Combat Logging Punishment Proposal

[gorankar]

Stupid question, perhaps, but:

When an opponent clogs, isn't that a win? Doesn't that resemble giving up, rolling over, playing dead? Doesn't that give the winner the same satisfaction, or maybe even more?

View attachment 159945

A ship disappearing is not quite as satisfying as one blowing up. You also do not gain any bounty they may have had, materials, rank progression, or Arx to offset or recompense you for your repair/rearm bill.

Never had it happen to me, at least not for certain, but it would annoy me if it did.

 

[WeComeInPeace]

A ship disappearing is not quite as satisfying as one blowing up. You also do not gain any bounty they may have had, materials, rank progression, or Arx to offset or recompense you for your repair/rearm bill.

Never had it happen to me, at least not for certain, but it would annoy me if it did.

I get that, and of course I agree, but with my so far limited experience in PvP I have a strange feeling that PvP is also classical "who's got the biggest balls?", and in cases where that is the goal, I would find it equally satisfying to see the opponent run, or even clog. Also, once you reach a level where PvP isn't instant dead, then bounties, rank progression etc. seems secondary? Rearm bill? Nah. This is all about comparing balls, and when you clog you leave your balls hanging in outer space where you left them. I wise man once told me that when you win, never kick the downed opponent.

This is not an attempt to defend cloggers. It's just that if people pull the plug, they lost, and they did so while embarrassing themselves. I think that serves as some sort of compensation for the sick urge of actually seeing someone blow up that some of us develop by playing this despicable game

 

[Riverside]

There are two ways to leave the game while the ship is in danger. One is to wait out the timer, the other is to force a disconnect. FDev describe these as graceful & ungraceful disconnects.

Any game has rules that cover different eventualities. We have a rule for graceful disconnects, it has known consequences. I think there should be a clearly established rule for ungraceful disconnects, again with known consequences. That way a disconnect of any type simply becomes part of the game. Currently there seems only a vague implication of an unspecified infraction with no reliable evidence that it is enforced.

 

[WeComeInPeace]

There are two ways to leave the game while the ship is in danger. One is to wait out the timer, the other is to force a disconnect.

Or you could wait and face whatever is going to happen. Another option is to fight as long as you dare, end then chicken out by waking, as indicated by the "1%" screen capture in my previous post. It was mixed feelings getting back to Jameson in one piece. I survived but I ran. IRL that would be the clever thing to do, even before firing the first shot in many cases, but one of the first things I was taught entering this forum, was that roles in the game didn't reflect the RL people playing the game. I'm still not convinced about that.

I'm slowly starting playing in open, after ~1500 hours in solo. I happily accept any interdiction now, and I enjoy PvP, but when I started playing the game, open was terrifying. I can accept some teenager with too much testosterone clogging if I manage to overwhelm his skills. Then I go: Awr... That's cute

 

[Riverside]

Or you could wait and face whatever is going to happen. Another option is to fight as long as you dare, end then chicken out by waking, as indicated by the "1%" screen capture in my previous post. It was mixed feelings getting back to Jameson in one piece. I survived but I ran. IRL that would be the clever thing to do, even before firing the first shot in many cases, but one of the first things I was taught entering this forum, was that roles in the game didn't reflect the RL people playing the game. I'm still not convinced about that.

I'm slowly starting playing in open, after ~1500 hours in solo. I happily accept any interdiction now, and I enjoy PvP, but when I started playing the game, open was terrifying. I can accept some teenager with too much testosterone clogging if I manage to overwhelm his skills. Then I go: Awr... That's cute

Firstly:

There are two ways to leave the game while the ship is in danger.

This thread deals with what happens when the player leaves the game.

I'm not a PvP player, I just play in Open and have done for years. I don't CLog, it doesn't occur to me. I just deal with whatever comes at me good or bad (overwhelmingly good) and if anyone ever CLogged on me either I didn't notice or it didn't affect my game enough to be memorable.

Games have rules & some of those rules handle what happens if a player rage quits. But there are two ways to do it & only one has a rule with a known consequence, a reason to consider the dilemma of whether to quit or stay & get the ship to a safe state.

 

[Northpin]

Stupid question, perhaps, but:

When an opponent clogs, isn't that a win? Doesn't that resemble giving up, rolling over, playing dead? Doesn't that give the winner the same satisfaction, or maybe even more?

View attachment 159945

Nope. One doesn't really win if the opponents doesn't lose more than what the winner wins. Ultimate win would be a clear save for the opponent.
If the opponents doesn't lose anything it's not even a win.

