So why would Frontier (who have created a fantastic game so far) not of thought about this timeline, as it worked for RCT 3 - why would they not employ the same methodology here?
Display Sequencer tip! Make shows at ease!
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So why would Frontier (who have created a fantastic game so far) not of thought about this timeline, as it worked for RCT 3 - why would they not employ the same methodology here?
Because using the already existing trigger system was way easier than implementing a completely new interface for triggers. And this is just a free update (that came pretty soon after the previous one) which more or less put the foundation for shows in place. I am pretty sure when shows get expanded we will get a proper UI.
You bring up some valid points, which I think could use some elaboration.
There are essentially 2 types of fireworks (and related audio-visual displays).
1. Those intended to add luster to a functioning, profitable park.
2. Those intended solely for human consumption, totally divorced from all park-management gameplay concerns.
These categories are created mostly by gameplay constraints. Fireworks are very expensive to operate and generate zero direct income, plus darkness only lasts 6 real minutes, but that counts as 1/2 a game month. Thus, park-related shows must be short (1-2 minutes is about the practical limit) and relatively simple (so as not to blow the budget). For such things, I submit that the existing display sequencer interface is perfectly adequate.
It's only when you get into trying to make a "music video" for humans, with hundreds/thousands of effects choreographed to a musical score lasting 5 or more minutes (longer than night lasts in PC) that the display sequencer interface becomes problematic. Still, you can't deny it's a major improvement over using 1 or more track rides as timers
But here's the thing. PC is a game about building and managing amusement parks. It's not a music video creation suite. Therefore, it's not surprising that the sequencer interface works OK for park-centric displays but not so much for non-park displays. Really, the full-blown, highly choreographed, long-duration shows, while quite cool, are really taking everything in PC out of its native context.
I think it important to keep this in mind when considering how the devs would prioritize making the sequencer interface more user-friendly when it comes to making non-park shows. Sure, you can say that Frontier missed an opportunity at the get-go, but seriously, how many people would make any real use of such a feature anyway? Putting together a good non-park show is the domain of true artists and let's face it, most of us are not in that league. No matter what tools we're given, we simply lack the time, talent, and dedication needed to exploit their full potential.
I disagree with you here, Bullethead.
Planet Coaster is mainly a creative game, not management. Just looking at the management compared to the creative side of the game should prove that. It is clear people who want fireworks do so because they want to create awesome firework shows, not for management reasons.
The current editor is not more user friendly than something like the MixMaster from RCT3. I think its the opposite really. With the current editor it is more tedious, frustrating and difficult to make a good fireworks show because it lacks the tools to do so. I think you're really underestimating people here..
Planet Coaster is mainly a creative game, not management. Just looking at the management compared to the creative side of the game should prove that. It is clear people who want fireworks do so because they want to create awesome firework shows, not for management reasons.
The current editor is not more user friendly than something like the MixMaster from RCT3. I think its the opposite really. With the current editor it is more tedious, frustrating and difficult to make a good fireworks show because it lacks the tools to do so. I think you're really underestimating people here..
You miss the point.
There's no getting around the fact that the sort of long, complex shows that would benefit from a timeline-based interface like with a video editor are incompatible with normal park operation. You can't run the entire show in darkness without locking the ambient light to a specific time, and you can't afford to run such shows on a regular basis or you'll go broke quickly. And even in sandbox where money is no issue, most folks still set up their parks to make money, for a sense of realism.
Sure, PC is more about creativity than anything else, but it's not about creativity in general. It's about creativity in theme park construction within the constraints imposed by the game's mechanics. Its tools are therefore made with that in mind and any use they have outside that purpose is purely accidental. I'm not saying that PC's various park-related tools are perfect or a complete set, but I certainly am not going to complain if these tools don't do things outside of their intended environment.
Guess what? Regardless of the tools used, making any sort of long-duration, highly complex, fully choreographed show is ALWAYS going to be tedious and frustrating. And even if you can get through that, getting a quality product at the end of the process is ALWAYS going to require a higher level of artistic talent than is found in the general population. That's why not everybody in real life is an artist, and why only a select few artists are really any good.
I get the impression in this and similar threads that people were expecting the display sequencer to be some sort of "magic wand" that would allow anybody to spew out fantastic works of art effortlessly and in unlimited quantity. This was just a silly, totally unrealistic expectation. There is no "magic wand" that grants artistic talent.
Seriously, no matter what the sequencer interface looks like, the user still has to conceive of the show to begin with, figure out which of the provided effects will do what he wants, place them all in the game world, change all their colors, and choreograph the lot by setting all the durations and delays. Not to mention building whatever structures, coasters, and terrain/vegetation he needs to provide the backdrop. Getting a quality product out of this requires true artistic talent which is NOT going to be provided by a different user interface. In fact, in all of this, the ONLY benefit of having a timeline interface would be somewhat simplifying tweaking the relative timing of events. That would still be quite tedious, and would not reduce the tedium of the rest of the project at all.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: It's a poor craftsman who blames his tools. A true artist can make a masterpiece with stoneage tools, a normal person will always make normal or even crappy stuff with the best of tools. Although I've occasionally been wrongly accused of having an imagination, I have no shame, when it comes to PC, to put myself firmly in the no-talent class. Now, if you want your fire extinguished, or need to be cut out of a wrecked car, or be rescued from a confined space, I'm better at those things than most folks. But I'm not, never have been, and never will be an artist. And that's true for the vast bulk of the human population.
