News Chapter Four Exploration Recap

who?

who?
(Still kicking this dead horse..)

Continuing on from Genar-Hofoen's excellent point early on - I'm concerned that this sensor view could end up being very repetitive. There's a world of difference between popping into sensor view occasionally when you're on the hunt for something, and having to do in every single unexplored system you pass through (* IF you're actually exploring, and not just honk 'n' jumping without even looking at the System Map).

A half-way compromise (honk discovers all stars and perhaps larger bodies, the sensor view could be used then to discover smaller bodies around these) might help.

A LOT depends on how the sensor view actually looks/works.

- If it's a 2D view (something akin to the existing System Map, but with extra bells 'n' whistles), then I'd be worried about how repetitive that will be. It'll be much the same view over and over again each time you jump to a new system. Like watching a movie, where the first few seconds of every single scene are exactly the same. Unfortunately, I suspect this is what it'll look like.

- Much better (fantasy land) the sensor view would be a 3D view, projected onto your visor. You can move and look around by manoeuvring the ship and using head-look. It could even be a "VR" view, where your ship is invisible so you have unrestricted vision.

- A HUD overlay/filter. This is the best from a gameplay perspective, since you have access to all the other HUD info (scanner/threats, contacts, fuel levels, heat levels, current location, proximity threats etc....)
 

who?

who?
Factabulous said:
You should read / listen to some of the responses to the new scanning mechanism from those who went to FD and actually saw it - then you can leave those poor deceased Equus alone.
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I've read positive feedback, but not any details (I assume they can't reveal any specifics). Any links? :)

That's why I'm here, kicking this horse. Which is 'resting'. Yeah, 'resting'. The Norwegian Blue horses stun easily....
 

Alec Turner

Alec Turner
who? said:
(Still kicking this dead horse..)

Continuing on from Genar-Hofoen's excellent point early on - I'm concerned that this sensor view could end up being very repetitive. There's a world of difference between popping into sensor view occasionally when you're on the hunt for something, and having to do in every single unexplored system you pass through (* IF you're actually exploring, and not just honk 'n' jumping without even looking at the System Map).

A half-way compromise (honk discovers all stars and perhaps larger bodies, the sensor view could be used then to discover smaller bodies around these) might help.

A LOT depends on how the sensor view actually looks/works.

- If it's a 2D view (something akin to the existing System Map, but with extra bells 'n' whistles), then I'd be worried about how repetitive that will be. It'll be much the same view over and over again each time you jump to a new system. Like watching a movie, where the first few seconds of every single scene are exactly the same. Unfortunately, I suspect this is what it'll look like.

- Much better (fantasy land) the sensor view would be a 3D view, projected onto your visor. You can move and look around by manoeuvring the ship and using head-look. It could even be a "VR" view, where your ship is invisible so you have unrestricted vision.

- A HUD overlay/filter. This is the best from a gameplay perspective, since you have access to all the other HUD info (scanner/threats, contacts, fuel levels, heat levels, current location, proximity threats etc....)
Click to expand...

Factabulous said:
You should read / listen to some of the responses to the new scanning mechanism from those who went to FD and actually saw it - then you can leave those poor deceased Equus alone.
Click to expand...

To be fair who's concerns ARE valid. I loved what I saw of the new interface and am really looking forward to using it BUT ... will it be repetitive after you've used it 200 times? (or what's an average trip to Sag A*? 500?) ... hard to predict. As I've said elsewhere I reckon' right now FD just want us to try out the new interface as it stands. My only hope is that if, after extensive beta testing, the large majority of people still feel the same about wanting to see some kind of (maybe partial) system map after the honk, that they're willing to back down a little and consider implementing something like that.
 

Alec Turner

Alec Turner
Ziggy Stardust said:
Yeah I know.

Stupid buckyball [sad]
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Meet Bucky, he don't like it when people call his club stupid!

dUem1TL.gif
 

who?

who?
picommander said:
One more note about the possible repetitiveness. What I really don't get is the currently somewhat prominent attitude that a quickly executed, guaranteed repetitive action would be generally better then a potential more sophisticated one would be, even if the latter most likely will be more interesting - at least in the initial period. Since the former is much quicker, you'll naturally have way more opportunity of repetition in a given unit of time. Has anyone ever looked at it from this angle?