Oh, wait. Something is wrong there.

 

[WeComeInPeace]

Nope. One doesn't really win if the opponents doesn't lose more than what the winner wins. Ultimate win would be a clear save for the opponent.
If the opponents doesn't lose anything it's not even a win.

Oh, wait. Something is wrong there.

We could all wear small copper bracelets connected to a high voltage capacitor that was discharged whenever we got hit. That would be fun! And over our seats there could be a bucket of manure being emptied when someone pulls the plug. That of course would assume that our ISPs got their acts together, and that wifi and tcpip got slightly more stable, which would probably demand a complete redesign of literally everything. But hey, anything to get a visual on the opponent escaping in the invincible escape pod

 

[Misty_Dark]

We could all wear small copper bracelets connected to a high voltage capacitor that was discharged whenever we got hit. That would be fun! And over our seats there could be a bucket of manure being emptied when someone pulls the plug. That of course would assume that our ISPs got their acts together, and that wifi and tcpip got slightly more stable, which would probably demand a complete redesign of literally everything. But hey, anything to get a visual on the opponent escaping in the invincible escape pod

Something like this?
We share your pain

 

[Urfin]

We could all wear small copper bracelets connected to a high voltage capacitor that was discharged whenever we got hit. That would be fun! And over our seats there could be a bucket of manure being emptied when someone pulls the plug. That of course would assume that our ISPs got their acts together, and that wifi and tcpip got slightly more stable, which would probably demand a complete redesign of literally everything. But hey, anything to get a visual on the opponent escaping in the invincible escape pod

In Eve, the ship just remains in space if you disconnect. Problem solved. You have a ty internet connection? Sucks to be you. ¯\(ツ)/¯

 

[OMNIGOD66]

While Griefers and/or PvP Players all like to gloat that other Players Combat Log, when you look at whom they're attacking then it becomes clear that they're simply looking to manipulate the Devs into giving them some leverage to force players to allow them to Kill them unceremoniously for their own pleasure.

I've been a proponent for Open Only, with Solo/Private having no effect on the BGS or Influence of a System. People cried out in protest when the Devs took it into consideration. When the Crime & Punishment structure was added to the game ALL the Griefers & PvP players promised to quit Elite, but they're still here.

Now here comes the retribution the Griefers and PvP Players have been begging for...To Somehow Punish Players who are their targets if they don't let them Kill them and take their Cargo, or just send them to the Re-Buy screen because they can.

Devs, don't fall for this Crap. Griefers and PvP players want nothing more than to trap unsuspecting players in a no win scenario, in which they can jump Harmless, Novice, & Expert players, knowing that if they are forced to combat log they will be severely punished.

The decision is yours Devs.

 

[Zcorruption]

Just leave ships in space if a player logs off in an instance with another player. If they combat log they blow up. Simple

 

[Riverside]

I'm afraid it's something you'll have to learn to live with for whatever time remains for this game. I doubt it'll ever change.

I haven't bumped this thread, others have following another thread in DD recently. I don't think learning to live with the current situation is particularly useful commentary since clearly it is self evident. Similarly 'you should give up' is not an attitude appropriate to a proposal thread in my view.

There is a missing rule, the situation does not appear to have changed since this thread was started so it is still a relevant proposal to close that loophole/exploit, just as one to eliminate instance flipping (most notably at places like Dav's Hope) with a correspondingly rebalanced spawn rate is still relevant. Whether it is important or urgent is up to FDev as you imply, I believe this is both important and urgent.

This thread was initially started in the immediate aftermath of the 5 for 1 engineering exploit clampdown as a way for FDev to be evenhanded in their approach, at the time the implication seemed to be that action would be forthcoming. They have since closed the mission board flipping exploit/loophole which is excellent news in my view, but other exploits remain, apparently including this one, although it was (again) implied that a solution has since been applied.

Thank you for reading the initial post, it is more than many seem to do. I am not actively pushing this thread though, and perhaps reading the last few pages may help to clear that up for you, one way or another.

 

[Misty_Dark]

I haven't bumped this thread, others have following another thread in DD recently. I don't think learning to live with the current situation is particularly useful commentary since clearly it is self evident. Similarly 'you should give up' is not an attitude appropriate to a proposal thread in my view.

There is a missing rule, the situation does not appear to have changed since this thread was started so it is still a relevant proposal to close that loophole/exploit, just as one to eliminate instance flipping (most notably at places like Dav's Hope) with a correspondingly rebalanced spawn rate is still relevant. Whether it is important or urgent is up to FDev as you imply, I believe this is both important and urgent.

