Could Frontier please demonstrate how to use the FSS enjoyably?

[ChipStar65]

Tell me again how we can instantaneously determine the composition of, calculate the distribution of elements in rocks on the surface of, and detect the presence of geological and biological activity on the far side of a planet 500,000 Ls away without 'breaking physics to pieces'?

By analyzing the data available from passive scans. You are assuming that no strides have been made in scan sensitivity and spectral ranges over a thousand years or so, which is ludicrous. The data, in the form of signals from various types of materials and biological processes, is always present in the system, just waiting to be detected, just as are starlight and radio and x-rays here on Earth. Nothing instantaneous about it. The farside issue is a stretch, but I never assume that the FSS examines the entire planet, it just reports what it can detect. Perhaps there is some extrapolation based on statistical analysis. In any case, I assume a full-globe DSS mapping session is necessary to pin it down to specifics, including locations.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

It is the optimal way to tag stuff & earn cash though. Since 3.3 I have more money than I know what to do with for the first time since I bought the game in January 2015 because pretty well every system I enter I scan everything to get a completed map, but map no more than I scanned pre-3.3.

The net effect for me is that completion scanning the system has become the new honk scoop & jump (ie added delay before I get to see whether the system contains anything interesting to me), then because mapping has become the new scanning I 'have' to fly much closer to the body, come to almost a complete stop & fire the probes, compared to the straightforward fly-by I would do before which would allow me to get a feeling of the scale of the system.

I like the benefits of being able to optionally scan at a distance, and mapping is almost entirely optional so I don't have a problem with that at all, but all it's done for me is slow me down & provide a compensating benefit I I don't consider important.

Exploration by using the FSS and DSS the way they were designed to be used destroys the flow of exploration. It's all stop-start (literally) and bouncing between multiple different screens.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

You are assuming that no strides have been made in scan sensitivity and spectral ranges over a thousand years or so, which is ludicrous.

You just blew your whole argument out of the water here.

If it's okay for the FSS to be based off thousands of years of technological advancement, it was okay for the ADS to do it too.

It's fine that you prefer the FSS, just don't try to pretend it's more sciencey than the ADS.

 

[ChipStar65]

You just blew your whole argument out of the water here.

If it's okay for the FSS to be based off thousands of years of technological advancement, it was okay for the ADS to do it too.

It's fine that you prefer the FSS, just don't try to pretend it's more sciencey than the ADS.

Except that the ADS did not require focusing a scan on a particular signal, and was intimately tied to "honking," which is an active scan, else why the honk? Using your example, the object 500,000 Ls out would require 1 million seconds for the "honk" to reach the object and return, and some time for the ADS to do its thing on the resultant data. ADS was not a passive scan of existing data, but a way to generate data by sending out an apparently FTL signal, the "honk." And there was no mechanism for discriminating any signals it may acquire, it's just a mass of unfocused and unattributable data from the entire system, like listening to 5000 radios stations at once. Without the focus of the FSS, how did it parse the data into the kind of specifics it provided? That's a major technological hurdle as well a scientific faux pas. Even the FSD isn't a true trans-light drive, but rather a space-folding technique that allows for short-cuts through spacetime, so a trans-light sensor pulse is out of the question.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

All the people panning the FSS as "pretend science" have no idea what passive data collection is all about. It's 100% how we have learned about the Universe outside of a few local planets -- point an instrument at a target object and record or read its available spectral outputs, analyze them, get an idea of what the object is composed of. You think FSS is humdrum, try acquiring and analysing actual stellar (or planetary, which are much more limited as they are rarely emissive) spectra. Think about how long it took Penzias and Wilson to isolate and analyze the CBR -- microwaves, for gosh sakes, barely a step up from radio. That much better tools are available a thousand years later isn't stretching anything scientifically, but it won't change the basic procedures. By comparison, "honking" is apparently an active scan that breaks physics to pieces by being instantaneous over huge distances -- no light-bound delay in signal return. That is pretend science.

And yet nowadays it's quite common to make extensive surveys in an automated way, so much so for the realism.

