Detailed Surface Scanner - change from internal slot to utility slot

[Marcusstratus]

I know every exploration ship should NOT have it all. Because there would be no reason for anyone to upgrade to a better ship.

This is a good point. There's not much reason for me to upgrade from the DBX to the AspX, if it does just as well for exploration. I use the Asp now because it has more internals/externals and is great in the Human bubble. If the DSS was changed or the DBX changed to accomodate the Vehicle hangar (with everything else) I would just Explore in the DBX and leave my chunky heavy Asp at the bubble.

Several good points have been made for the DSS change, I initially liked the idea of having it on a Utility point, but that would require dropping from SC to use (as you have to do with the other Utility points, remember, Wake scanner has ~4km range max)

What about a new apparatus, such as a... Global Mapping Scanner (or whatever) that takes up a Utility point and you have to drop from SC to use. But instead of only taking surface information for your System Map, it also gets imagery for the planets surface for Planetary Map. You could stick with the DSS if you just want the same info we have now and don't want to take the time to drop from SC. Or you could use the Mapping Scanner to get that System Map info as well as the Planetary Map info, but you would have to be in Real space to get it... OR ORBIAL CRUSE, fly around the planet once and you're done.

This is providing they want to do something other than that simple grid for Planetary Map

 

[mossfoot]

Several good points have been made for the DSS change, I initially liked the idea of having it on a Utility point, but that would require dropping from SC to use (as you have to do with the other Utility points, remember, Wake scanner has ~4km range max)

Actually, the wake scanner can be used in SC to track high wakes, so there's no in-game reason the DSS couldn't work in SC.

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The problem you have Mengy is you don't understand the game. I am not the one asking to making all small ship into exploration ships with SRV hangar. I also not trying to change utility mounts to Suite small ship and explorers at the expense of Multi Role players. Who like to do a little exploration with a little combat and who use utility mount. Stuff like Chaff Launcher or Point Defense or Shield boast.

You still haven't made your case about HOW that would hurt multi role players, nor any of the points made earlier pointing out your apparent double standards.

If you move the DSS to utility, then you free up an internal for a Shield Cell Bank or Hull reinforcement to protect in combat (which, in a Cobra, is actually more useful than a A0 shield booster). Balance maintained. Multi role maintained.

 

[Marcusstratus]

Actually, the wake scanner can be used in SC to track high wakes, so there's no in-game reason the DSS couldn't work in SC.

Ah! Then indeed there isn't

... (I haven't actually used the wake scanner in SC, I'm just familiar with it's real space km limitations

 

[Lestat]

See there you go again mossfoot forcing people to change the way they play because you don't like how it is now. Let me point it out.

Let say I am a Cobra MKIII Explorer/Combat/Smuggler/Miner.

Internal
16 Cargo Rack
Refinery
Shields
Advanced Discovery Scanner
Detail Scanner.
Fuel Scoop

As Utility mounts.
Chaff Launcher
Shield boast.

Hard Point
Mining Laser
3 Beam Laser.

Note they don't have Collectors, They also don't have Field Repair Kit. It was their choice and it also forces players to choice what they need and what they don't need. Which is the heart of this game.

Thing is You are going to have to learn that smaller ships can't do everything you want them to. You are going to have to pick and choice what really important for you.

Ok you want SRV in a Diamond Back Explorer then you have to pick 5 from your list. Shield, SRV hanger, Fuel scoop, Field Repair Kit, Discovery scanner
Detailed scanner.

My suggestion Field Repair kid would be good choice to take out.

Hum let buy a smart car then let us try load it with a full cord of wood in it. It not going to happen.

 

[mossfoot]

See there you go again mossfoot forcing people to change the way they play because you don't like how it is now. Let me point it out.

Let say I am a Cobra MKIII Explorer/Combat/Smuggler/Miner.

Internal
16 Cargo Rack
Refinery
Shields
Advanced Discovery Scanner
Detail Scanner.
Fuel Scoop

As Utility mounts.
Chaff Launcher
Shield boast.

Hard Point
Mining Laser
3 Beam Laser.

Note they don't have Collectors, They also don't have Field Repair Kit. It was their choice and it also forces players to choice what they need and what they don't need. Which is the heart of this game.

You left out the fact it doesn't have an SRV either. Just how much hamstringing is enough for you?

Now, explain to me just how swapping out your Shield Boost with a Shield Cell Bank in ANY way hurts your multi-role desires. It doesn't. Not one little bit. In fact, a Sheild Cell Bank is far more useful and effective than a shield booster. So your argument just doesn't hold up. At all.

