I think if others finish the work, they are also risk to get nothing from it. If the architect is not happy with it, he can 'snipe' and see if others finish it, in the same way, but more concentrated.
Changes are needed for making claims at new outposts
- Thread starter winchester1188
- Start date
Yes, that's certainly possible, assuming the architect comes back online to realize that it's happening.
The OP mentions it in his first post on the bottom line, about how he's not sure if it's a bug or oversight that the outpost comes online immediately. I don't agree the architect should get an advantage claiming the next system, but that part is moot since it's a matter of perspective. Discussing the architect being disadvantaged should be something everyone can agree needs a fix, even if the colonization system cannot or will not be made perfectly fair, the parts that can be improved should be.
Yup, the station being on a delay makes things fair for the architect even though it doesn't guarantee he can claim the next system.
If somebody does 10% or less of the work, and gets 100% of the rewards, then yes. That's a problem.
Solution: grind more, sleep less.
In the ultimate case, that's not really possible to prevent. If you need a 10-system chain to reach somewhere [1], then any player (or group!) capable of speed-running a single colonisation faster than you can is able to finish the final step faster than you, making just 10% of the total effort, even if they aren't allowed to use any colonisation contact in your systems until you've already used it first.
But ... are you sure that principle should be applied everywhere? Are you okay with a system architect losing architect status to the hauler(s) if other people deliver at least 91% of the commodities to the initial construction? In that case the Architect is certainly getting 100% of the system benefits (well, that proportion of them which can be exclusive - everyone gets things like market access, mission boards, etc) for <10% of the work.
[1] And accepting your implicit valuation - which is not the one that the game uses - that all the intermediate systems have zero value at all to any party.
This is another good point, of course.
To snipe, you need to not already have an ongoing claim. As the bubble expands, the number of "good" systems around its perimeter will rise, but the number of players making new claims would normally be expected to fall - both because of the usual "the highest player numbers are immediately after a new release" trends, and because at least some colonisers will be perfectly happy just building up the system(s) they already have. So the ratio of good systems to people looking will rise.
So there's a fair chance that by the time Frontier can implement any snipe protection, it's already essentially unnecessary.
Honestly?
That's the real problem with the rush to build bridges. So many perfectly good, developable systems close to the bubble are going to get locked out forever because someone smacked down an outpost on it purely to get somewhere else.
Honestly I'd suggest that claiming new systems should scale in cost with the number of undeveloped slots in your existing systems. You want to build a bridge without paying through the nose? Either develop your systems or keep your bridges to the singular stars with nothing else around them.
Yeah, the mad dash it's created is unfortunate. Would've preferred it if we could colonise anywhere, but there were some limit like "Only 1 system claim per commander per week." Or even just the "1 claim at a time" that we have now. It would largely avoid the daisy chain/sniping issue without needing extra rules, because with no distance limit people would definitely be able to find good options, they just might need to travel a little farther. The super-high-profile systems would be fought over, sure, but there are basically infinite "still very cool" systems out there.
It would encourage people to develop their systems in depth, rather than abandoning chains of 1-outpost dead-ends. And like I said earlier there'd be the added challenge of hauling long-distance, so you might find your dream system, but you've gotta really put in the work to get that first outpost built. I think casual players would still be able to get an outpost done with something worthwhile near the bubble, too, because there are SO MANY good systems within just a couple hundred LY.
I'm sure there would be other consequences that I haven't thought of, but yeah, the dead-end systems for daisy chains are kinda sticking in my mind as an unfortunate "cluttering" of the bubble.
I like your scaling idea, yeah you could just tie it to building percentage (not building points, or people would be disadvantaged for choosing systems with few bodies). If your system is 100% developed, the next claim is free. If it's only 10% developed, well that's gonna cost you.
That's actually a pretty good idea.
This is what I keep suggesting, allow people to make 100+ ly claims with balancing limitations: you can only make one at a time and even when finished there's a cooldown, you can't daisy chain off of far claims but have to jump from the bubble, etc. I like your idea of cost being less for the next claim if you invest in the current one. Maybe only apply these strict rules for claims 25 ly+ beyond bubble systems.
It would be wonderful if fdev incentivized meaningful claims, allow people to search for what they really want yet it's an investment. So yeah you can claim something far away but it's a special thing so you really better think about it, be ready to commit, get the system up and running, stay with it long term. More of a committed relationship than a cheap wham bam lol.
