C&P Refinement suggestion.

[Incandescence]

Strap in guys, its a bit of a long post!

As we all know the new C&P is...well honestly a bit of a mess.
The previous system didn't stop grief, but also didnt do much in terms of adding to it, beside the occasional friendly fire, and needing to warp in and out of the system.

Now we've got a whole new folder on our hands, but now not only does not deter any potential Grief/Ganking it only adds more to the players actually abiding the rules.
For exmaple:
You go to a thargoid attacked station, forget to request clearance, get fined, and cant access the passenger lounge(and you have to undock go to the rescue ship and clear it there),nor can you clear the fine inside, or you brush into a stubborn npc while docking and get a meaningless 200cr fine.
This just adds an unnecessary mouse click , that adds zero gameplay value, and does not address the real issue.

And Real Issue is that gankers and griefers and whatever you want to call them don't value credits, so issuing even global bounties won't do anything, nor will adding a bigger bounty for murder, there needs to be one more reason not be a criminal other than "This number on top of your head is now a bit bigger)
The issue is the "high security" systems are the same as any other.

What should have been done instead:

High security systems are HIGH meaning there are ATR and patrols flying around always, and if you get intredicted a warning goes off your ship and you immediately have response of ATR with more than just guns, that make that kind of ganking near suicide, especially in starter systems.

Hell, we've been delivering thargoid tech for years now, why can't the ATR have some Form of a shutdown field that only affects weapons or shields?

That can be easily tested and scaled down for lower security systems, with low security having only the Standard patrols responding, and medium having lower size ATR squads with lower tech.

As for dealing with the player mechanics as a result.

and we can use the Notoriety(or infamy as i prefer to call it, yes i know it means the same thing ) mechanic to use.



Players with high enough infamy will be shunned and have their pilots federation license revoked, making them pilots federation outlaws/outcasts.
This would require them to use a masking module to fly in regular space that spoofs their ID, and use the anonymous protocol in stations, prices should also be raised for any module or commodity while in this state, as naturally when you don't know who you're selling to, stations should raise rates for said player as a result.

**To reverse this Players would need to turn themselves in, pay any and all fines they have, and then pherhaps do missions for the pilots federation, raising their reputation back slowly, untill they get their PF license officially reinstated, at special Re-education centers.
A play would need to do this every time their Infamy Went above the tolerance threshold (for gameplay purposes)**

Anarchy systems should become Hotspots, where these players can set home bases and make their own rules.
Also, black market rates should be increased 50x times at least to justify any pirating of. Any sort to be worth anyone's time.

Anarchy should have very high paying black markets, and whole economies based off of black market goods, attracting even regular traders to seek out and dare make tens of millions of trading very risky illicit goods, as well as dealing with real commander pirates, as well as highly dangerous NPC pirates.

To compliment this , An activity hot map filter should be added to the galaxy map, showing where large concentrations of commanders are located approximately, this should only work if the systems in question have been explored, or are known by the player, as to avoid finding or ganking deep space explorers, this shouldn't be hard to implement as stations log any commanders arrival regardless, i imagine this looking like the PP bubble filter in the galaxy map, except this one will have Color dependent on Density of commanders per LY or so.

The offending players bounty should be the value of the destroyed ship.
Once the offending player has been killed, or has cleared his bounty on his own volition, either by self destruction, getting killed by someone else, or turning himself in, the full, or partial amount of the money will go to the victim, FROM the offending players bank, if the amount is available.
Anyone claiming the bounty should will be compensated as usual.

Also When using anonymous protocol, being scanned would have the risk of being detected, the higher the system security the higher the chance of being "unmasked" by system authority vessels, upon detection station will proceed to fire warning shots destroying the players shield generator, and or. Modules and dropping their health down to a certain percentage.
If the warning is not heeded,and the player doesn't leave the area station will destroy its target.
Also, if player commits ANY violation once Unsmaked the station will immediately fire to kill regardless if the time to remove oneself from the area or not.

Same for megaships, but as those usually have way less defense they would become way more important to pirates.

A few more points on How The Infamy scale would work (in the way i see it)

Once first level of infamy is gained, there is a generated sphere of threat awareness around the players location, triggering a warning broadcast to all stations and systems within an x Ly radius, performing a crime anywhere within this sphere centers it back on the Player immediately, as for using any outposts or stations without the anon protocol will do the same.
The higher the infamy the more this sphere increase up until a threshold

Once a high enough infamy is reached federation license is revoked, once this happens a strong wing of NPC bounty hunters are dispatched ONCE trying to subdue the player, if they are successful, all damages done by the player credits (partial or full) wise will be removed from the players account and given to the victims.
If not, the player stays an outlaw until he turns himself in, or gets killed.


Also, the players location will be available to nearby bounty hunter players who have a special module equipped (wink wink) that will show any players with a high infamy and high bounty and their approximate location, also, a bonus bounty will be issued in addition to the bounty the pilot accumulated thus far.

This will make an outlaw play style actually work, as right now, pilots federation giving out licenses to pilots that murder their own employees, makes nos ense.

Also, infamy will only raise when killing a HUMAN players, killing NPCs, will only instate local bounty, for game play purposes, as it's just NPCs, and really who cares?
This bounty will still instate anonymous protocol, but only in said system, like it works right now.
Or, this can be played around with, eg: power playe NPC killing will raise a faction wide awareness, and not a pilots federation, making all stations of said superpower hate you, requiring anon mode.
Since you already have the HOSTILE warning on the HUD when in an opposing factions system.

As for hot ships/Modules.
Im not sure this is needed, all bounties should simply be commander wise.
That or Ships should not turn HOT from getting fines, especially from miniscule fines like 200cr, again it adds no gameplay value and hurts clean players way more than actual outlaws.

Also tiny refinements that would improve QOL Significantly:
Burning Stations should not issue any fines of any sort,they are on fire, i doubt loitering will be a problem in a station that you can sit undocked at for more than 10 seconds without boiling, also, station bulkheads should close(if they can) and requesting emergency docking will open them briefly.

Anonymous Access should not be triggered by 200cr fines,or any fines at all. it adds an unnecessary mouse click that adds 0 gameplay value, it should only be issued on BOUNTIES.