Everything in a game that is interesting at first will lose its appeal over time, that's pretty much unavoidable. The HONK is an exception at that, as it never was interesting to begin with. Howsoever, is that reason enough to refuse any interesting mechanics at all? That's pretty much what FD has done over the last couple of years with their bare bone placeholder philosophy (which I still tend to defend as an unavoidably result of incremental game design). I still have a lot patience with this approach but I'm not all too pleased with its results anymore, something need to show up by now and these new scanning mechanics were a first sign to me that exactly this would happen from now on.
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Oh, absolutely. My concern is - while the honk is 100% skill-free and repetitive - it's only 5 seconds of repetitive. Plus, while you're honking, you can be checking your scanner, navigating into scooping range, targeting the arrival star for a detailed scan.

The new system could involve several minutes in a modal sensor view, doing nothing else, only to eventually discover there was nothing interesting in the system to start with.

I'm completely in favour of an exploration revamp, I'm just a little concerned with how it'll be done.

Did... did you just see the horse's lips move? I swear its lips moved. Something like... "kill...... me....."
 

rOmiLaYu

rOmiLaYu
who? said:
Oh, absolutely. My concern is - while the honk is 100% skill-free and repetitive - it's only 5 seconds of repetitive. Plus, while you're honking, you can be checking your scanner, navigating into scooping range, targeting the arrival star for a detailed scan.

The new system could involve several minutes in a modal sensor view, doing nothing else, only to eventually discover there was nothing interesting in the system to start with.

I'm completely in favour of an exploration revamp, I'm just a little concerned with how it'll be done.
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And am I crazy, or did I read somewhere that this new scanner will only function in normal space? Meaning that we will have to drop out of supercruise to use it. Is that right?
 

Alec Turner

Alec Turner
Somebody should make a party game around this. You draw a fact from a deck of cards and then have to describe it to your team mates under nda, without referring to any specifics. If you do then the opposing team can call "NDA!" and you lose. If your own team jump to more than three wrong conclusions during their interogation or if they otherwise misinterpret your words you lose. When the bell goes off your team say what you were trying to describe. If they get it wrong, you lose.

ND9SiID.png


picommander said:
So if I read the meaning behind your words correctly, your former statement about an "easy solution" (about the ADS, under "certain circumstances", you know what I mean) was just owed to the beer? You already implied that you are not quite happy with that statement which I've got to respect of course. But please allow me one last question: Was it something that actually existed and you "saw" with your own eyes? Or was it just something that came up in your mind, maybe by interpolating some musings of the devs or something like that?

Honest question, out of sheer curiosity, really. It's certainly not my intend to nail you on something unpleasant or winning the internet.

Please bear with me if you've already explained this point, I'm currently not able to read everything and most likely missing a lot of infos.
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Yes I'd had beer. However, there is a "thing", a tiny tweak (which actually exists and which I didn't find in the bottom of my glass) to the basic concept of the ADS and of not being able to see a filled in system map until you've used the new scanning interface which MAY satisfy some people (but probably not all). I quite like it for it's simplicity and also because it gives added purpose to the act of "discovery". It may well have already been suggested by others prior to last weeks visit but I personally hadn't seen it before.

One more note about the possible repetitiveness. What I really don't get is the currently somewhat prominent attitude that a quickly executed, guaranteed repetitive action would be generally better then a potential more sophisticated one would be, even if the latter most likely will be more interesting - at least in the initial period. Since the former is much quicker, you'll naturally have way more opportunity of repetition in a given unit of time. Has anyone ever looked at it from this angle?
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:eek: You just won the internet!

Everything in a game that is interesting at first will lose its appeal over time, that's pretty much unavoidable. The HONK is an exception at that, as it never was interesting to begin with. Howsoever, is that reason enough to refuse any interesting mechanics at all? That's pretty much what FD has done over the last couple of years with their bare bone placeholder philosophy (which I still tend to defend as an unavoidably result of incremental game design). I still have a lot patience with this approach but I'm not all too pleased with its results anymore, something need to show up by now and these new scanning mechanics were a first sign to me that exactly this would happen from now on.

I think the true reason for the often repeated refusal mainly due to the fact that deep space exploring seems the holy grail to some and therefore everything, even potentially in the way of it, has to suffer.

I'd say it's high time for a general change of design direction and down with the dictatorial attitudes of some of our deep space explorers!

Now you lot can kill me, meanwhile I feel like a dead horse anyway.
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Good post, like it and food for thought on the way we think about things!
 

who?

who?
Alec Turner said:
Somebody should make a party game around this. You draw a fact from a deck of cards and then have to describe it to your team mates under nda, without referring to any specifics. If you do then the opposing team can call "NDA!" and you lose. If your own team jump to more than three wrong conclusions during their interogation or if they otherwise misinterpret your words you lose. When the bell goes off your team say what you were trying to describe. If they get it wrong, you lose.
Click to expand...