The only problem seems to be the BGS. I don't know about others but I wouldn't care if I got a 100 ly system and it had limited missions. I'd be more concerned with the bubble turning into the bloat and that growing into a blight on the galaxy map. I'd much rather be able to claim further systems, have to commit to them, things be more spaced out.
Maybe they're planning on allowing greater range? 15 ly could be a stress test to gather data. It's seemed to get some cheaters out of the woodwork thus far.
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Besides it even makes sense lore-wise. I don't think it is explained who actually pays for what, Brewer, the expanding faction etc., bottom line the "architect" is lining his pockets on the whole deal. And doesn't even have the common courtesy to finish the colony? He's being paid to build colonies, not gallivant across the galaxy. Doing a poor job on his colonies should definitely affect his "architect" score and cost increasingly more to land a claim.
Haha right, it really doesn't make sense where all the money is coming from to suddenly expand to hundreds of systems all at once. And yeah, it's like if you hired someone to develop a dozen properties for you and he just built little garden sheds on all of them and then disappeared
...and then built a mansion for himself on the one property he actually wanted lol
Why is everyone so opposed to having long chains of mostly empty systems with a small token starport, broken up by intermittent clusters of development in idyllic locations? This sounds PERFECT to me. It also appears to be what Frontier is actively encouraging with every mechanism they've put in place.
I don't see why anyone should be "forced" to develop the systems they already have. One starport and move on is perfect, because ANYONE can branch off from that if they so choose.
We're going to get these beautiful tendrils like roots expanding outward towards nutrients and then nodes growing around the regions players are most interested in. And there's going to be very noticeable and meaningful variation in style and scope of each area as you travel along these lines through the expanded bubble. There will be new and interesting logistical considerations for moving ships and goods along those lines, and there will always be incentives to expand those small systems, if not the single one in the chain then in a branch off to the side, because large starports give us shipyard access and refuel/restock options for large pads.
People instead want to be able to pick any star system anywhere and claim it in isolation? And they want every player developed space to be fully kitted out? I very much hope Frontier does not listen to any of this. 15ly is fine. 10ly was also already fine. People are in my opinion completely missing the point right now.
I don't see why anyone should be "forced" to develop the systems they already have. One starport and move on is perfect, because ANYONE can branch off from that if they so choose.
We're going to get these beautiful tendrils like roots expanding outward towards nutrients and then nodes growing around the regions players are most interested in. And there's going to be very noticeable and meaningful variation in style and scope of each area as you travel along these lines through the expanded bubble. There will be new and interesting logistical considerations for moving ships and goods along those lines, and there will always be incentives to expand those small systems, if not the single one in the chain then in a branch off to the side, because large starports give us shipyard access and refuel/restock options for large pads.
People instead want to be able to pick any star system anywhere and claim it in isolation? And they want every player developed space to be fully kitted out? I very much hope Frontier does not listen to any of this. 15ly is fine. 10ly was also already fine. People are in my opinion completely missing the point right now.
I get what you're saying, there's a cool aspect to things gradually branching out like that. I think the problem to me is that those systems will forever be locked to one player, so if someone else wants to develop them, it's never gonna happen. A fix could be giving players the option to release a claim if they know they're not interested in expanding it further. Or maybe they need to build at least one new structure per year or something or it goes public, I don't know.
I think my opposition to it is mainly just that it's gonna be SO MANY systems with nothing but 1 outpost, which I don't feel they've really backed up in terms of lore/realism, and it might take away from the feeling of exploration for new players. Although certainly there will always be "out in the black" space - we have no chance of ever filling every single system.
Edit: Just to add, I think that even if we could colonize systems without having to chain, people would still definitely build those highways you're talking about. There's no doubt in my mind that there will be a very healthy bridge between the bubble and Colonia for example, chains or no chains, which I'm definitely excited to see.
To fully develop a system doesn't have to be forced, it can be incentivized for people who want to claim something far away. No reason to approach this with black and white extremes of eliminate the 15 ly restriction/chaining or never let people claim beyond 15 ly/keep it how it is. There are ways to allow people to claim further, with restrictions and incentives to commit to those claims. I'm sure there's plenty of people who would rather work on one or two systems they like far away than settle for something in the FOMO crammed bubble or have to chain out to something they want with the risk of it getting taken.