Thats about it, i for sure missed some things as the C&P is not a simple thing anymore.
Poke me at what you think!
Cheers![cool][cool]

 

[Braandlin]

Strap in guys, its a bit of a long post!

As we all know the new C&P is...well honestly a bit of a mess.

Stopped reading at this point. You have a presumption that we all agree with you and think C&P is a bit of a mess. Which means that I'm unlikely to agree with much of what you post as a 'solution'.

If you are going to post about a 'fix' to a 'problem' you are going to get far more support if you define the problem in the first place.

 

[Marra Morgan]

Stopped reading at this point. You have a presumption that we all agree with you and think C&P is a bit of a mess. Which means that I'm unlikely to agree with much of what you post as a 'solution'.

If you are going to post about a 'fix' to a 'problem' you are going to get far more support if you define the problem in the first place.

Well said. I got a little bit further, but stopped after it was obvious the OP hasn't spent any time on the other side of the law.

If you want propose changes to C&P, please try to understand it from every perspective - spend a week or two playing as a pirate, smuggler or terrorist and use your experience to present a solution that isn't going to render a playstyle nonviable.

 

[StiTch]

You're correct that C&P is a mess.

It will however continue to be a mess as long as players insist in "burn dah griff0rz" as the basis for it - because such suggestions inevitably fail to actually hamper "griefing" as you have already discovered, and simply lead to a game full of frustration for anyone but a super-duper-clean-shiny-white-knight (and even then, they still find themselves on the wrong side of the law - again as you have discovered).

Find a solution that allows a broad range of playstyles, while introducing engaging consequence for criminals without shutting their game down, and we can talk.

 

[Jaylem]

You're correct that C&P is a mess.

It will however continue to be a mess as long as players insist in "burn dah griff0rz" as the basis for it - because such suggestions inevitably fail to actually hamper "griefing" as you have already discovered, and simply lead to a game full of frustration for anyone but a super-duper-clean-shiny-white-knight (and even then, they still find themselves on the wrong side of the law - again as you have discovered).

Find a solution that allows a broad range of playstyles, while introducing engaging consequence for criminals without shutting their game down, and we can talk.

Aye, as has been stated by numerous others. to just Buff the C&P as a whole would be unfair to 'genuine' criminal players (pirate's, smugglers etc) In fact, we need changes that benefit these roles more such as a black market/ smuggling mission bonus with high notoriety/ bounties.

To keep it more on the fair side, whilst addressing the No.1 reason people mention anything about C&P being Ganking, a separate system would need to be devised strictly for PvP Ganking. something harsh as a deterrent. like killing X number of players a day will result in a permanent notoriety state until destruction. being in a wing will drastically punish all members present (to prevent the cowardly Gangbang tactic). I'd also like to see said players advertised on Galmap and locked out of solo/private play until destruction. coupled with the raise of the player bounty cap (2M is below sad, I wouldn't risk a sidewinder for that filth )

In doing so not only would we be rid of gankers whilst keeping the genuine crims safe, but also providing an incentive for PvPers to get some fun out dishing some well deserved, actual justice!!

 

[StiTch]

to just Buff the C&P as a whole would be unfair to 'genuine' criminal players

I thank you for your support, but this is really the core of the issue...there cannot be a constructive consensus as long as different players are trying to establish who are "legitimate" criminals.

The only "criminals" that are not, uh, legitimate are cheaters - those that use network cheating tools, those that force quit the game to CL, etc. etc.

Otherwise, all playstyles are intended to exist. What the game therefore needs is a C/P system somewhat akin to real life, that scales with the crime - as well as providing engaging ways to progress as a criminal, providing risk and consequence are looming over you. Risk and reward, my friend.


While everyone is sat here bickering about gr1ff0rz, I still cannot fathom why bounties are still effectively "one punishment fits all" - if you have a bounty, you are a criminal, and you have x and y facilities removed from you. You tap someone coming into the mailslot and oh boy, prepare to be handled like a perp.

If you nip someone coming into the mail slot, you should get a tiny bounty, and a fine in the post to remove it. Don't pay it, get a bigger fine, etc.

If you steal something, you receive a smallish bounty, you are chased down and ordered to pay a large fine and compensation on the spot.

If you murder someone, prepare to become wanted.

You are a mass murderer, then prepare to be very wanted - with a bounty visible and collectable to other players - and all non-anarchy systems will seek to destroy you, if they can find out who you are (hello some real stealth mechanics plox?)


...Even Skyrim manages the above. If I steal a sweetroll and am not noticed, nada happens. If I am noticed, I get the odd comment that I am recognised from somewhere. If I kill a man, the guards go for me for the arrest. If I have a big enough bounty, they don't even bother with the arrest, and just go to stick me through.

 

[m0rl0ck]

This sounds to me like the same sort of complication that made the old system such a pita.

 

[Incandescence]

Stopped reading at this point. You have a presumption that we all agree with you and think C&P is a bit of a mess. Which means that I'm unlikely to agree with much of what you post as a 'solution'.

If you are going to post about a 'fix' to a 'problem' you are going to get far more support if you define the problem in the first place.

and if you'd have read the post you'd see i went on to describe exactly that, but i see toxicity isnt only bound ingame.
otherwise why even bother to reply if youre not gonna add anything constructive, besides saying "lel tldr didnt read cause i disagree with you" might aswell never replied in the first place.

but sheesh, way to be an jerk about it!
its a suggestion, instead of telling me your pointless opinion, couldve read it and actually gave feedback, but i guess having a superiority complex is higher on your list.

 

[Incandescence]

Well said. I got a little bit further, but stopped after it was obvious the OP hasn't spent any time on the other side of the law.

If you want propose changes to C&P, please try to understand it from every perspective - spend a week or two playing as a pirate, smuggler or terrorist and use your experience to present a solution that isn't going to render a playstyle nonviable.

and what made you assume that? based on two lines you have read?
I have spent plenty on the other side, PP gameplay and otherwise, and the issue isnt griefing its the way the new C&P punishes regular players while just making everything cumbersome.
it doesnt fix what its intented to do, and i think frontier missed on an opportunity to add actual gameplay into this, which i also went on to describe.

but sure go ahead, assumptions sure add to the debate

 

[Incandescence]

You're correct that C&P is a mess.

