Change Wake-Scanning for Quality of Life improvement

[DemiserofD]

Based on basic bell curve concept. There will always be a certain percentage of outliers on either end of the curve. I don't need a source for basic math concepts. My estimate of 4% complainers is actually unrealistically large. Consider yourself special.


Literally? Thousands? Maybe you have a source for that.

So you don't have a source at all then. Just as I thought.

As far as my source is concerned, feel free to look at the steam reviews. They are all easily accessible.

Honestly, even the positive reviews are a fairly scathing critique of the engineering system. Does anyone say they actually like it? Best case is people saying that they tolerate it, but that doesn't mean something should be preserved!

 

[Screemonster]

Why expect to scan wakes without a wake scanner? It's not as if ships don't have plenty of utility slots.

nooo NOOOO but then I'd have less SHIELDS

booster stacking was a mistake for exactly this reason

 

[V'larr]

nooo NOOOO but then I'd have less SHIELDS

booster stacking was a mistake for exactly this reason

The game was better when shield boosters and HRPs did not exist. Shield reinforcement packages at least have considerable opportunity cost, whereas with boosters...well, the numbers have never lied there.

 

[Mphoenix92]

The game was better when shield boosters and HRPs did not exist. Shield reinforcement packages at least have considerable opportunity cost, whereas with boosters...well, the numbers have never lied there.

Again this isn't about saving the utility slot. In the circumstance I outlined in my OP, I would literally always fly with a wake scanner. At present, I never fly with a wake-scanner unless I'm explicitly farming for wake data in a system that is suffering famine that has a distribution center. Why? Because I won't use the wake scanner in its current form in normal gameplay. Too cumbersome and not rewarding enough under normal circumstances--herein lies the problem. In the current state of the game, gathering materials in sufficient quantities in normal gameplay is so onerous that we explicitly choose to grind them out in the most efficient manner while not otherwise actually "playing the game" in any real sense, just to avoid the cumbersome nature of it.


This can be improved.

 

[V'larr]

Also I'm gonna say this, because I know it's gonna annoy a few people, but I stand by it. This is not your average 150hr game, done and dusted, level 500 dwarfpony by weekend. It should be, and is, punishing. Although I wish it was as punishing as it was back in 2015-2016 before the big inflation over the course of 5-6 years.

I think that any time you believe a game should be punishing just for the sake of it, you have lost sight of why games exist. They exist to be enjoyable and fun. Punishment is, by definition, the antithesis to that. The moment you start making "punishment" a priority over that, you've missed the point of your game existing. Which, to be frank, is a mistake all too often repeated by FDev in terms of design choices.

 

[V'larr]

Again this isn't about saving the utility slot. In the circumstance I outlined in my OP, I would literally always fly with a wake scanner. At present, I never fly with a wake-scanner unless I'm explicitly farming for wake data in a system that is suffering famine that has a distribution center. Why? Because I won't use the wake scanner in its current form in normal gameplay. Too cumbersome and not rewarding enough under normal circumstances--herein lies the problem. In the current state of the game, gathering materials in sufficient quantities in normal gameplay is so onerous that we explicitly choose to grind them out in the most efficient manner while not otherwise actually "playing the game" in any real sense, just to avoid the cumbersome nature of it.


This can be improved.

You're right. My response wasn't really to do with your proposal, just general ranting about hitpoint inflation being a mistake since the moment shield boosters and HRPs were added to the game.

 

[Brrokk]

Have you considered the possibility that multiple people complaining about something indicates there may be a problem?

Also, have you considered that it's possible to make a game that is enjoyable to more people than just yourself?

Multiple people will complain about anything.

If someone's enjoyment of the game is reduced because they can't scan wakes, an easy solution is already available and has been described in this thread.

 

[Brrokk]

Every game has the 4% players that are going to complain. It doesn't mean there is something wrong with the game, it means there are 4% that try it, kinda like it, and want it changed to their personal preferences.

I'm not saying ED is a perfect game. It obviously is not. But this constant complaining by yoursef and a few others about not having enough slots to fit everything you want into a ship is really silly. A primary aspect of ED is ship building. Making decisions on what to include. Making compromises. Sure I get it... some players don't want to make decisions. They want to just pick from a selection of pre-fabbed vehicles from a menu. Well that's not ED.

I'm wondering if what some want is really a "magic ship of holding": a Sidewinder with infinite slots where you can fit any modules your credit balance can purchase. We could start measuring hull and shield strength in decibels.