SPACE LEGS CONFIRMED!

What do I win?
 

Genar-Hofoen

Genar-Hofoen
picommander said:
One more note about the possible repetitiveness. What I really don't get is the currently somewhat prominent attitude that a quickly executed, guaranteed repetitive action would be generally better then a potential more sophisticated one would be, even if the latter most likely will be more interesting - at least in the initial period. Since the former is much quicker, you'll naturally have way more opportunity of repetition in a given unit of time. Has anyone ever looked at it from this angle?
Click to expand...

Yes, I have looked at it from that angle, repeatedly pointing out that it won't matter if it looks really cool and snazzy and sophisticated. The trouble with really cool and snazzy and sophisticated, is that it works when you see it in a movie - it works in a movie because generally you only see it happen once or twice, then the movie goes on with the rest of the story and you never see that cool, sophisticated sequence ever again (unless you rewatch the movie).

For a game, it's different, in that you'll be forced to go through that same, snazzy, really cool, sophisticated sequence repeatedly. For every single new star system you jump into. After a while you're going to be getting bored of it, because it'll turn into a drudge, and you'll be wishing the process took less time.


picommander said:
Everything in a game that is interesting at first will lose its appeal over time, that's pretty much unavoidable.
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It really depends on the context of the process or task you want to accomplish. Take driving around scavenging for materials in an SRV as an example - that's a repeating task but you aren't forced to do it in every single gaming session or in every single star system you jump into, and it's only needed to be done if you're needing to do it. In other words, it's an activity which is done more or less when you feel like doing it.

picommander said:
The HONK is an exception at that, as it never was interesting to begin with.
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The honk wasn't interesting, indeed. I agree! But as per above, if you attempt to make it somehow more interesting, by introducing some sort of sophistication into the honk, and this takes up a lot more time to achieve the same end result as the less 'interesting' honk, then, well, read above. It may be a Cool Movie Moment, but seeing as you're going to be forced to do this task every time you visit a new star system, guaranteed that's going to wear a lot of players down.


picommander said:
Howsoever, is that reason enough to refuse any interesting mechanics at all?
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For the reasoning made above, yes! Some tasks are better left unaltered. If I had my way, you'd perhaps at least change the graphical representation of the ADS honk to maybe show a HUD popup with a 3D representation of the star system, which starts from a PING emanating from a central point which is your ship, some cool 3D wave rushing out from that point, and various 'echoes' appearing in the HUD, representing the bodies in that system.

To me, that would 1) Make the ADS honk more graphically interesting, and 2) Would be a Movie Moment which wouldn't wear people down because it would be a forced repetitive task which was at least entertaining.

picommander said:
I think the true reason for the often repeated refusal is mainly due to the fact that deep space exploring seems the holy grail to some and therefore everything, even potentially in the way of it, has to suffer.
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FDEV provided a game universe which is basically a whole galaxy comprising of 400 billion star systems - deep space exploration isn't a holy grail, it's a byproduct of providing that universe to explore. Also, 'suffer'?


picommander said:
I'd say it's high time for a general change of design direction and down with the dictatorial attitudes of some of our deep space explorers!
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I'm somewhat puzzled by this apparently hostile attitude - I'll treat it as humour though :)


picommander said:
Now you lot can kill me, meanwhile I feel like a dead horse anyway. [knocked out]
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No need to kill you - everyone has their opinion and it'll be up to Frontier to act on the opinions or not if they agree or disagree with them :)
 

who?

who?
picommander said:
The main point of my post was, that in general (including real life traveling for instance) I prefer 30 minutes that feel like real life, over the same distance crossed in 5 minutes that feels like nothing - at any time! I have no car since 2006 to underline this statement. Shrinking it to 5 seconds wouldn't make it any better, it's still... nothing, no life, no fun. I'm quite aware that I'm pretty much alone with this mindset and I'm fighting windmills here. But what else is there to do for a dead horse like me? [knocked out]

Another dead horse is "the way is the goal". Is this old saying really not understood anymore in these days?
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For me it's all about the quality of that time. If the sensor mode is interesting / fun / involved (where for me "interesting" and "fun" means complex, with decision trees, making observations and changing settings based on the sensor feedback. E.g. changing spectra, or adjusting to filter for specific elements etc.) then I'm perfectly happy spending hours to scan one system.

If they're replacing 5 seconds of zero-skill gameplay (the honk) with a few minutes of minimal skill, twiddle-the-sticks back-and-forth routine gameplay, I'm not sure that's a huge step forward.

At this point, all we can do is wait and see. And blame the horse.
 
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