It will however continue to be a mess as long as players insist in "burn dah griff0rz" as the basis for it - because such suggestions inevitably fail to actually hamper "griefing" as you have already discovered, and simply lead to a game full of frustration for anyone but a super-duper-clean-shiny-white-knight (and even then, they still find themselves on the wrong side of the law - again as you have discovered).

Find a solution that allows a broad range of playstyles, while introducing engaging consequence for criminals without shutting their game down, and we can talk.

Adding a solution to multiple playstyles is what i tried to do, i dont understand you people, youre too lazy to read, but not too lazy to leave a comment?

 

[Braandlin]

Strap in guys, its a bit of a long post!

As we all know the new C&P is...well honestly a bit of a mess.
The previous system didn't stop grief, but also didnt do much in terms of adding to it, beside the occasional friendly fire, and needing to warp in and out of the system.

Now we've got a whole new folder on our hands, but now not only does not deter any potential Grief/Ganking it only adds more to the players actually abiding the rules.
For exmaple:
You go to a thargoid attacked station, forget to request clearance, get fined, and cant access the passenger lounge(and you have to undock go to the rescue ship and clear it there),nor can you clear the fine inside, or you brush into a stubborn npc while docking and get a meaningless 200cr fine.
This just adds an unnecessary mouse click , that adds zero gameplay value, and does not address the real issue.

And Real Issue is that gankers and griefers and whatever you want to call them don't value credits, so issuing even global bounties won't do anything, nor will adding a bigger bounty for murder, there needs to be one more reason not be a criminal other than "This number on top of your head is now a bit bigger)
The issue is the "high security" systems are the same as any other.

What should have been done instead:

High security systems are HIGH meaning there are ATR and patrols flying around always, and if you get intredicted a warning goes off your ship and you immediately have response of ATR with more than just guns, that make that kind of ganking near suicide, especially in starter systems.

Hell, we've been delivering thargoid tech for years now, why can't the ATR have some Form of a shutdown field that only affects weapons or shields?

That can be easily tested and scaled down for lower security systems, with low security having only the Standard patrols responding, and medium having lower size ATR squads with lower tech.

As for dealing with the player mechanics as a result.

and we can use the Notoriety(or infamy as i prefer to call it, yes i know it means the same thing ) mechanic to use.



Players with high enough infamy will be shunned and have their pilots federation license revoked, making them pilots federation outlaws/outcasts.
This would require them to use a masking module to fly in regular space that spoofs their ID, and use the anonymous protocol in stations, prices should also be raised for any module or commodity while in this state, as naturally when you don't know who you're selling to, stations should raise rates for said player as a result.

**To reverse this Players would need to turn themselves in, pay any and all fines they have, and then pherhaps do missions for the pilots federation, raising their reputation back slowly, untill they get their PF license officially reinstated, at special Re-education centers.
A play would need to do this every time their Infamy Went above the tolerance threshold (for gameplay purposes)**

Anarchy systems should become Hotspots, where these players can set home bases and make their own rules.
Also, black market rates should be increased 50x times at least to justify any pirating of. Any sort to be worth anyone's time.

Anarchy should have very high paying black markets, and whole economies based off of black market goods, attracting even regular traders to seek out and dare make tens of millions of trading very risky illicit goods, as well as dealing with real commander pirates, as well as highly dangerous NPC pirates.

To compliment this , An activity hot map filter should be added to the galaxy map, showing where large concentrations of commanders are located approximately, this should only work if the systems in question have been explored, or are known by the player, as to avoid finding or ganking deep space explorers, this shouldn't be hard to implement as stations log any commanders arrival regardless, i imagine this looking like the PP bubble filter in the galaxy map, except this one will have Color dependent on Density of commanders per LY or so.

The offending players bounty should be the value of the destroyed ship.
Once the offending player has been killed, or has cleared his bounty on his own volition, either by self destruction, getting killed by someone else, or turning himself in, the full, or partial amount of the money will go to the victim, FROM the offending players bank, if the amount is available.
Anyone claiming the bounty should will be compensated as usual.

Also When using anonymous protocol, being scanned would have the risk of being detected, the higher the system security the higher the chance of being "unmasked" by system authority vessels, upon detection station will proceed to fire warning shots destroying the players shield generator, and or. Modules and dropping their health down to a certain percentage.
If the warning is not heeded,and the player doesn't leave the area station will destroy its target.
Also, if player commits ANY violation once Unsmaked the station will immediately fire to kill regardless if the time to remove oneself from the area or not.

Same for megaships, but as those usually have way less defense they would become way more important to pirates.

A few more points on How The Infamy scale would work (in the way i see it)

Once first level of infamy is gained, there is a generated sphere of threat awareness around the players location, triggering a warning broadcast to all stations and systems within an x Ly radius, performing a crime anywhere within this sphere centers it back on the Player immediately, as for using any outposts or stations without the anon protocol will do the same.
The higher the infamy the more this sphere increase up until a threshold

Once a high enough infamy is reached federation license is revoked, once this happens a strong wing of NPC bounty hunters are dispatched ONCE trying to subdue the player, if they are successful, all damages done by the player credits (partial or full) wise will be removed from the players account and given to the victims.
If not, the player stays an outlaw until he turns himself in, or gets killed.


Also, the players location will be available to nearby bounty hunter players who have a special module equipped (wink wink) that will show any players with a high infamy and high bounty and their approximate location, also, a bonus bounty will be issued in addition to the bounty the pilot accumulated thus far.

This will make an outlaw play style actually work, as right now, pilots federation giving out licenses to pilots that murder their own employees, makes nos ense.

Also, infamy will only raise when killing a HUMAN players, killing NPCs, will only instate local bounty, for game play purposes, as it's just NPCs, and really who cares?
This bounty will still instate anonymous protocol, but only in said system, like it works right now.
Or, this can be played around with, eg: power playe NPC killing will raise a faction wide awareness, and not a pilots federation, making all stations of said superpower hate you, requiring anon mode.
Since you already have the HOSTILE warning on the HUD when in an opposing factions system.

As for hot ships/Modules.
Im not sure this is needed, all bounties should simply be commander wise.
That or Ships should not turn HOT from getting fines, especially from miniscule fines like 200cr, again it adds no gameplay value and hurts clean players way more than actual outlaws.