This thread was initially started in the immediate aftermath of the 5 for 1 engineering exploit clampdown as a way for FDev to be evenhanded in their approach, at the time the implication seemed to be that action would be forthcoming. They have since closed the mission board flipping exploit/loophole which is excellent news in my view, but other exploits remain, apparently including this one, although it was (again) implied that a solution has since been applied.

Thank you for reading the initial post, it is more than many seem to do. I am not actively pushing this thread though, and perhaps reading the last few pages may help to clear that up for you, one way or another.

What loophole are you talking about?

 

[Riverside]

What loophole are you talking about?

I mentioned several in the post you quoted. So all of them I guess? In general I think games should have a set of rules that cover all eventualities, and when loopholes or exploits are discovered they should be closed so players do not come to consider them as normal. Rage Quitting is a fairly common & well established behaviour for which rules are normally established.

 

[Misty_Dark]

I mentioned several in the post you quoted. So all of them I guess? In general I think games should have a set of rules that cover all eventualities, and when loopholes or exploits are discovered they should be closed so players do not come to consider them as normal. Rage Quitting is a fairly common & well established behaviour for which rules are normally established.

And on most games in those situations have a wastly different view on PvP and in many cases a different network design.

So failing to understanding such basic design differences between different games will lead to flawed suggestions to a problem... that in many cases can be argued is not a very huge deal to begin with...

 

[Riverside]

And on most games in those situations have a wastly different view on PvP and in many cases a different network design.

So failing to understanding such basic design differences between different games will lead to flawed suggestions to a problem... that in many cases can be argued is not a very huge deal to begin with...

If you don't think it's a big deal fair enough I think it's a big deal, I did before other exploits were acted upon, I did when they were & I still do. My preferred solution would be one that doesn't meaningfully impact on those that are not trying to cynically find a way around the game rules.

This thread contains quite a lot of information from posters far more knowledgeable than me, I have learned a lot since I started it and my view has evolved with that information.

 

[Misty_Dark]

If you don't think it's a big deal fair enough I think it's a big deal, I did before other exploits were acted upon, I did when they were & I still do. My preferred solution would be one that doesn't meaningfully impact on those that are not trying to cynically find a way around the game rules.

This thread contains quite a lot of information from posters far more knowledgeable than me, I have learned a lot since I started it and my view has evolved with that information.

So what is the real impact here? Who are the ones that uses this so called loophole? and what impact does have on the overall game? It would be a big deal is PvP was the MAIN purpose of this game, but that is not case, and if you believe that PvP is what the majority of the players in Elite do, then you are very misinformed.... We know this by statements made by FDev. We can also see the evidence in player run activities.

Distant Worlds 2, over 10 000 signed up players... what other activity have gathered that many players? When I asked before about big PvP events, I hardly got any events to list, and then few ones that was listed where more of an handful of players, up to maybe 100-200 players. So conclusion on the overall scale on game impact, this does not appear to be a big problem.
And with the generous option to block players that you do not want to instance with, this is problem that now can be reduced alot more...

So if we ignore all the PvE uses of this... players escaping death from environment/NPC...

So then we have a few PvP situations.

Player engage another player in PvP, most likely by interdicting the other player, and the victim, could straight away or rather sooner than later, decide to pull the plug...
Now one or BOTH player, can block the other player. So from a game perspective, both player could consider the other player dead, as they are now very unlikely to encounter each other again...
Impact on this is very low, one player did not get to see the other go up in an explosion... and it is most likely the victim is the one that would block the aggressor... so even with rules you can only play in the previous mode for the next 1-2 hours etc, the block would essentially hide that player from the other player, despite if the other decided to stick around and wait...


Ganker attacks weak player, other players comes to defend the player, and ganker pulls the plug. Nothing changes, we all know the ganker is wuss, and facing real opposition is not their idea of fun... so just as in the previous example, ganker can block the defenders and is less likely to encounter them again... so ganker can keep on preying on weak victims, while keep blocking or the defending players...


Before blocking, the situations was different, as now you did not many options to opt out of being other players content. Now you can, and thus this whole debate about pulling the plug in a non competetive PvP game is mostly useless...as the impact is most likely negligible on the overall game experience for the vast majority of players.

 

[Riverside]

If an individual thinks this is not a problem then as long as any solution proposed doesn't impact them negatively it seems to me there is little to say.

The problem, such as it is is described in post #60 by Red_Anders, it was linked in the OP as post #61 (this thread pre-dates the forum change).