 

[Lestat]

Well if you keep up on the Video Frontier release talking about Horizon. The Shield Cell Bank is not going to be I Win button like it use to be. Could cause ship damage if use wrong and such. Maybe you should Read up on it. So I stick with Shield Boost

 

[mossfoot]

Well if you keep up on the Video Frontier release talking about Horizon. The Shield Cell Bank is not going to be I Win button like it use to be. Could cause ship damage if use wrong and such. Maybe you should Read up on it. So I stick with Shield Boost

Actually Shield Cells are providing more protection than before, especially at higher tiers. There is more heat, yes, but the heat damage only occurs at the higher levels (like class 5/6/7) and is meant to prevent SCB spamming (like an Anaconda filling up and using 2 or 3 SCBs at once).

On a 4A shield an A rated Shield Booster will give you 24MJ more protection, taking you from 124MJ to 148MJ. Plus your shields recharge will be 20% slower as a result.

A single 2A Shield Cell Bank, however, provides 4 boosts of 105MJ each for a total of 420MJ of extra protection.

So I'm pretty sure you haven't read up on it, otherwise you'd know all this.

 

[Lestat]

And it still Beta so that might change. But let get back on topic.

Let say they had the same setup with a few thing change. Note different players means different setup.

Let say I am a Cobra MKIII Explorer/Combat/Smuggler/Miner.

Internal
16 Cargo Rack
Refinery
Shields
Advanced Discovery Scanner
Detail Scanner.
Fuel Scoop

As Utility mounts.
Chaff Launcher
Kill Warrant Scanner

Now let say user had the same With different Utility mount setup. Are you going to fault them? Are you seriously going to force them to Change their game play. Because your unwilling deal with Smaller ship can't do it all?

When I help on the DDF (Design Decision Forum) We talk about not all ship having everything. The talk went so far to limiting the small and medium ship to only a few Modules. So players can't have it all. They had choice what important to them.

 

[mossfoot]

I'm sorry. I'm just about done with this. I made my points clearly, and you've failed to make your case. You talk about my proposal being based on a desire to "have everything" (which I pointed out multiple times simply isn't true, even if the idea was implemented many ships including but not limited to the DBX would not be able to "have everything" but you always ignore that point).

So you counter trying to show that the idea would then make a specific type of multi-role ship be unable to have what you consider an ideal multi-role setup.

I bounty hunt without a kill warrant scanner all the time. Most of the time, in fact. The extra credits gained through it usually aren't worth it to me. It would be an acceptable trade off to me if I was flying that multi-role rig.

You keep talking trade offs and limitations, but they always seem to be under very limited vision and conditions.

Let's keep your build here for a moment - What would be the harm in, say, making a Combo Scanner that took up a Class 3 slot? Your Cobra pilot then has an interesting choice. Since it has 3 C2 and 3 C4 slots, it couldn't use the Combo Scanner in the C2 slot, it would have to use the C4 slot instead. So by gaining an extra slot, it could, say, add a collector lipmet, but at the expense of dropping from a C4 Refinery to a C2 Refinery. Or, it could keep the two scanners separate the way you currently have it.

I see choice, not limitation. And, I repeat, in this scenario nobody, not the Cobra, not the DBX, nobody gets to "have it all" so stop pretending it does.

 

[clinton]

TBH, a good solution my be to allow all explorer scanners to be fitted to either internal or utility slots.

I don't think that would upset balance too much, but would allow for a little more flexibility.

 

[Lestat]

TBH, a good solution my be to allow all explorer scanners to be fitted to either internal or utility slots.

I don't think that would upset balance too much, but would allow for a little more flexibility.

So you want offset the balance for players who like Multipurpose ships and players that play them. Someone in a cobra Could do 100 ly exploration near the stations so they get best of both worlds. Combat and exploration. But moving the Internal slot to a utility slot. Affect that users combat/exploration role. They lose a utility mount. Which could help defend them.

It also affect Apple users who will not be able to play Horizon and players who can't afford Horizon.

My question will be this. What happens when they release Ship hanger? Will this topic come up again. Try to shove more internal into small ships so they could have it all?

 

[NeilF]

So you want offset the balance for players who like Multipurpose ships and players that play them. Someone in a cobra Could do 100 ly exploration near the stations so they get best of both worlds. Combat and exploration. But moving the Internal slot to a utility slot. Affect that users combat/exploration role. They lose a utility mount. Which could help defend them.

It also affect Apple users who will not be able to play Horizon and players who can't afford Horizon.

My question will be this. What happens when they release Ship hanger? Will this topic come up again. Try to shove more internal into small ships so they could have it all?

I'm confused?

If you look at the more dedicated scanners (eg: kws) they are utility mounts. So the suggestion is to allow the detailed surface scanner to also come in a utility mount, primarily so it doesn't break the existing parts of the game (eg: people with as a module already)? This all seems very logical and straight forward to me?

