Discuss AI here (After Engineer mods removal)

How do you find NPC *combat* AI (after Engineers mods removal)?

  • Too hard

    Votes: 119 27.8%

  • Just right

    Votes: 222 51.9%

  • Too easy

    Votes: 70 16.4%

  • Other (specify)

    Votes: 17 4.0%
  • Total voters
    428
  • Poll closed .
Status
Thread Closed: Not open for further replies.

Sunleader

Sunleader
matemaster said:
Maneuverability is the king now and NPC's are very good in that. Even when in more maneuverable ship like corvette vs conda I cant outurn NPC conda

How could one counter super maneuverability of NPC's ?

There are some theoretical ways. Lets take a look:

1. Head on attack if you think you have firepower and shield advantage over NPC (firepower is tricky now as mutated NPC weapons are still in game)
Head on attack is only applicable to NPC that will also try to go head on with you. from my observations fer de lances and gunships are allways trying to go head on and not stick to your ass

2. Turrets... but wait we dont have class 4 turrets, also NPC's are spamming chaff like no tomorrow

3. Speed... You disengage from combat gain some range from NPC turn around and head on pass, full unload from all weapons, rinse and repeat. But wait if you are in less maneveurable ship this means your ship is also slower than NPC - not applicable

Big slow ships dont have counter to more maneveurable ship that will stick at your 6 even if you have turrets NPC will just spam chaff

I can imagine some players that started playing recently and are flying ships like eagles, vipers, vultures, couriers saying that AI is fine. Yes it is if you fly the most maneveurable ships in game you can take down big NPC's like pythons, anacondas in those ships. But later if they save enough credits to buy python they will have their asses handed to them by eagles, ASP's, couriers, sidewinders, cobras...until broke and rage quit the game
Click to expand...



Currently the only Solution for NPC Super mobility is to Reverse Thrust so your Nose becomes your ass.

The guys talking about flight assist off are likely JS or Gamepad Players. As with Keyboerd and Mouse Flying without assist really puts a strain on your fingers which i wont bother with.
 

lysan

lysan
I rarely fight the interdiction, just submit and boost away, spamming mines. It works every single time.
 

Mohenjo

Mohenjo
Ok, now I've had a chance to see it in action.

Returning to Obsidian Orbital after exploring. Cargo Hold is empty. Fly a bit, interdicted by a ship I didn't recognize. Evaded it, interdicted by another ship I didn't recognize. Evaded that. Interdicted by a Sidewinder. Physically impossible to evade it. Even with my target in the center of the reticle, he was still boosting his interdiction. So, no choice but to submit.

So, I drop down, he immediately starts shooting me. Before he passes me a second one appears. Wasn't sure if it was an enemy or not, so I focused on evading the first one, since it was now virtually impossible to get him in front of my T6 to shoot at him. My FSD is still recharging when my shields are gone. These are 4A shields, so nothing to sneeze at. At this point the other one starts shooting me.

I manage to get a system targeted to high wake out to, because there is NO WAY I can take on even ONE of these ships, let alone two of them. My shields were gone in about 5 seconds, and that with only one shooting at me. With two?

It's become physically impossible for me to play in this state. A shame, I'd been rather enjoying the game up til now.

Voted EMPHATICALLY too hard.


What bothers me is that I'm actually a fairly decent pilot (though I'm not flying a combat ship). I don't consider myself among the best, but I'm decent. That these AI ships were so thoroughly dominant says that pilots less capable than I will be unable to do anything. I doubt they can even escape an interdiction. My shields were gone in a matter of seconds, and if I hadn't high waked out, my ship would have been gone in a few more seconds. I doubt the entire thing would have lasted even 30 seconds.

Granted, a transport should be at a disadvantage against a combat ship, but should still have a CHANCE. Here, there was NO chance at all. On top of that, a Sidewinder isn't a combat ship (specifically), it's a general purpose ship and a small one at that.
 
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Ziljan

Ziljan
Robert Maynard said:
I could barely get into a firing position. It was almost as if their translational inertia (Up/Down; Port/Starboard) was zero - while mine was as turgid as ever....
Click to expand...