Also tiny refinements that would improve QOL Significantly:
Burning Stations should not issue any fines of any sort,they are on fire, i doubt loitering will be a problem in a station that you can sit undocked at for more than 10 seconds without boiling, also, station bulkheads should close(if they can) and requesting emergency docking will open them briefly.

Anonymous Access should not be triggered by 200cr fines,or any fines at all. it adds an unnecessary mouse click that adds 0 gameplay value, it should only be issued on BOUNTIES.

Thats about it, i for sure missed some things as the C&P is not a simple thing anymore.
Poke me at what you think!
Cheers![cool][cool]

and if you'd have read the post you'd see i went on to describe exactly that, but i see toxicity isnt only bound ingame.
otherwise why even bother to reply if youre not gonna add anything constructive, besides saying "lel tldr didnt read cause i disagree with you" might aswell never replied in the first place.

but sheesh, way to be an jerk about it!
its a suggestion, instead of telling me your pointless opinion, couldve read it and actually gave feedback, but i guess having a superiority complex is higher on your list.

Ok, challenge taken.


Your initial post is highly presumptuous. You make a broad generalised statement that assumes everyone agrees with you, just because, k'know its cool to be the one that knows best

C&P is not "a bit of a mess". It's a massive improvement on the old system, although like almost everything else in life ever some small improvements would never go amiss.

You then go on to discuss some scenarios of players "abiding by the rules" but coming off on the wrong side of C&P rules.

In summary you list A player trying to enter a station under thargoid attack without requesting clearance. Sounds like a very sensible thing to me,. Your station is underattack, you should be even more vigilant who you let in. Deserves a fine.

You talk about 'brushing' an npc in the mail slot and getting a fine. Again, perfectly reasonable, you hit another ship could have been catastrophic. the fine is a warning. Rules applied well I think.

So the two examples you give are trivial and reflect a miniscule proportion of the events in the galaxy. That is a long way from earning the claim "A bit of a mess".

You seem to have a view that C&P is about dealing with gankers and griefers. It isn't. Genuine griefing is against FDev policy and comes with a real world ban. Its pretty clear in their terms of service.

C&P is about having an internally consistent system of law enforcement. This is an attempt to both simulate the laws of the galaxy in operation but also to enable different types of gamplay in the game where players can legitimately follow a craeer path as a smuggler or even as a murderer.

You routinely confuse the terms ganker/griefer and criminal. They are very very different things and it sigificantly undermines your claims that the current system is broken and that you have a better proposal.


So lets try this : (and yes i know there will be a thousand posts arguing that these definitions are wrong, thats how things are in a place where there are lots of views)

A criminal in ED is someone enacting the role of a pirate, smuggler, assassin or a number of other roles, often for credits, notoriety, increased bounty but also for BGS reasons to serve their faction or to hinder another faction. All of these are entirely legitimate gameplay styles and are actively encouraged in ED. In broad terms they have in game motivation which the follow for the purposes of enjoyment, and the people that play with them in open and play the role of cargo hauler, liner operator or such like accept and understand the risks and engage in the roleplay of the criminal by the act of logging into open. Hell even if we log ito pg or solo we accept the roles for npc pirates etc. Many criminal/victims (pirates and PvP attacks) encounters are punctuated by goodwill messages.

A ganker/griefer is someone who is deliberately out to affect the gameplay of others usually, but not always within the rules of the game. It is often seen as motiveless to the 'victim' because the motivations can be outside of the game. Griefing is also often repetitive.

So lets be really clear here. Interdicting and destroying someone on their way to a CG because you are supporting the other side is not griefing.
Pirating cargo from someone is not griefing.
Destroying someone working for a different faction in BGS is not griefing.

Sure the victim might be frustrated but its a valid play style in open.

Don't want to be part of that play style, then PG and solo are the place to be.

I agree that continued attacks on the same individual may amount to griefing. But if the attacker is sat in one system trying to blockade it and the 'victim' keeps flying in and doing the same thing then that's pretty much gameplay and a lack of smarts on behalf of the victim.

I also agree that continually attacking players who are significantly newer or weaker goes somewhat against the spirit of the game... but that is not a fine line - it's very blurred. Now if that one player is following your wake across the galaxy in a meta corvette and killing your adder at every jump then you have a claim to being griefed. Likewise if that engineered conda is sat outside a starting location playing whack a mole with sidewinders you have a complaint about being griefed.


Your entire premise on the purpose of C&P is flawed, it isn't to deal with griefers.
I'll reiterate my point from earlier. C&P exists to simulate the laws of the galaxy and to provide a foil for those that legitimately play a criminal role.

If you have a problem with a genuine griefer then thats' a reportable incidence to FDev. And their own processes should appropriately deal with it.


Being a criminal should be a challenge. Remaining at large should be a gameplay style. I agree that there should be a much greater differentiation between low and high security systems. Law abiding pilots should feel nervous making a delivery to a low system and pirates should be scared operating in a high security system. A lot of the fact that they don't is not down to C&P it is down to the enormous power creep from engineering.

So yes, ATR could be stronger and more responsive. But they should not make EVERY criminal act in a high security system suicide. Nor should they be given "thargoid tech" to make them stronger, thats just a game mechanic. ATR should respond in a way that is internally consistent with the game. Sure make them Elite pilots, sure put them in engineered meta ships. But put them in a station or outpost or even a new security installation and make them fly patrols.

Undertaking criminal acts in High sec systems should be tough. Not impossible. The same way doing law abiding missions in anarchy systems should be dangerous but not impossible.

Some of your suggestions around revoking of licenses and availability of services at stations have merit. And many of them have been made before.

However the one aspect you are missing can be summed up by the statement "one mans terrorist is another man's freedom fighter". Or in another way... your infamous criminal might be my hero sticking it to the man. With the galaxy broken up into the thousands of minor factions conflict (through politics as well as violence) is inevitable. Your faction massacring ships from my faction makes you a hero to them and a criminal to me. Stations are owned and operated by factions. So access to those assets should be based on who the owning faction is and your notoriety to THEM ... not by some over arching GalCop. If anything that is where the C&P does have issues.

