"Development Level >>"? Figuring out what all these numbers do.

[Tyrrel]

Friend's Coriolis (starting station) built 10 minutes ago started without a shipyard, but gained it after the station was renamed.

With that I think we can confirm that the shipyard, at least, comes default with Coriolis; but needs an update of some kind in order for it to come online. Updates include Thursday tick, and renaming

 

[Alec Turner]

https://cmdr-nowski.github.io/syscol_helper/

Anyone used this tool yet to help analyze building effects?

GitHub - cmdr-nowski/syscol_helper: System Colonisation Overview and Prototyping for Elite

System Colonisation Overview and Prototyping for Elite - cmdr-nowski/syscol_helper

github.com

It's brilliant isn’t it, gonna shout it out on Lave Radio tonight.
@Nowski - a feature request if I may. Would it be possible to indicate in the list of things you plan to build on the left the one's you’ve actually completed so it can reduce the total mat's for the rest of the build accordingly (I appreciate it’s not accurate for partial builds but would still be kinda neat to distinguish what’s done in your system vs. what’s on the todo list). Anyway, thanks for developing that tool, I’m finding it incredibly helpful!

 

[Greasetrap42]

There are two High Tech Hubs available:

• Surface Hub Scientific - System influence High Tech
• Surface Hub High Tech - System influence High Tech

Research Bio Settlement - System influence High Tech (S/M/L) - is the only seemingly related surface facility. And I got a bunch of them. And I have the Planetary Science Port.

I see suggestions that hubs might increase the flow of commodities.
Anybody have a good guess which hub to chose and/or why? I am open to any crazy theories.

 

[Tyrrel]

There are two High Tech Hubs available:

• Surface Hub Scientific - System influence High Tech
• Surface Hub High Tech - System influence High Tech

Research Bio Settlement - System influence High Tech (S/M/L) - is the only seemingly related surface facility. And I got a bunch of them. And I have the Planetary Science Port.

I see suggestions that hubs might increase the flow of commodities.
Anybody have a good guess which hub to chose and/or why? I am open to any crazy theories.

If you're looking to impact the market strength of your system focusing on Development Level is a good choice according to what we've been finding this week. Tech level may likely have an impact on increasing the market's options. Keep in mind that hubs may not come with their own population workforces, you might need to back them up with extra pops from an orbiting/surface port.

 

[Greasetrap42]

If you're looking to impact the market strength of your system focusing on Development Level is a good choice according to what we've been finding this week.

Hmmm. So the thought is that the hubs aren't for improving the specific economic item it describes (military, high tech, tourism, etc) but rather economic or market variables.

Example:
Refinery hub = development level -> market strength
High Tech Hub = tech level -> market options
Exploration Hub = tech level -> market options
Military Hub = security level -> some other market variable

Wow, that is not intuitive at all. Building a refinery hub on a high tech planet to improve the overall markets. sheesh!

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Well, most of them have both a local economic influence and some fairly strong global property boosts.

So you'd put the refinery hub not on the high-tech planet, but somewhere else in the system.
- then the local economy effect is safely away from your HT markets, so you don't get a HT/Refinery hybrid eating most of its own production
- but the global property effects still work

 

[Greasetrap42]

Well, most of them have both a local economic influence and some fairly strong global property boosts.

So you'd put the refinery hub not on the high-tech planet, but somewhere else in the system.

• then the local economy effect is safely away from your HT markets, so you don't get a HT/Refinery hybrid eating most of its own production
• but the global property effects still work

Aha!. So I would place a tech hub on my tech planet and the refinery hub on my mining/refining planet and in theory it might be good! Cool.

 

[Greasetrap42]

• Last night I finished my Coriolis that orbits the sun. Its got shipyard and outfitting, but market sucks. And system population hasn't gone up yet.
• I have a system with a good baseline of all the indexes (10), but super strong in high tech (30) and industrial (20).
• I currently have no hubs. I am waiting for Thursday tick to see how my Coriolis is.
• Then I will add hubs to see if Coriolis gets better.

 

[Tyrrel]

Hmmm. So the thought is that the hubs aren't for improving the specific economic item it describes (military, high tech, tourism, etc) but rather economic or market variables.

Example:
Refinery hub = development level -> market strength
High Tech Hub = tech level -> market options
Exploration Hub = tech level -> market options
Military Hub = security level -> some other market variable

Wow, that is not intuitive at all. Building a refinery hub on a high tech planet to improve the overall markets. sheesh!

No, hubs do not affect only the local economy, but the system economy as a whole. The idea is to build hubs in order to do two things:
Influence local economy towards a specific economy (refinery),
Influence system status to increase the overall market strength and options of the system.