It's too early to be saying they shouldn't be listening to any of these suggestions. I've acknowledged in my own posts that maybe the 15 ly thing is a test and they have plans for allowing players to go further. I'd hope people keep an open mind about the possibilities, not that things need to stay how they are because that's how they currently are. I don't expect miracles from the devs because the game was in a sort of mothball state for awhile. It probably takes some time to add new features. Some expansion to the colonization system, eventually, would be nice though.
Why not allow both play styles to exist? Keep the 15 ly thing going but allow for far claims with conditions that you can only make one at a time and it requires a commitment. Those who want to stay close to the bubble and build it up or build chains can do that. Those who want to commit to something far away can do that. Other than the work it would take to code the single 100+ ly claim variant and its conditions it wouldn't effect the game or anyone else's fun.
I think a perma 15 ly limit would lead to burn out. The frantic nature of limited claims/FOMO/sniping will wear thin. That can be alleviated by integrating further claims somehow.
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I still don't get it I guess. To me, there's nothing dumber than having some random heavily developed system out in the middle of nowhere with nothing connected to it and no plausible explanation for how and why people would be out there or where the supply lines are coming from or anything like that.
The system as it is now will develop organically in interesting ways and we'll get things like districts and neighborhoods out of it.
You really can't have both. Opening up the colonization range completely breaks the daisy chain concept and turns it into play acting. Yeah sure some people will build some links just to have stopover spots but it'll be a fundamentally different thing (and in my opinion: much more hokey and artificial feeling).
The idea that there would be some mechanism to build a further colony "but only one at a time and with a commitment" is I think, unworkable. There's already a way to build farther out and it DOES require a commitment, which is building the chain. Anything which is easier and less of a commitment than that, is just doing an end run around the existing play system. It's easy to say that there would be "choice" but no. There wouldn't be, because in order to produce a "choice" that is satisfying to the people asking for it, the option would have to be easier faster and require fewer resources than the "choice" they have right now, which they are rejecting.
I think the frantic part will die down, as you say. And I hope Frontier can do something about "sniping," even if it's just giving the system architect and/or the top 3 hauling contributors a 24 hour grace period to make claims from the new station or something. But the 15ly thing is powerful and valuable. It ensures interconnectivity between new colonies in a way that you wouldn't get otherwise. It also helps ensure that each new piece added into the map becomes a useable play space for everyone.
Anyway. We'll see. I hope Frontier leave it as it is for a while at least. I don't think anybody knows for sure how this will play out, but it'll take a while before we see the shape of things. I'd rather let it run as-is for at least a couple months, ideally a year, before declaring it broken and stupid and in need of fundamental drastic changes. It's really the players and their inclinations (or lack thereof) towards communication and self organization that are going to make all the difference here.
Systems being forever locked to one player is kinda the whole point. But let's remember that long term, individual players probably aren't going to be building all their own stations. The architect lays out the build orders and then everyone contributes. Or not. Yes there will certainly be plenty of players who claim a system or two and then leave it alone, but it's not hard to pick a few station build sites for all your daisy chain links even if you have no intention of working on them, and I think most people will want to do so (although the recent "discount" debacle certainly throws a wrench into this a little bit).
What we're likely to see is a lot of single station systems with a lot of construction sites in them. And this will be a hauler's paradise, hopefully. Many places to haul goods and sell them at high prices, and the knowledge that every item you sell is helping to bring another facility to completion. And as each link in the chain comes further and further online, there will be more goods to buy and sell and trade further up the chain to aid in building out of progressively more and more remote sites. I really don't think it's going to be a problem.
I think mostly we just have a lot of people being very precious and territorial about their intended colonization sites, who have secret spots picked out, and now they're upset that they can't instantly nail down a specific spot without gradually working their way in that direction and revealing it to other people who might be interested.
Idunno maybe there's something I'm missing. Looking at the system Frontier has created here, the way it seems like it would play out over time is to my mind's eye much more appealing than the thing people seem to be asking for.
It's worth remembering that System Architects, while they do take a sense of ownership of a system, are in the end just guiding the construction of playspaces for everyone else.