If you want to go down a route of having station services restricted to players because they are criminals then you need to also have the reverse happen and low security/anarchy systems become criminal refuges where the high notoriety is rewarded. The same would could be the case in all systems. You're a principle supporter of faction X who loses a war to faction Y who gains control of a station. I think its reasonable that faction Y wouldn't want you in their sattion.

Some of this Fdev have deliberately ruled out with their decisions to make all influence ratings and ranks independent of each other. Hence you get allied status with both sides in a war and Rear Admirals flying cutters.

You made a comment about a masking module. nice idea. But think it through. It is David Brabens "princess problem" all over again. For reference Braben is on record as saying one of the problemswith MMOs are princesses. The special things that you introduce as rewards, or as limited items that can only be achieved in specific ways by completing certain quests. Before long everyone has a princess and it becomes necessary to have a princess to compete (engineers are somewhat this). IF you have ID masking tech available to players then you actually make criminal activties easier and you encourage them in people that are otherwise law abiding. Everyone will be runnign around with masking tech because they will be somewhat immune to the consequences and undertaking more criminal acts on others. Also I don't think the servers could cope with the number of players calling themselves Salome.

Notoriety is a step in the direction of the penalties you suggest. It does affect your freedoms and available services. The mechanic exists. It could do with a tweak sure and make removing it harder. There we agree. But a genuinely crimianal player should be able to use a base where his notoriety means something positive.

I can imagine the low security/anarchy system that harbours criminals ... sorry not criminals.... other people's freedom fighters. Being the target of BGS groups specifically to expand, take over the system, clean it up and alter the security rating. Or the reverse, organised crime expanding into a system to take over and lower it's rating to create a ready made base.

Now, thats is gameplay!

Leaving aside the arguments of freedom fighter/terrost for a moment and lets deal with punishment for being caught. Current C&P systm attemts to use notoriety and the wind down time to punish players in the real world through limiting their gameplay for a set time. It's a bold move. It creates a direct connection between the scale of the in game crime and the real world impact on a player.

As a captured criminal I would apply, a sliding scale on your insurance payout. Minor offences and your rebuy is 5%. Be a murdering hobo with numerous kills in a high security system then sorry your insurance doesn't pay up and you also lose mats and data and engineered modules. Here have a sidey. But you would only have this applied IF you are caught in a system which views you as a criminal and not a freedom fighter. In a pirate friendly anarchy system you might be treated like a hero.

If we ONLY use C&P to punish players that break laws then we lose a huge part of gameplay for all of us. The trick is in getting the balance right.


So in summary of a long wall of text.

I disagree C&P is not a 'mess' as you so prejoratively assumed.
I do not agree with you that it harms law abiding citizens - your examples where it does are trivial.
I think you vastly misunderstand the challenge FDev has in adding a policing system to a game that intentionally supports the criminal gameplay idea.
I further think you only look at C&P as being punitive to those that break the law you have given zero thought to how C&P needs to support the game as a whole. An that limited personal view pervades almost every suggestion you make.

I think the C&P is a vast improvement over what went before and the basic mechanic has a lot of merits. It maybe struggles a little to deal with those at either end of the spectrum (tiny fines at one edn and vast bounties at the other) though in the latter case thats more an issue of not being able to stop capable criminal commanders in powerful metaships (not all of who are bad people).

If there is any one area i would say required work it would be the idea of having notoriety linked to faction rep. So you would have geuine difficulty dealing with factions you have harmed or in high security systems performed criminal acts in, and having that same notoriety help you in anarchy systems. This would mean operating C&P at the faction level however which would become .... complex...

Happy now?

 

[StiTch]

I disagree C&P is not a 'mess' as you so prejoratively assumed.

If there is any one area i would say required work it would be ...

Actually allowing a criminal "playstyle".

C&P moves further and further towards "make life difficult for the naughty people", which you would only compound in your suggestion. There should be risk and consequence yes, but take one look towards the original game plan for ED and you will see that piracy etc. were all intended to be base playstyles for the game. Everything from brute force to social engineering to obtain goods were even encouraged, on top of discussions for criminal missions and events.

OP actually made a nod towards increased payouts for piracy, so that's appreciated - but sorry OP, we aren't gonna fix this problem through game-ified payout multipliers and making criminals go through Speed Awareness Courses.

C&P will never, ever be fixed as long as ganking is the only activity for criminals to actually enjoy.

 

[Incandescence]

Ok, challenge taken.


Your initial post is highly presumptuous. You make a broad generalised statement that assumes everyone agrees with you, just because, k'know its cool to be the one that knows best

C&P is not "a bit of a mess". It's a massive improvement on the old system, although like almost everything else in life ever some small improvements would never go amiss.

You then go on to discuss some scenarios of players "abiding by the rules" but coming off on the wrong side of C&P rules.

In summary you list A player trying to enter a station under thargoid attack without requesting clearance. Sounds like a very sensible thing to me,. Your station is underattack, you should be even more vigilant who you let in. Deserves a fine.

You talk about 'brushing' an npc in the mail slot and getting a fine. Again, perfectly reasonable, you hit another ship could have been catastrophic. the fine is a warning. Rules applied well I think.

So the two examples you give are trivial and reflect a miniscule proportion of the events in the galaxy. That is a long way from earning the claim "A bit of a mess".

You seem to have a view that C&P is about dealing with gankers and griefers. It isn't. Genuine griefing is against FDev policy and comes with a real world ban. Its pretty clear in their terms of service.

C&P is about having an internally consistent system of law enforcement. This is an attempt to both simulate the laws of the galaxy in operation but also to enable different types of gamplay in the game where players can legitimately follow a craeer path as a smuggler or even as a murderer.

You routinely confuse the terms ganker/griefer and criminal. They are very very different things and it sigificantly undermines your claims that the current system is broken and that you have a better proposal.


So lets try this : (and yes i know there will be a thousand posts arguing that these definitions are wrong, thats how things are in a place where there are lots of views)

A criminal in ED is someone enacting the role of a pirate, smuggler, assassin or a number of other roles, often for credits, notoriety, increased bounty but also for BGS reasons to serve their faction or to hinder another faction. All of these are entirely legitimate gameplay styles and are actively encouraged in ED. In broad terms they have in game motivation which the follow for the purposes of enjoyment, and the people that play with them in open and play the role of cargo hauler, liner operator or such like accept and understand the risks and engage in the roleplay of the criminal by the act of logging into open. Hell even if we log ito pg or solo we accept the roles for npc pirates etc. Many criminal/victims (pirates and PvP attacks) encounters are punctuated by goodwill messages.