And as for non-horizons players, they are still going to get additions (eg: crafting), so this could easily include the proposed external DSS being discussed.

 

[Lestat]

I'm confused?

If you look at the more dedicated scanners (eg: kws) they are utility mounts. So the suggestion is to allow the detailed surface scanner to also come in a utility mount, primarily so it doesn't break the existing parts of the game (eg: people with as a module already)? This all seems very logical and straight forward to me?

And as for non-horizons players, they are still going to get additions (eg: crafting), so this could easily include the proposed external DSS being discussed.

Let look at Range. and what it scanning.

KW Scanning ship to see if they have a warrant. Kinda like What cops do on license plate scanners. Check country and local authority.

Detail Surface scanner scan Planets is Like New Horizon satellite. That scans something Much larger then a a small License plate reader and might have to store more info.

 

[NeilF]

Let look at Range. and what it scanning.

KW Scanning ship to see if they have a warrant. Kinda like What cops do on license plate scanners. Check country and local authority.

Detail Surface scanner scan Planets is Like New Horizon satellite. That scans something Much larger then a a small License plate reader and might have to store more info.

*confused*

Are we seriously playing the "what's realistic with 31st century electronics," instead of, "what's best for 21st gameplay?"

If so, I've remembered that the detailed surface scanner needs direct line of sight with the target as its electronics are made less sensitive by going through the ship's bulkhead. Hence a cargo bay isn't idea for it, and a utility mount is. There you go

But , "realism" aside, it should be 100% a gameplay balance IMHO. If FD have maybe got the internal (cargo) slots and external (utility) slots wrong, the proposal (also offer a utility slot DSS) is a very nice way to soften it. So worth a consideration at least.

 

[Lestat]

Let take Google Earth. 20+ petabytes while we still dealing with terabyte on our computers.. That might not be much in the 31 century. Depending what the Detail scanners do 31 century. My guess. Take pictures, Scan for minerals, Scan for life forms Weather conditions, Locate tectonic plates. The list could go on.

Ya I see Kill Warrant Scanners. Something that sent to the nearest Station they check on there servers and send you the info clean or wanted, or Lawless.

While Detail Surface scanner. You can't send it to the locale servers because your in a Dead zone. So it has to be stored on your ship.

 

[Bazil]

On balance, there are lots of people in favour of this change and one against.

 

[Vasious]

Let take Google Earth. 20+ petabytes while we still dealing with terabyte on our computers.. That might not be much in the 31 century. Depending what the Detail scanners do 31 century. My guess. Take pictures, Scan for minerals, Scan for life forms Weather conditions, Locate tectonic plates. The list could go on.

Ya I see Kill Warrant Scanners. Something that sent to the nearest Station they check on there servers and send you the info clean or wanted, or Lawless.

While Detail Surface scanner. You can't send it to the locale servers because your in a Dead zone. So it has to be stored on your ship.

You arguments seem to be change is bad because it is change from what you have set up.
For the same reason they shouldn't have changed any ship ever as it might mess with current build.
All that SCB changes, HSL changes, FDL PP changes



The detailed surface scanner is an additional suite to the discovery scanner which would stay internal and be that data storage.
The Detailed surface scanner on its own does nothing.
If one can travel to 20,000 systems and level 2 scan everything and be fine then the 2 ton discovery scanner suit seems fine for storage space

The detailed surface scanner is the same mass as the Cargo, wake, and Kill Warrant scanners.
And the Wake scanner can scan a smaller entity from 1000 light seconds out

 

[Limoncello Lizard]

The Detailed surface scanner on its own does nothing.

This, on its own is reason enough. The DSS is, at best, an afterthought. I think they made it an internal module more by oversight than proper design and consideration of game balance.

 

[Ziljan]

The problem with moving DSS/ADS to a utility slot is that it means your shields are weaker. In Horizons, shields are big deal for exploration, especially on high G planets. I use as many shield boosters as I can fit. So this solution, would be "OK" but it would definitely open up the ship to more damage. I guess I could slot princess shields, but that would be a different kind of problem. Extra weight... Also bad on high G worlds.

 

[NeilF]

The problem with moving DSS/ADS to a utility slot is that it means your shields are weaker. In Horizons, shields are big deal for exploration, especially on high G planets. I use as many shield boosters as I can fit. So this solution, would be "OK" but it would definitely open up the ship to more damage. I guess I could slot princess shields, but that would be a different kind of problem. Extra weight... Also bad on high G worlds.

But if you have the choice between the fitting of the DSS being in an internal cargo slot, or an external utility slot? What's the problem? Simply giving more outfitting options...