You are woefully optimistic to the point of delusion. Nobody is going to actually care to develop a system they snagged up purely for the sake of bridging. Most players are going to get bored the instant they've finished their personal project. Look at the number of players and groups who filled out the PMF form, spread to a couple of systems, then completely disappeared off the face of the earth.
If stations with only the outpost could be released once done that would be nice, but I doubt most would even lift their finger to press that button.
The key is that you said "to me". This isn't about any one person but appealing to the community at large, which a good amount of people have expressed how they would like further claims or an improvement to the current system. Just because you don't like that idea doesn't mean others don't. I'm not a big fan of the 15 ly cram and perpetual risky daisy chains yet I don't care that others are and that the mechanic exists. The thing about games is there are usually ways to integrate different play styles. I hope the devs are considering all input. I'm not gonna tell you that yours is wrong and shouldn't be considered. Why does it bother you if people want to play act or have their favorite system, aren't into what you like? There would still be plenty of people who do the bubble chaining thing. Especially if long range claims are limited. It would just be nice if there were more ways to colonize, which I keep saying. Not to hate on the current system yet it is a beta so opinions are going to be expressed on desired changes and improvements.
As for realism/explanations, it doesn't make sense that humanity would be concentrated into a "bubble" that far in the future with all that tech. There would certainly be many outposts if just for research reasons. Humanity in the real world spends crazy money just to send probes into the far solar system. With FTL travel you better believe humanity would be exploring the far corners of the galaxy and setting up small shops here and there. It's not like fast travel and abundant resources don't exist in the game world yet I don't blame the game for being what it is because for design limitation reasons they had to start with a "bubble". Maybe it's time for the bubble centric universe to evolve and change though. I bet if the majority of players were given the chance to claim systems 100+ ly away they would take it. It's human instinct to want to explore and get out there. It's one of the reasons this game is more popular than the other space sims, it's the milky way. It's only beat out in that regard by literal sims like space engine.
Again the issue with daisy chaining to get far out is that for many players it is a means to an end, a grind, and will burn people out. There is also the risk of people sniping which turns the system into more of a mad FOMO dash. The existing system is beta too keep in mind. We should not be holding on to it like it is gospel because betas are used to test and change things. I think you underestimate peoples' passion for exploration and finding their favorite systems. This is plain wrong-"There wouldn't be, because in order to produce a "choice" that is satisfying to the people asking for it, the option would have to be easier faster and require fewer resources than the "choice" they have right now, which they are rejecting."
It assumes everyone is lazy and has no labor of love. I would bet plenty of people would trade in the FOMO dashes or chain grinding to choose a system they really want and apply the work to that. It makes no sense that the choice has to be easier for people to be satisfied. People reject grinds and toils when the grind outweighs the pay off. Which we're gonna see happen if people have to chain everywhere and keep getting sniped.
I wouldn't want to create a system where a person has to do lots of numbing work to chain systems and other players are waiting for the final stepping stone to be completed so they can rush the last system. That's kind of toxic. Allowing everyone to make at least one far away claim without having to chain could solve that problem. Expanding the base range would solve it. You may not see the use in it but it wouldn't effect your gameplay. If you want to create a neighborly chain you could do that. As for connectivity, I don't think everyone cares about that or if anything they care about the opposite-the bubble getting cluttered with forgotten stepping stones. This is a game touted as a 1-1 milky way, it's a game greatly about exploring. There's a lot of people who want to explore and carve out a neat system.
I could counter argue the neighborhood/connectivity point with a daisy chain is ugly and it would be cool to find lone systems shining out in the black, it would certainly feel more unique for explorers to encounter them than simply something growing out of the bubble. It's like a congested city approach vs wide tracks of open land speckled with settlements (ironically a true "frontier"). Now I don't know who said the current system is stupid and all that, I didn't. I said there's room for improvement and far claims would be nice. Maybe every player gets only one or maybe you have to earn claim credits by developing bubble systems. Give people claim credits for a 100 ly claim when they haul goods to any colonization ship = incentivize people to help others build their systems, while also earning credit/merit to someday make a far away claim. Put in the grinding work with a goal, with a labor of love approach, to someday get your "ranch" far away from the congested city.
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yep, but the problem is (at least as I tried tody) an Architect seems to be able to place one project a time per system only.
I was surprised, as I read somewhere in here that one could place up to 5 Constructions simultaniosly per system.....