A ganker/griefer is someone who is deliberately out to affect the gameplay of others usually, but not always within the rules of the game. It is often seen as motiveless to the 'victim' because the motivations can be outside of the game. Griefing is also often repetitive.

So lets be really clear here. Interdicting and destroying someone on their way to a CG because you are supporting the other side is not griefing.
Pirating cargo from someone is not griefing.
Destroying someone working for a different faction in BGS is not griefing.

Sure the victim might be frustrated but its a valid play style in open.

Don't want to be part of that play style, then PG and solo are the place to be.

I agree that continued attacks on the same individual may amount to griefing. But if the attacker is sat in one system trying to blockade it and the 'victim' keeps flying in and doing the same thing then that's pretty much gameplay and a lack of smarts on behalf of the victim.

I also agree that continually attacking players who are significantly newer or weaker goes somewhat against the spirit of the game... but that is not a fine line - it's very blurred. Now if that one player is following your wake across the galaxy in a meta corvette and killing your adder at every jump then you have a claim to being griefed. Likewise if that engineered conda is sat outside a starting location playing whack a mole with sidewinders you have a complaint about being griefed.


Your entire premise on the purpose of C&P is flawed, it isn't to deal with griefers.
I'll reiterate my point from earlier. C&P exists to simulate the laws of the galaxy and to provide a foil for those that legitimately play a criminal role.

If you have a problem with a genuine griefer then thats' a reportable incidence to FDev. And their own processes should appropriately deal with it.


Being a criminal should be a challenge. Remaining at large should be a gameplay style. I agree that there should be a much greater differentiation between low and high security systems. Law abiding pilots should feel nervous making a delivery to a low system and pirates should be scared operating in a high security system. A lot of the fact that they don't is not down to C&P it is down to the enormous power creep from engineering.

So yes, ATR could be stronger and more responsive. But they should not make EVERY criminal act in a high security system suicide. Nor should they be given "thargoid tech" to make them stronger, thats just a game mechanic. ATR should respond in a way that is internally consistent with the game. Sure make them Elite pilots, sure put them in engineered meta ships. But put them in a station or outpost or even a new security installation and make them fly patrols.

Undertaking criminal acts in High sec systems should be tough. Not impossible. The same way doing law abiding missions in anarchy systems should be dangerous but not impossible.

Some of your suggestions around revoking of licenses and availability of services at stations have merit. And many of them have been made before.

However the one aspect you are missing can be summed up by the statement "one mans terrorist is another man's freedom fighter". Or in another way... your infamous criminal might be my hero sticking it to the man. With the galaxy broken up into the thousands of minor factions conflict (through politics as well as violence) is inevitable. Your faction massacring ships from my faction makes you a hero to them and a criminal to me. Stations are owned and operated by factions. So access to those assets should be based on who the owning faction is and your notoriety to THEM ... not by some over arching GalCop. If anything that is where the C&P does have issues.

If you want to go down a route of having station services restricted to players because they are criminals then you need to also have the reverse happen and low security/anarchy systems become criminal refuges where the high notoriety is rewarded. The same would could be the case in all systems. You're a principle supporter of faction X who loses a war to faction Y who gains control of a station. I think its reasonable that faction Y wouldn't want you in their sattion.

Some of this Fdev have deliberately ruled out with their decisions to make all influence ratings and ranks independent of each other. Hence you get allied status with both sides in a war and Rear Admirals flying cutters.

You made a comment about a masking module. nice idea. But think it through. It is David Brabens "princess problem" all over again. For reference Braben is on record as saying one of the problemswith MMOs are princesses. The special things that you introduce as rewards, or as limited items that can only be achieved in specific ways by completing certain quests. Before long everyone has a princess and it becomes necessary to have a princess to compete (engineers are somewhat this). IF you have ID masking tech available to players then you actually make criminal activties easier and you encourage them in people that are otherwise law abiding. Everyone will be runnign around with masking tech because they will be somewhat immune to the consequences and undertaking more criminal acts on others. Also I don't think the servers could cope with the number of players calling themselves Salome.

Notoriety is a step in the direction of the penalties you suggest. It does affect your freedoms and available services. The mechanic exists. It could do with a tweak sure and make removing it harder. There we agree. But a genuinely crimianal player should be able to use a base where his notoriety means something positive.

I can imagine the low security/anarchy system that harbours criminals ... sorry not criminals.... other people's freedom fighters. Being the target of BGS groups specifically to expand, take over the system, clean it up and alter the security rating. Or the reverse, organised crime expanding into a system to take over and lower it's rating to create a ready made base.

Now, thats is gameplay!

Leaving aside the arguments of freedom fighter/terrost for a moment and lets deal with punishment for being caught. Current C&P systm attemts to use notoriety and the wind down time to punish players in the real world through limiting their gameplay for a set time. It's a bold move. It creates a direct connection between the scale of the in game crime and the real world impact on a player.

As a captured criminal I would apply, a sliding scale on your insurance payout. Minor offences and your rebuy is 5%. Be a murdering hobo with numerous kills in a high security system then sorry your insurance doesn't pay up and you also lose mats and data and engineered modules. Here have a sidey. But you would only have this applied IF you are caught in a system which views you as a criminal and not a freedom fighter. In a pirate friendly anarchy system you might be treated like a hero.

If we ONLY use C&P to punish players that break laws then we lose a huge part of gameplay for all of us. The trick is in getting the balance right.


So in summary of a long wall of text.

I disagree C&P is not a 'mess' as you so prejoratively assumed.
I do not agree with you that it harms law abiding citizens - your examples where it does are trivial.
I think you vastly misunderstand the challenge FDev has in adding a policing system to a game that intentionally supports the criminal gameplay idea.
I further think you only look at C&P as being punitive to those that break the law you have given zero thought to how C&P needs to support the game as a whole. An that limited personal view pervades almost every suggestion you make.

I think the C&P is a vast improvement over what went before and the basic mechanic has a lot of merits. It maybe struggles a little to deal with those at either end of the spectrum (tiny fines at one edn and vast bounties at the other) though in the latter case thats more an issue of not being able to stop capable criminal commanders in powerful metaships (not all of who are bad people).