 

[Brrokk]

The game was better when shield boosters and HRPs did not exist. Shield reinforcement packages at least have considerable opportunity cost, whereas with boosters...well, the numbers have never lied there.

That was before my time, but it sounds good.

 

[SteveWW57]

Let us not forget:

This game can be really enjoyed without gathering ANY materials at all.

Ignore engineering and the associated materiel gathering for ships and Odyssey suits/weapons.
Buy A and D rated modules* for your ships and G3 suits and weapons.

Now go and play the game and enjoy it. If you cannot, that is a problem that you have and the Devs cannot solve it for you.

* Currently class 5 pre-engineered FSDs can be bought, as can detailed surface scanners. Part of the purchase price is some material, so if you are willing to restrict your ship choices and put in a little bit of time to gathering materials then you can buy one or both. Neither are essential.

Steve 07.

P.S. I have a newbie CMDR running around in an un-engineered Cobra Mk III and G2/3 suits and weapons. Not done any engineering at all. Am I having fun with that CMDR, hell YEAH! I learnt the lesson experience teaches.

 

[Greasetrap42]

At present, I never fly with a wake-scanner unless I'm explicitly farming for wake data in a system that is suffering famine that has a distribution center. Why? Because I won't use the wake scanner in its current form in normal gameplay.

This can be said for many specialty modules. I disagree that just because a module isn't used much by some cmdrs it should be "built-in" to the ship for the random chance it is desired "to add gameplay". A choice must be made when building a ship. A cmdr chooses the modules they would like on hand for a given ship. For certain tasks modules might need to be swapped out. This is a core principle of the game. The ship building concept is a key feature that attracts many players such as myself.

...gathering materials in sufficient quantities in normal gameplay is so onerous that we explicitly choose to grind them out in the most efficient manner while not otherwise actually "playing the game" in any real sense, just to avoid the cumbersome nature of it.

Many players with a reasonable sized fleet of engineered ships would disagree.

There are some short term "one-time-only" grindy activities pretty much necessary for certain things such as guardian materials. Activities such as gathering the guardian obelisk data materials are best done farming through relogging... which is pretty crappy gameplay. But it is a one-time activity that a cmdr does for a few hours and no need ever again. Once a stupid amount of mats are acquired, leave never to return again. Very optional, many cmdrs can't be bothered. I don't believe this unique type of engineering mat gathering that you are referring to.

 

[DemiserofD]

Why is it so hard for people to accept that the engineering grind is a big problem for many players? It is probably the number one reason why players have quit. If the proposed Solutions are unacceptable, I am open to other alternatives, but thus far, none have been presented.

Give us something to work with here, but let's not pretend that the game is acceptable in it's current state.

And no, no game can satisfy everyone, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try, or that Improvement is impossible.

 

[Greasetrap42]

Give us something to work with here, but let's not pretend that the game is acceptable in it's current state.

At this point very few will. It is a dead horse that you keep beating. A large number of players see no problem, because engineering is a minor activity in a game that spans 100s of hours for many players. Its just not that tough and it is really easy when done smart. Too easy. If anything it should be made far more difficult. But you are too focused on simply wanting a faster & easier game. I know you keep denying this, but your suggestions all go down the path of making the game for 8yo kids.

You don't like certain repetition in game? Fine. Suggest higher difficulty for lower repetition. To make gameplay loops long enough to be meaningful and challenging. Players would then need actual skill to get the mats to upgrade ships. Time practicing at getting better would be required. But oh... god forbid if the player needs skill to progress in the game.

 

[Mphoenix92]

At this point very few will. It is a dead horse that you keep beating. A large number of players see no problem, because engineering is a minor activity in a game that spans 100s of hours for many players. Its just not that tough and it is really easy when done smart. Too easy. If anything it should be made far more difficult. But you are too focused on simply wanting a faster & easier game. I know you keep denying this, but your suggestions all go down the path of making the game for 8yo kids.

You don't like certain repetition in game? Fine. Suggest higher difficulty for lower repetition. To make gameplay loops long enough to be meaningful and challenging. Players would then need actual skill to get the mats to upgrade ships. Time practicing at getting better would be required. But oh... god forbid if the player needs skill to progress in the game.

Oh that would be fine. For example, being given a really hard 1 hour long, threat 9 combat mission to collect 50 units of pharmacuetical isolators or data-mined wake-exceptions would be great. Absolutely. Yes please.