 

[[VR] Merkir]

Except that the ADS did not require focusing a scan on a particular signal, and was intimately tied to "honking," which is an active scan, else why the honk? Using your example, the object 500,000 Ls out would require 1 million seconds for the "honk" to reach the object and return, and some time for the ADS to do its thing on the resultant data. ADS was not a passive scan of existing data, but a way to generate data by sending out an apparently FTL signal, the "honk." And there was no mechanism for discriminating any signals it may acquire, it's just a mass of unfocused and unattributable data from the entire system, like listening to 5000 radios stations at once. Without the focus of the FSS, how did it parse the data into the kind of specifics it provided? That's a major technological hurdle as well a scientific faux pas. Even the FSD isn't a true trans-light drive, but rather a space-folding technique that allows for short-cuts through spacetime, so a trans-light sensor pulse is out of the question.

If you want to talk about realism, the ADS is much more realistic than the FSS.

It's easy to prove. Just take the output of the FSS after the initial honk, add very basic 20th century signal processing, and it does what the ADS does, only with added benefits (discovery tags, etc.). The fact that the FSS has been given to us as half a tool, in the form of a child's learning toy, makes it far less realistic.

The first thing I'd being doing if I were transported to the year 3305 is convert the child's "telescope" into a science instrument.

 

[HairballHacker]

The fss is horrible
Everyone knows it
But FD spent a lot of time and money on it
so they want to pretend to believe it’s great

Why is it bad? I just got back from a longish exploration jaunt and I rather liked it. Very quick. Easy to find planet types that I care about. Don't have to move from the main star (unless I want to map something). Controls are easy to use (although I suppose you could map them in a way that makes them a pain to use).

Of course, I am basing my comparison on what we had before which was just lame.

And as a card-carrying member of the group "everyone", my liking the FSS disproves your argument.

 

[HairballHacker]

I hate how the FSS backgorund sometimes drifts when scanning, it induces vertigo.

Set the dead zone bigger silly person.

 

[HairballHacker]

Simple: It’s not the 1 click gods-eye-view as you race through system after system, like you’re about to lose the race, that the old ADS was, and kids can’t stand having to put forth any kind of effort whatsoever. After all, no one even asked them if they wanted to be born, so they’re entitled to everything being handed to them because they exist, with an apology for them having to be here at all.

LOL. BINGO!!! You win the internet.

 

[Riverside]

Finally a refreshing spot of realism! This isn't the first anti FSS thread (even if it came somewhat shady in the suggestion sub forum: it never really was meant as a "suggestion" in the first place). I didn't count how many of these threads were already started, all I know is none of them had a dev post in it. Doesn't that alone ring a huge bell to all you desperate ADS lovers?
Hope that helps to ground your expectations...

It certainly would be nice to get a dev response on this situation, it has put a significant dent in my enthusiasm for the game for no good reason. Mostly I'd just like to know when it will be put back in, what twisted logic caused it to be removed in the first place is of less interest to me.

 

[Riverside]

Not sure what you are hoping for.

I literally just stated what I am looking for, you quoted it. Maybe you should instead accept that this is not a problem that is going to go away until the old modules are reinstated, and that suggesting I give up is not a productive line of reasoning.

I'm looking for a response from FDev. The response I'm looking for is a sincere apology for the trouble this change has caused and an ETA for when those modules will be put back into the game. And a 'lessons learned, we aren't going to remove stuff without good reason in future, we realise this is an existing game we are building on & not a new game people haven't already bought' would go down pretty well too.

 

[Faded Glory]

Not sure what you are hoping for. Common sense and the constant silence of the devs about it can only mean one thing: Not disputable. Get over it (probably better for your mental health on the long run).

The silence (or otherwise) of the devs means nothing.

They never commented when players said that SC was long and boring - but they did away with the need to SC in exploration and still get tags and credits unless you want to fly to the body to map it. They never commented when players asked for auto-pilot, yet we have SC assist.

And they mentioned out loud that PP might be good in open only, yet it's still available in all modes.