Using FA off increases acceleration slightly, but significantly. This is because the Flight Assist thrusters add fake intertia to your ship. They also limit your speed in lateral and reverse directions. Removing flight assist removes the fake inertia, and part of the fake speed limits. Especially in reverse!
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Robert Maynard
Ziljan said:
Using FA off increases acceleration slightly, but significantly. This is because the Flight Assist thrusters add fake intertia to your ship. They also limit your speed in lateral and reverse directions. Removing flight assist removes the fake inertia, and part of the fake speed limits. Especially in reverse!
Click to expand...

Expecting all players to use FA-OFF in combat (as NPCs seem to use it now) is quite a change....
 

matemaster

matemaster
Sunleader said:
Currently the only Solution for NPC Super mobility is to Reverse Thrust so your Nose becomes your ass.
Click to expand...

Tried that. Against some NPC's it works against others no.
Me in corvette against imperial eagle. FA off, full reverse boost and eagle was still on my ass. I had to run away from that combat

Oh and I forgot I do mining in my corvette and FA off, full reverse boost in asteroid field... I really dont recommend doing that
 

Ghosty

G
If the Engineers upgrades are actualy removed right now (not sure): just right (which is what I voted). I like it the way it is.
2 things though: they still don't take heat damage or are affected by it in any way. Noticed the AI is still firing plasma projectiles and railguns like it's going out of style.
I'd also like to see them tank a bit more if they're in a larger ship. That, however, may be something they're already doing. There was a clipper on my nose yesterday and I couldn't get it off. Got me a bit nervous but I liked it.

It is still a problem for the new players though. The curve might be too steep.


The worst, though, are the interdictions. Ok, the AI suddenly found me when I jumped into a system with a load of cargo. But why does an Eagle ask for ALL of my cargo? I've got 792 tons in this Clipper, he's got maybe 8 tons of cargo capacity?

In a different situation I fought back, took a ship's shields down, but had to run away since I wouldn't last long. I jumped away (supercruise) and the AI jumped after me. Magicaly with full shields while mine were still charging. What the....!?

Ofcourse the AI interdicted me again, but that's just cheating because his shields should still be recharging aswell.
 

Pumabear8

Pumabear8
codenchips said:
I hadn't fired a shot for around 60 seconds before that and certainly didn't get time to react in any way. It seems my security pals had turned on me - but for what?!??!
Click to expand...

I only had this problem when I scraped the shields of a federal security ship, touchy bunch those guys, don't scratch their paint work!
 

Mohenjo

Mohenjo
Try this on for size.

Imagine if I told you you could play a game. Only thing is you're going to lose. EVERY time. You'll have no chance to win, no matter what you do.

Would you want to play that game?

This is the fundamental question that they need to be asking. They've made the game so difficult now that MANY players, myself included, as simply going to get killed EVERY SINGLE TIME they get attacked, no matter what they do. Those players aren't going to keep playing. What you'll have then is a game with a handful of hardcore players and precious little revenue. A game like that does not last long.


I don't want to shoot fish in a barrel, but I do want to be able to win, at least as often as I lose. Better if I win MORE often. Players SHOULD be more likely to win than NPCs. It's a game WE are meant to enjoy, NOT the NPCs. We get that enjoyment from success/victory. Take that away, and there's no enjoyment. And again, that's a recipe for a dead game.

The AI is not just killing players, it's killing the game itself.
 

verminstar

Banned
verminstar
So...another night. Playing in open now and have noticed one little strange thing, although it may just be me...you guys are the experts so I shall let you lot decide.

Every time I'm in supposedly safe space, I get ed within minutes, but when I fly in anarchy systems, I'm near nodding off before being ed after maybe half an hour. Now, I actually noticed it after the previous night, but put it down to me just not knowing the game very well, but after last night, I really am curious...is this intentional?

Anyway yeah, playing in open...some guy kept trying to ram me into the station wall. Not knowing all yer little nuances, I have to ask, what is the purpose behind this or what does it signify?

Got bored running away all the time and went for a dangerous who ed me...good solid ten minute fight...went through half my chaff and had about 50% hull left before the other ship, a viper, jumped out almost on the point of death. Self preservation being an unusual trait considering it's initial tactic of trying to play chicken like a crazy lemming.

One other thing...guys here keep talking bout FA off and on...I have a feeling mine is always off because I have no idea what FA is. I remapped it to something else after I kept hitting that instead of chaff which I set to the "C" key. Maybe I need to spend more than ten minutes remapping the keyboard but it would be nice to know what FA actually does...doesnt seem to make that much difference which is why I'm asking.