If you don't think this is a problem that needs fixing that's fine, I do. If you don't understand why someone may think this is a problem I can only encourage you to read the thread & hopefully one of the many times this question has been asked before will help to clarify.

I suppose in a nutshell I could say that there is a 15 sec timer for a graceful exit while the ship is in danger, so FDev think it's something important enough to have a rule for, and they have stated before that they have a solution for punishing CLogging too, although I don't see it having much of a deterrent factor.

If you haven't already, and have questions, please read through the thread. You may well find that your question (or suggestion or objection) has been raised before.

 

[Riverside]

These players who combat log should be RESTRICTED TO SOLO, not banned - don't let them log into OPEN (there's your solution - ban access to OPEN for an hour or more when the plug has been pulled). Fair enough? Great!

I'm not looking for anyone to be banned either. I think if players have an accidental ungraceful disconnect they might not be too happy about being restricted to solo, I don't think anyone accidentally disconnecting would have a problem with having to log back into the mode they left though, plus that way it has the added benefit that there is a dis-incentive to deliberately CLog.

 

[Misty_Dark]

If an individual thinks this is not a problem then as long as any solution proposed doesn't impact them negatively it seems to me there is little to say.

The problem, such as it is is described in post #60 by Red_Anders, it was linked in the OP as post #61 (this thread pre-dates the forum change).

If you don't think this is a problem that needs fixing that's fine, I do. If you don't understand why someone may think this is a problem I can only encourage you to read the thread & hopefully one of the many times this question has been asked before will help to clarify.

I suppose in a nutshell I could say that there is a 15 sec timer for a graceful exit while the ship is in danger, so FDev think it's something important enough to have a rule for, and they have stated before that they have a solution for punishing CLogging too, although I don't see it having much of a deterrent factor.

If you haven't already, and have questions, please read through the thread. You may well find that your question (or suggestion or objection) has been raised before.

So then we are still back on the issue, is this really a game changing issue that is problematic to the game? The only thing that post really brings up, is how you can go about to detect this. I have not issue with what is described to detect the situation, that is basically how I envisioned what Karma system would be like...



Say we add the you must log back into the previous mode where you disgracefully disconnected. So I prey of weak victims and you roam the system as a white knight defending the innocent... so you see me interdict some innocent princess in a sidewinder, as the white knight, you decide to save the princess and be the hero you aspire to be, so me being a weak coward, I soon realise that I will most likely loose against you, so do spend my time killing the Princess and then disgracefully leave the fight, before you can revenge the poor princess ... Now the game now locks me to Open (same game mode) for X amount of time... I can now choose to use the block function, to BLOCK you.. So now when I login again, we are NOT instanced together, even if you stay and wait.... and I can go back at killing the innocent princesses again...
So what have we now solved? basically nothing... I killed the princess and you failed to killed me... and now you cannot find me...


So lets deal with the next obvious new rule... new additions to the block list does not apply for X amount of time... so that I cannot simply block,. giving you the option to wait for me to re-appear... So I can do something like this now....

• I simply wait it out, most likely by playing another game, I get bonus points if you actually stay and wait for me.. if you do not, then what have I to fear to log back in?
• I have another account, I simply switched accounts, and now when I see you in the system, I can now block you on my second account too, and then change instances and now you are gone...

So what have really changed this time?


So lets leave the ganker use case and move on to the ordinary PvE player in open... those who have very little to no interrest in PvP...
With all the stories about the imbalance between heavilly engineered ships, built to kill other player ships, and what ship builds normal player tend use. So there is no suprise that such a player could get really scared if they get interdicted by another player, fearing it is a ganker, and that it will be over in seconds once the interdiction is over.... so they resort to the only option they now to save their ship... disgraceful exit... as the exit to menu would be to slow...
Now would the potential ganker stick around and wait for their victim to login in again? would it be worth waiting? And if they other player is still there when logged back in, then what would prevent another disgraceful exit? and this time wait the full amount of time? etc, etc...



Add to this that one of the ongoing motives in this game is that we all can blaze our own path in this game, and to allow us to do that, FDev have given us several tools to accomplish this. Game modes, blocking players, exit to menu are 3 such options we have. And you cannot force me todo any of these choices. If I decide to block you, there is nothing you can really do about that. it is MY decision, not yours. So with how the netcode currently works, it is possible for the instance holder to kick other player out of their instance... so does not take much imagination what could happen if we start to lock game mode, or force a specific game mode (like solo) if the game thinks you did an disgraceful exit... and if another player can trigger this, then they can now force choices on you... that would be bad...