They make changes when they decide they want to make changes, based upon metrics that they have and we don't, often long after the fact that something is discussed by the community.

No reason on the other hand that people shouldn't make their feelings known.

 

[space voyager]

I wouldn't mind having the FSS somehow be able to scan faster with the use of skill - other than faster use of FSS controls. By being more accurate perhaps, kinda like interdiction minigame.

But I would sure be glad if we all searched for further improvement of the FSS instead of demanding removal.

Investing a minute of my time - I suggest the ability of the FSS to scan GGs (all planets, but GGs are most cumbersome) with all their moons in one go via skill. Perhaps an accurate positioning of the FSS or by the correct adjustment of the band three times in a row or whatever.

 

[Riverside]

I wouldn't mind having the FSS somehow be able to scan faster with the use of skill - other than faster use of FSS controls. By being more accurate perhaps, kinda like interdiction minigame.

But I would sure be glad if we all searched for further improvement of the FSS instead of demanding removal.

Investing a minute of my time - I suggest the ability of the FSS to scan GGs (all planets, but GGs are most cumbersome) with all their moons in one go via skill. Perhaps an accurate positioning of the FSS or by the correct adjustment of the band three times in a row or whatever.

I like the interdiction mechanism because it requires the same basic technique as using fixed weapons, or to a lesser extent flying FA-off - fine control. My gaming background outside of Elite is racing sims which similarly reward fine control.

Currently the FSS is a hunt the blob game, disconnected from any other useful skill in the game. If there were an aspect to either multi-jump travel or system discovery that encouraged the exploration player to improve skills that would be useful for survival in other, more time-critical gameplay mechanisms (PvP is a good example) I think it would help a lot of players to enjoy the whole game rather than just having exploring the wider galaxy be off to one side & unrelated to the rest of the game.

While out on extended trips around the galaxy I have used the time to practice both using fixed weapons and flying FA-off, but to no benefit to my actual exploration of the galaxy, it was just something to do during otherwise quiet periods because when you are a long way out there isn't much else to do but explore.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

The silence (or otherwise) of the devs means nothing.

They never commented when players said that SC was long and boring - but they did away with the need to SC in exploration and still get tags and credits unless you want to fly to the body to map it. They never commented when players asked for auto-pilot, yet we have SC assist.

And they mentioned out loud that PP might be good in open only, yet it's still available in all modes.

They make changes when they decide they want to make changes, based upon metrics that they have and we don't, often long after the fact that something is discussed by the community.

No reason on the other hand that people shouldn't make their feelings known.

You still need to SC to explore. Saying you don't is just a lie.

 

[Tarman]

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee carousel topic!


weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

You still need to SC to explore. Saying you don't is just a lie.

You need SC to map, but mapping non-landable bodies provides nothing except credits. It's essentially a KWS for planets.

Therefore, you don't NEED to SC to explore.

 

[lenna]

I literally just stated what I am looking for, you quoted it. Maybe you should instead accept that this is not a problem that is going to go away until the old modules are reinstated, and that suggesting I give up is not a productive line of reasoning.

The old modules don't necessarily need to be re-instated as was, the end-effect is the important factor - viable alternatives to the pointless Blob-hunt/Space-golf mini-games that replicate on the most part the exploration experience that was available pre-3.3 is the key point.

I can not get behind the "more interaction is inherently better" (arguably fallacious) logic that some are touting as fact.

 

[Maro-Val]

We got the crappy fss that pretty much is a lousy mini-game for kids, but at least the galaxy was indeed seeded with countless exciting features for us to discover, and every single one feels unique and are so many that cmdrs still keep finding new stuff even today, and on top of that we can interact with them in a meaningfull way and we even are able to find and collect amazing stuff that only exist outside the bubble, and lets not forget that we had to learn how to properly outfit our ships in order to go out there unlike the old days and, and... oh wait..

 

[Shinji Ikari]

If the FSS is "pretty much a lousy mini-game for kids", how do you think the ADS could possibly be attributed? Because words fail me here. Exploration for monads perhaps?

I'm no Nostradamus but my predicting was right...