Game is certainly easier to manage although I'm a fairly poor judge considering my mk3 cobra and mediocre weapons and modules...sometimes its just a dangerous or a lower in anarchy systems and elites in safe space so I'm starting to move away from starter safe systems. No idea where I'm going, just picking a random direction cos I like the names. I'm happy nuff...died last night after being ed by an elite in one the starter systems just as I was about 30 seconds from dropping on the dock, so went to anarchy systems and made 5 times more money that what I would make in high sec? Not sure what ye wanna call it so I'll improvise.

Happier than I was...fights are hard though this should improve once I start getting more upgrades. I got a serious amount of work to do so...time to go to work ^^
 
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Pumabear8

Pumabear8
verminstar said:
One other thing...guys here keep talking bout FA off and on...I have a feeling mine is always off because I have no idea what FA is. I remapped it to something else after I kept hitting that instead of chaff which I set to the "C" key. Maybe I need to spend more than ten minutes remapping the keyboard but it would be nice to know what FA actually does...doesnt seem to make that much difference which is why I'm asking ^^
Click to expand...

Flight assist, your ships computer tries to maintain stability during flight, so when in combat, you're not only fighting the other ship, you're fighting your own flight assist, it reduces your maneuvering capability.
 

verminstar

Banned
verminstar
Pumabear8 said:
Flight assist, your ships computer tries to maintain stability during flight, so when in combat, you're not only fighting the other ship, you're fighting your own flight assist, it reduces your maneuvering capability.
Click to expand...

I noticed the ship felt like it was righting itself during a fight...didn't like it and turned it off. I much prefer the full freedom of movement and don't like the ship trying to fly itself. Maybe I'm just odd but so far, I'm doin a helluva lot better with keyboard and mouse than I thought I would...time will tell. What exactly is it useful for anyway?
 

Han Brannigan

Han Brannigan
verminstar said:
Anyway yeah, playing in open...some guy kept trying to ram me into the station wall. Not knowing all yer little nuances, I have to ask, what is the purpose behind this or what does it signify?
Click to expand...

He was trying to annoy you. if you fly faster then 100 and destroy a ship in a collision then the spaceport will start shooting at you.

One other thing...guys here keep talking bout FA off and on...I have a feeling mine is always off because I have no idea what FA is. I remapped it to something else after I kept hitting that instead of chaff which I set to the "C" key. Maybe I need to spend more than ten minutes remapping the keyboard but it would be nice to know what FA actually does...doesnt seem to make that much difference which is why I'm asking ^^
Click to expand...

You would definitely see a remarkable difference. For instance if you roll to the right you don't stop rolling until you counter roll to the left with the exact same speed and amplitude you rolled to the right (to much and you start rolling to the left not enough and you still roll to the right albeit slower ).

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDange...te_dangerous_guide_to_learning_flight_assist/

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Mohenjo said:
TMANY players, myself included, as simply going to get killed EVERY SINGLE TIME they get attacked, no matter what they do.
Click to expand...

Wrong.
 
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Bomba Luigi

Bomba Luigi
I don't see much change to be honest, the AI is still pretty good and lots of fun. Alltough I do hope the high ranked npcs will get mods back to make them more difficult, but for the lower ranks its best like it is now and then maybe in the mid-ranks some occasional mods here and there.
 

verminstar

Banned
verminstar
Han Brannigan said:
He was trying to annoy you. if you fly faster then 100 and destroy a ship in a collision then the spaceport will start shooting at you.



You would definitely see a remarkable difference. For instance if you roll to the right you don't stop rolling until you counter roll to the left with the exact same speed and amplitude you rolled to the right (to much and you start rolling to the left not enough and you still roll to the right albeit slower ).

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDange...te_dangerous_guide_to_learning_flight_assist/
Click to expand...

Ah haha...ok yeah will remember that one ^^

Honestly, I saw a difference but really didn't like it so turned it off which is why I ask what it's supposed to do. I find it easier to strafe while avoiding incoming fire without it but I may have to have another look if you guys all speak positive about using it.

On a lighter note, I may be surviving more because I'm running with a cobra 3 which I'm told is one the fastest ships in the game...and cheap...though you guys definition of cheap will be different than mine. Now got the bug so bad, I bought a paint...cyas in the black ^^
 
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