If there is any one area i would say required work it would be the idea of having notoriety linked to faction rep. So you would have geuine difficulty dealing with factions you have harmed or in high security systems performed criminal acts in, and having that same notoriety help you in anarchy systems. This would mean operating C&P at the faction level however which would become .... complex...

Happy now?

You know whats sad?
is that ive looked through your comment history and you seem to be notorious for being kind of a jerk.
Fix your Superiority complex.

And now, this isnt about you.
and i didnt "challenge you" this is a suggetion forum, and it was my SUGGESTION, not a personal debate.
And i could care less what you think about "my definition of what the C&P" is there for.

But, you are wrong, Like it or not, i have hundreds that disagree with you.
it is a mess, but not because Fdev is bad, its because the game is large and its complex, as is the C&P


my version tried to add some mechanics that would do more than just add a bounty on your head, but it seems you are just keen to function by emotion and get salty.

and again, you added nothing to the discussion, and it still seems like you didnt read it.
since your entire post seems to revolve around me mentioning the word "griefer" which seemed to poke a nerve.
you did not address a single thing i suggested was added.

also, my main focus were never Griefers per se, but it seems you're just content with lack of gameplay.

also, this is a suggestion forum, not a "anyone with a superiority complex is free to shut everyone up who doesnt agree with them on suggestion forum"
now, please see yourself out, i think being other places are missing your smartbummery
youre entitled to your opinion, and as someone with thousands of hours in this game, i have the right to tell you, that you are respectfully wrong. [big grin]

 

[Incandescence]

Please read my post and add to the discussion, i dont need a mad mob of running of assumptions based on one , loud flaming voice.
My attempt is to add to gameplay.
this isnt about griefing, i could care less what people call it, but getting a money bounty on your head doesnt do anything to deterr criminals of any sort.
You can disagree or agree with me but its a fact.

Current Piracy is dead.
there is no value , or mechanic change in being a criminal besides being notorious on forums or RP purposes. which is fine.

But with mining getting more content, and exploration, why not combat and piracy aswell?

Or are we forever bound to one play style and no change?
ive been in this game since early beta.

 

[Marra Morgan]

Please read my post and add to the discussion, i dont need a mad mob of running of assumptions based on one , loud flaming voice.
My attempt is to add to gameplay.
this isnt about griefing, i could care less what people call it, but getting a money bounty on your head doesnt do anything to deterr criminals of any sort.
You can disagree or agree with me but its a fact.

Current Piracy is dead.
there is no value , or mechanic change in being a criminal besides being notorious on forums or RP purposes. which is fine.

I made my Trade Elite from stolen diamonds.

You might want to check your own assumptions.

 

[Killnine]

Now we've got a whole new folder on our hands, but now not only does not deter any potential Grief/Ganking it only adds more to the players actually abiding the rules.
...[snip]...
And Real Issue is that gankers and griefers and whatever you want to call them don't value credits, so issuing even global bounties won't do anything, nor will adding a bigger bounty for murder, there needs to be one more reason not be a criminal other than "This number on top of your head is now a bit bigger)
...[snip]...
Anarchy systems should become Hotspots, where these players can set home bases and make their own rules.
Also, black market rates should be increased 50x times at least to justify any pirating of. Any sort to be worth anyone's time.
Anarchy should have very high paying black markets, and whole economies based off of black market goods, attracting even regular traders to seek out and dare make tens of millions of trading very risky illicit goods, as well as dealing with real commander pirates, as well as highly dangerous NPC pirates.
...[snip]...
Anonymous Access should not be triggered by 200cr fines,or any fines at all. it adds an unnecessary mouse click that adds 0 gameplay value, it should only be issued on BOUNTIES.

I've said a lot of this before, here and elsewhere, but I'll say it again anyway. Some ideas are mine, some not - sorry for not crediting sources, I simply don't remember and cannot be bothered with looking the messages up.

I agree with the main point here: the number one issue with C&P is that credit penalties don't mean anything. Any "serious" ganker has sank gazillion hours into the game and has an obscene amount of credits. A "casual" ganker doesn't need credits as long as he stays above the waterline (a rebuy or two). And especially bounties don't mean anything, unless 1) there are some serious kick- NPC bounty hunters around and 2) bounty hunting CMDRs have more of a chance to find high-bounty criminal CMDRs. Of course the main problem is, that a ganker can always just take refuge in Solo/PG. To address this, high enough notoriety and/or bounty (especially from CMDR murder) should "lock" the player into open-only for a lengthy period of time (I'm thinking days, or a counter that only counts down in-game time). Tracking down perps should be made easier. A low-hanging fruit would be enhancing the "last seen" functionality: add a time-stamp, so bounty hunters know if the trail is already cold. Second step would be to have some sort of "informants" that message the CMDR when someone on his/her "kill list" (limited to a handful of CMDRs, only above a notoriety threshold to avoid exploiting this for griefing) visits a station. Could be just stations that the CMDR is allied with, but could also be something you actively set up by expending credits (or mats, or whatever), or both?

This sort of manhunt mechanic would not only discourage the worst kind of gankers, but also give "legit" PvP to the ones that (claim to) crave it. (Personally I think the majority of gankers who declare they're "emergent content" and "PvPers" are just making excuses for being utter human garbage and do not really want a fair fight, but I'm sure there are some that would be happy to get to fight real PvP.)

Anarchy systems and black markets could really use an overhaul. I agree wholeheartedly that they should trade openly in all goods, with the mostly (elsewhere) illegal ones having high prices, and also with no limitations to selling stolen goods. No questions asked, everything goes. They should also have their services available (for a higher price, though) regardless of notoriety, "hotness" of modules, etc. Ie. most rules shouldn't apply there, they're "free ports" by definition. This doesn't mean they wouldn't maintain order - some anarchy factions would totally issue local bounties for attacking cargo ships, since the (illegal) cargo is their life blood. They just wouldn't care about bounties issues by other factions or powers. Anarchy systems would be a natural hot spot for criminal activity and thus also for bounty-hunting. PvPers rejoice, others steer clear or take a conscious risk.

