

Marketing takes the lead on getting the info out to the customers. Managers try to reign in Marketing. And the Engineers get screwed by both of em. Because the Engineers were closest on how long it would take. If anyone believed Marketing when it comes to computer games you deserve what you get.

I did not believe the hype about this game. I was not in the kickstarter process. I was not a beta tester (I get enough of that at work). I knew what I was buying and I am satisfied with what I got.

 

[Cosmos]

It's funny, I would have agreed with the OP and you six months ago, but I realised that considering the budget we're on, we're nowhere even close to enough to get everything in the DDF, which would requires sums more like Star Citizen's.

They made hard choices and they're still developing and adding things, I doubt there's a hard 'ten year plan' more like a 'ten year wish list' based on sales. They already admitted as much saying they had different plans depending on various sales projections. I think we're somewhere in the 'mid scenario' in the report.

So they're smart and have made not one plan but three based on sales and feedback and the realities of building the game. They want what we want, an awesome flagship title that provides money. Just how we get there depends on sales.

Nice we're on the opposite side of the argument again Cosmos, it's like the old days!

The old days..

I think people have gotten me wrong on this thread. I quite like Horizons and I think its a really positive step and I'm more optimistic for the game than I have ever been since it was released. I even spent quite a bit of time explaining to people bemoaning the pricing model how wrong they had it (ED working out optionally a 1/3 the cost of EvE etc). I certainly didn't agree with people vote bombing the game. As it stands I'm happy to recommend ED these days and I think FD are doing a much better job of communicating and engaging the player base than they ever have.

This doesn't mean that I won't raise criticisms when I feel its fair to do so. Some of the points in the OP are actually quite important to discuss because if there is one thing that people raise a lot its the game lacking depth and looking back at what was invisaged and what was delivered its painfully obvious what would make the game better and address these concerns.

I'm also realistic about what resources there are to develop the game although looking at that financial forecast FD have smashed the bull scenario by quite a bit. Another thing that troubles me is what you say about the realities of making a game. If FD didn't understand these in the first place then something is surely off? They are inf act one of the leading independent game developers in the UK. If they didn't know what was possible or not then who would?

 

[ffr]

The real issue here is they spoke too much without properly understanding what it'd mean to the end consumer.

"Looking at all the high quality games we at Frontier have produced, from RollerCoaster Tycoon 3 to Kinectimals to LostWinds to Disneyland Adventures, I think the risk of non-delivery is small. We already have a large team who are very experienced at delivering complicated projects, and the key high-risk components (like networking) are already in place. If necessary then we will delay the release beyond March 2014, but I do not believe we will need to do so."
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous/description

I think Frontier's problem was that half way through KS funding campaign, they realised it was not going to meet the target. And as backers discovered afterwards, that would have been a double catastrophe because the company was secretly planning a stockmarket float on the back of the KS project. So they started piling on promised features that they could never hope to deliver for the money. The real problem then was that they didn't have the guts to admit to backers that they were going be unable to deliver the promised game.

 

[Seboss]

I'm also realistic about what resources there are to develop the game although looking at that financial forecast FD have smashed the bull scenario by quite a bit. Another thing that troubles me is what you say about the realities of making a game. If FD didn't understand these in the first place then something is surely off? They are inf act one of the leading independent game developers in the UK. If they didn't know what was possible or not then who would?

To be fair, ED is their first truly online game, and in my experience developers with not much experience of large-scale network applications widely underestimate the difficulty of the task.

 

[ffr]

To be fair, ED is their first truly online game, and in my experience developers with not much experience of large-scale network applications widely underestimate the difficulty of the task.

David Braben at the start of KS fundraising: "the key high-risk components (like networking) are already in place."
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...us/description

 

[Seboss]

The real problem then was that they didn't have the guts to admit to backers that they were going be unable to deliver the promised game.

If they did, do you think there would be any game today? Would Frontier Development still be a thing? Of course we were bluffed, ED success will provide work for hundred of people for years to come, both directly or indirectly. And last time I checked, it was still a pretty fun yet incomplete game.

 

[CGI_Artist]

The Braben will not let us down.

Have faith in The Braben.

The Braben will not let us down.

I've been waiting for this a long time. FD is blazing new territory in a genre long neglected. David and Ian's work in 1984 was more than new territory, it was amazingly amazing. My first post was one of concern and the responses I got in that thread gave me the reassurance I needed.
Maybe I just post that: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=6126 Some of the images are broken now...

Frontier Developments is committed to this, and they're still hiring. Although not everything turned out the way we'd hoped, let's have faith it'll be better.

 

[Cosmos]

To be fair, ED is their first truly online game, and in my experience developers with not much experience of large-scale network applications widely underestimate the difficulty of the task.

I do agree with you here I think the networking element of the game is a complex beast and I worried for a time they wouldn't master it. Pleased to see it get much better and form a functional part of the game.