The purpose of hubs is to give a larger system bonus over the local planetary bonus than settlements. Build hubs to influence system stats where settlements aren't enough.

 

[_Flin_]

No, hubs do not affect only the local economy, but the system economy as a whole. The idea is to build hubs in order to do two things:
Influence local economy towards a specific economy (refinery),
Influence system status to increase the overall market strength and options of the system.

The purpose of hubs is to give a larger system bonus over the local planetary bonus than settlements. Build hubs to influence system stats where settlements aren't enough.

Source for this information?

 

[Tyrrel]

Source for this information?

Personal experimentation and what others have been saying over the past few weeks. You can see the system stat impact from the architect view pretty easily, the hubs give different and often stronger stat influences than settlements.

 

[Jmanis]

Well, most of them have both a local economic influence and some fairly strong global property boosts.

So you'd put the refinery hub not on the high-tech planet, but somewhere else in the system.
- then the local economy effect is safely away from your HT markets, so you don't get a HT/Refinery hybrid eating most of its own production
- but the global property effects still work

So I'm wondering if there's a range to the global effect, or at least range based dissipation.

 

[Tyrrel]

So I'm wondering if there's a range to the global effect, or at least range based dissipation.

That'd be a good thing to know, but without a visible representation of the system status there's no way that we can properly experiment around that; I don't think. Maybe if FDev adds those stats to the journal, but otherwise it's taking a shot in the dark within systems that have multiple economies across large distances; which take more work to build in the first place.

 

[Jmanis]

That'd be a good thing to know, but without a visible representation of the system status there's no way that we can properly experiment around that; I don't think. Maybe if FDev adds those stats to the journal, but otherwise it's taking a shot in the dark within systems that have multiple economies across large distances; which take more work to build in the first place.

My main thought is that if the current mechanics are loosely[1] based on the procedural generation for the rest of the bubble... i often find that distant binary systems (100kls+) will have one economy type centred at one star, and a different economy type centred around another. This is noting the galaxy populated in reverse... the galaxy started with stations and outposts, then got horizons hubs and ports, and most recently got Odyssey settlements, so they would have been placed with reverse logic.

[1] between the reverse logic and the construction points, it's why you can't make systems identical to some which exist

 

[Tyrrel]

My main thought is that if the current mechanics are loosely[1] based on the procedural generation for the rest of the bubble... i often find that distant binary systems (100kls+) will have one economy type centred at one star, and a different economy type centred around another. This is noting the galaxy populated in reverse... the galaxy started with stations and outposts, then got horizons hubs and ports, and most recently got Odyssey settlements, so they would have been placed with reverse logic.

[1] between the reverse logic and the construction points, it's why you can't make systems identical to some which exist

My line of thinking is that the current system for colonization has little to do with how legacy systems operate, at least in terms of purely how we generate economies. For the most part there's no need to build out entirely new systems, so things like NPC trade route generation and resources generated from economies will be the same as everywhere else in the galaxy, so long as the economy is correct.

The major difference between Colony era systems and Legacy systems is that FDev didn't "need" a system to generate economies before, they just put them where they would seem best. The simplest two questions we have to answer to understand the new system is what the system stats mean at scale, and how to best balance a system economy in a way that makes sense without too much complexity. Occam's Razor posits that when presented with competing hypotheses about the same prediction and both hypotheses have equal explanatory power, one should prefer the hypothesis that requires the fewest assumptions.

 

[Jmanis]

Another one for the "TODO" list; what determines the threat level for a facility (and therefore, the difficulty of NPCs)... from a non-colonisation system:

Spoiler: Detail

My Large Military Settlement was Threat 1 when I first built it at Medium Security... now I'm at High Security it appears to be Threat 2

This controls the rank/difficulty of NPCs at a facility (and to a degree determines whether there's Goliaths or just regular skimmers)

 

[Jmanis]

My line of thinking is that the current system for colonization has little to do with how legacy systems operate, at least in terms of purely how we generate economies.

Yeah I agree. The only thing I'd suggest is that while I think the generation rules of these were very different, I suspect Colonisation rules are such that they'd want to create something "close enough" to what currently exists.

 

[Xenia_K]

Yeah I agree. The only thing I'd suggest is that while I think the generation rules of these were very different, I suspect Colonisation rules are such that they'd want to create something "close enough" to what currently exists.

guess so, otherwise their BGS/Eco system would crash?

 

[Tyrrel]

Yeah I agree. The only thing I'd suggest is that while I think the generation rules of these were very different, I suspect Colonisation rules are such that they'd want to create something "close enough" to what currently exists.

Yup. Minimal changes to existing systems means less work for them.

 

[Xenia_K]

Yup. Minimal changes to existing systems means less work for them.

much more important - less chance of creating nasty bugs....