Black markets elsewhere could be a bit shadier. One does not simply walk into a black market. They should be unlocked by performing a couple of missions for the local criminal faction. Black markets should also sell goods. They wouldn't have a constant supply of stuff, unless a neighbouring system produces it, but you should be able to occasionally be in luck and find something available. Personally I would also love to see both risks and rewards for smuggling upped. Would really love to be a smuggler, but it's currently not really a valid career path.

So, yes, crime (esp. murder) should carry harsh penalties. But if you're in it for profit instead of ganking, it should also carry greater rewards.

PS/EDIT: I realised the above doesn't really address the "Obscenely Rich Invincible Immortal Space Pirate" problem. A simple fix: given high enough notoriety, ship insurances are void and null. Yeah, sure a lot of them would combat log if they would run into a bounty hunter capable of defeating them, but anyone "accidentally disconnecting" while fighting with insurance disabled should get flagged by the system. Even get an automatic warning the first time, subsequent times FD should review the activity and penalise/ban if it seems intentional.

 

[Braandlin]

You know whats sad?
is that ive looked through your comment history and you seem to be notorious for being kind of a jerk.
Fix your Superiority complex.

And now, this isnt about you.
and i didnt "challenge you" this is a suggetion forum, and it was my SUGGESTION, not a personal debate.
And i could care less what you think about "my definition of what the C&P" is there for.

But, you are wrong, Like it or not, i have hundreds that disagree with you.
it is a mess, but not because Fdev is bad, its because the game is large and its complex, as is the C&P


my version tried to add some mechanics that would do more than just add a bounty on your head, but it seems you are just keen to function by emotion and get salty.

and again, you added nothing to the discussion, and it still seems like you didnt read it.
since your entire post seems to revolve around me mentioning the word "griefer" which seemed to poke a nerve.
you did not address a single thing i suggested was added.

also, my main focus were never Griefers per se, but it seems you're just content with lack of gameplay.

also, this is a suggestion forum, not a "anyone with a superiority complex is free to shut everyone up who doesnt agree with them on suggestion forum"
now, please see yourself out, i think being other places are missing your smartbummery
youre entitled to your opinion, and as someone with thousands of hours in this game, i have the right to tell you, that you are respectfully wrong. [big grin]

Your initial post is very presumptive, like you're the only one with an opinion and obviously everyone agrees with you. Clearly there are a number of people who don't. You didn't like that being pointed out to you, so i gave you my opinion on the subject.

But no, rather than having a debate with someone who disagrees with you, you resort to childish insults.

Fly safe CMDR o7

 

[CMDR_Elver]

I tend to agree with the OP in the C&P is a "bit of a mess", it may function and even have some nice ideas thrown in. Overall C&P does not logically mesh together as a system, it does not address the old chestnut of griefing/ganking and most of all provide exciting gameplay for crinimals or otherwise. C&P threads going back years on this forum were mainly foucused PvP pre Beyond, griefing/ganking in particular but susicide winder exploits aswell etc. Not many people were complaining about faction/power C&P mechanics. Post the C&P changes in chapter 3 most of the C&P threads have been complaining about riduculous bounties being issued for minor incidents, which, add abosultely nothing to the game what so ever. In my opionion FDEV do not know what the difference between a fine and a bounty is, this is a major flaw in the prevoius and current c&p system. Griefing and ganking is still a feature of the game, it hasn't been really addressed, this has had knock on effects with players being forced into Solo/PG (with the inevitable divisivness their), even increasesing the excuse for combat logging.

I have always thought that Greifing /ganking and symptons of a bad C&P system /lack of direction for PvP combat playing styles. This is a space game, where cmdrs can put big guns on their ships and attack who they want because there is free will in the "game". However, that should come with consequences for thier actions, that (a.) make it increasing more difficult/expensive to carry on griefing and (b) give some gameplay to the perputrators and cmdrs who opposed there actions e.g. bounty hunters. The fact that PvP bounty hunting has not been developed in the years the game has been going is a great shame.

Some contraints/concepts do exist with ED that need to be considered when thinking about C&P, that are essentially the basis of the game.

1. There is no Cmdr death, the closest to death in the game is bankrupcy.
2. All Cmdrs are members of the Pilots Federation (PF), whether they are criminals or not. The Pilots Federation is amoral bunch backing its cmdrs with whatever employment suits them. For example combat, bounty hunting, slave trading, smuggling, drug dealing are all valid for the PF, it is upto the cmdrs. Cmdrs are not going to be thrown out of the PF in other words but maybe be punished if breaking the rules. FDev have not done enough with the PF (imho) with regarding to C&P or conduct bewteen its members. It potentially has some interesting tools at is disposal, e.g. PF bounties and re-buy costs and the most obvoius currently in the game.
3. C&P is not absolute, they are many shades of grey, with the terrorist/freedom fighter analogy fitting perfectly here.

Some of your ideas from the list I can agree with around missions as a punishment are in general quite good and logical, further to just straightforward fines and bounties. If faction/power reputation was central to the C&P system this would work very well I feel. Your idea in the OP linked mission to notoriety, which, I think does not fit too well. Notoriety was a step in the right direction but always was a fix for the broken "Hotships" idea. The PF does not have a reputation system for their members in the game, yet! Missions for the PF directly could work but for me I would just have them for Factions/powers.

The bounty systems in the game do need looking at. Currently there is not much of a distinction between fine or a bounty, a bounty a cmdr can pay off themselves is not a bounty it is a fine. Bounties should behave differently and be tied to reputation level, i.e. if "hostile" with a faction/power then your are wanted with a bounty on your head. I agree that bounty should be related to the cost of your ship and not just an arbitary amount for a crime.

Agree fines should not trigger the docking protocols but if you have bounties or as implied above if you are "hostile" with the controlling faction.

Having hotspot maps I have seen that idea before and is not a bad one. Anything to increase PvP bounty hunting potential!

Ideas to make anarchies more relevent or create better blackmarket or criminal econmomies to give balance to C&P I would welcome also.


I have put up a C&P system here , that you might be interested to read. Have some rep for thinking about C&P. It has inspired me to look back at my own suggestion and improve the "crime" aspect.

 

[Killnine]

I have put up a C&P system here , that you might be interested to read. Have some rep for thinking about C&P. It has inspired me to look back at my own suggestion and improve the "crime" aspect.

Interesting read, thanks!