 

[DemiserofD]

At this point very few will. It is a dead horse that you keep beating. A large number of players see no problem, because engineering is a minor activity in a game that spans 100s of hours for many players. Its just not that tough and it is really easy when done smart. Too easy. If anything it should be made far more difficult. But you are too focused on simply wanting a faster & easier game. I know you keep denying this, but your suggestions all go down the path of making the game for 8yo kids.

You don't like certain repetition in game? Fine. Suggest higher difficulty for lower repetition. To make gameplay loops long enough to be meaningful and challenging. Players would then need actual skill to get the mats to upgrade ships. Time practicing at getting better would be required. But oh... god forbid if the player needs skill to progress in the game.

I don't think anybody has ever complained that getting engineering materials is too hard, or it requires too difficult of gameplay. The problems, and Main complaints, have focused around the fact that it is incredibly boring.

It's not difficult to go throw on a wake scanner or collector limpets, it's just annoying and boring. People don't play games to accumulate currency, they have jobs and work for that. People play games so they can have a fun time, and anything that drags them out of that is a negative that should be reconsidered.

 

[Greasetrap42]

I don't think anybody has ever complained that getting engineering materials is too hard, or it requires too difficult of gameplay. The problems, and Main complaints, have focused around the fact that it is incredibly boring.

Try reading my post again. I did not mention anything about engineering currently being "too hard, or it requires too difficult of gameplay." Quite the reverse, it is way too easy, especially when done smart.

If you want to make suggestions that resound with adult gamers, stop with the juvinile ideas aimed at further dumbing down the game.

 

[DemiserofD]

Try reading my post again. I did not mention anything about engineering currently being "too hard, or it requires too difficult of gameplay." Quite the reverse, it is way too easy, especially when done smart.

If you want to make suggestions that resound with adult gamers, stop with the juvinile ideas aimed at further dumbing down the game.

You said I was asking to make the game easier. I'm not. Just less boring.

I'd absolutely be down with new, more difficult ways of accumulating materials, but I honestly don't believe that would be incompatible with suggestions like this. The opposite, if anything. I think that doing both would synergize with each other and make the whole game experience better overall.

 

[Mphoenix92]

Try reading my post again. I did not mention anything about engineering currently being "too hard, or it requires too difficult of gameplay." Quite the reverse, it is way too easy, especially when done smart.

If you want to make suggestions that resound with adult gamers, stop with the juvinile ideas aimed at further dumbing down the game.

As an adult gamer over 30 with a terminal degree in a STEM field, you have no idea what you're talking about. These suggestions are by intelligent adult gamers, for intelligent adult gamers.

I'd be equally happy to see challenging gameplay with good rewards as I would what I suggested in my OP. My only intention is to remove the explicit grind. No more log out/in to grind sources of materials. Why? Not because the ability to do so has been patched, but because there are just better, more productive, more fun ways to collect the same materials. Good, enjoyable gameplay loops that ALSO give you lots of the materials you need rather than repetitive non-gameplay.

 

[Greasetrap42]

I'd be equally happy to see challenging gameplay with good rewards as I would what I suggested in my OP. My only intention is to remove the explicit grind. No more log out/in to grind sources of materials. Why? Not because the ability to do so has been patched, but because there are just better, more productive, more fun ways to collect the same materials. Good, enjoyable gameplay loops that ALSO give you lots of the materials you need rather than repetitive non-gameplay.

I agree with your sentiments about relogging and farm-grinding, which I generally choose not to do (some specific exceptions which have no viable alternative exists, like obelisk data). Relogging & grind-farmig should not exist in the game. For general ship engineering it is not currently necessary. My above post was directed at a specific individual that has a history of posting juvenile suggestions that are obvously aimed at dumbing down the game. Not at the OP who is getting caught in this.

 

[DemiserofD]

I agree with your sentiments about relogging and farm-grinding, which I generally choose not to do (some specific exceptions which have no viable alternative exists, like obelisk data). Relogging & grind-farmig should not exist in the game. For general ship engineering it is not currently necessary. My above post was directed at a specific individual that has a history of posting juvenile suggestions that are obvously aimed at dumbing down the game. Not at the OP who is getting caught in this.

Seriously? Perhaps you should consider what kind of person resorts to insults when their arguments fail, and do some self-reflection.

I'd also suggest you look into the development journals of the civilization team, specifically regarding 'water finds a crack'. It's not enough to have a sub optimal secondary alternative. If the players have a better option, they will use it, even if they know it is making their game less fun. Willfully ignoring this immutable facet of human nature is nothing more than intentional failure.