I do get the point, but I disagree with it. The day/night cycle is just a feature the game has, but it doesn't really serve a purpose gameplay wise outside of maybe management. It does not and should not dictate the way we play the game. You said it yourself, you can set the game permanently on night mode if you want. The game is more about building a themepark (the creative side) than management. And as far as fireoworks or shows in general are concerned, they often are fairly long and it is something the game supports and advertises with as well (you can put as many sequencers in sequencers etc..). There no right or wrong way to play this game.
No one is asking for a "press-here-to-instantly-build-a-fireworks-show" button. The problem is that the current editor is tedious and just not fun to use, regardless of how much artistic talent you have.
Have you ever used the MixMaster in RCT3? It allows you to quickly makes shows, gives very good visual overview, etc, etc. I don't have to prove that a timeline is superior here, just look at all the other editors that work with time ever. Individual talent has nothing to do with the entire discussion. People want to have proper tools to make shows. Tools that make it fun to make shows. Even if you make short shows, the current tools are tedious and frustrating to use putting people off from using them, again, regardless of talent.
You're a poor craftsman who blames it's tools? Lol, okay. Keeping using your headless hammer if you so desire. We want a proper design tool, and currently we don't have this. I know I am repeating myself over and over here, but there really isn't any more to say about it.
The tools we currently have are tedious and frustrating to use, regardless of your your talent. They are user unfriendly, and more often than not, the tools are working more working against you than providing a good experience. People play the game for fun, any currently the sequencer just isn't fun to use.
So you like to clean an airplane-hangar with a toothbrush ? WIsh you lots of luck.
See ya in 3 year, and after that you can lay down to rest, because your knees and back are irreparable damaged. Where is the sin in that doing it to yourself?
Also an artist can only get results with tools that work properly, if the tool does not do what the artist wants, the result is still crap. But not all kind of art needs proper tools, some art is made of crap, that needs no tools, just call it art and sell it for much money.
The actual tool we have takes way too much time to do its works, way too much clicking to arrange things, thats why they need proper tools.
Of course you cant get famous things without creativtiy, not every one is an artist, but that doesnt mean some cant get good results if some has the help of good tools. And at last ... the sin of the game is to have fun, it should inspire you, teach you, and try yourself to get more creative ... in the end, only the result is important, not the way you got though it, its more impressive if you got it with poor tools and even much more time.
In the end you should have fun playing this and maybe learned some things about design. Its like a book, it teaches and showa you, but with a bad writer every book is useless, badly written content will never help to understand and motivate to read more.
And for the fireworks: PC is more than a simple game, its a wonderful tool for creatives in many ways, so every one should have respect for the different types of creativity this game has to offer.
There are the coaster-fanatists, the flatride-fanatists, dark-ride-fanatists, management-fanatists, fireworks-fanatista, shop-fanatists, and lots more.
They all together come into this game, make this game and thisd community to its best.
You should have respect for all the types, even if they are no your personal favourites.
Personaly I dont care much about coasters or fireworks, but I understand that this is importand for others, and I try to do my best to give my feedback on them (which is hated very much here I think ...)
As long as the game no get too much weighted into one direction its fine for me.
Fireworks are part of many parks, so people here want them to do in PC.
Rollercoaster are part of many parks, so people here want them to do in PC.
Darkrides are part of many parks, so people here want them to do in PC.
Shops are part of many parks, so people here want them to do in PC.
Flatrides are part of many parks, so people here want them to do in PC.
Transportations are part of many parks, so people here want them to do in PC.
Parades are part of many parks, so people here want them to do in PC.
Waterrides are part of many parks, so people here want them to do in PC.
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Not at all. Quite the opposite, in fact. You're the one blaming the tools, not me. I fully recognize my own limitations as a non-artist and, therefore, realize that no matter what tools Frontier provides, I will never make anything but crap. You, OTOH, have this mistaken belief that the tools are holding you back. That is symptomatic of being in denial about your own lack of artistic talent. Which is the meaning of "it's a poor craftsman who blames his tools".
You consistently bash PC and Frontier, yet I never see any of your work. Therefore, I have serious doubts that you even play the game at all. But OTOH, this makes me unsure in my diagnosis of our common lack of talent. So prove me wrong. Post up your Workshop, and let all see how many hours you have playing the game. My own Workshop is in my sig, so all can readily see how crappy my own products are any time they want, and how much time I've played the game. Let's see yours.
Um, NO. We all know who the great PC artists are. You don't see them in this thread complaining about how bad things are. No, you see them producing works of art regardless of impediments, because they have the talent to overcome all impediments.
Can't do that yourself? Didn't think so. But hey, neither can I. That just makes us normal. Accept that and move on.
So you say we need to be magicians to do things, or do you say that Frontier should stop developing because no-one of us is an artist and all results will be crap?
First of all, for everything you do you have to use the right tool, also artists need the right tools to do things.
A room-designer needs the same tools to put a picture to a wall than you, needs the same tools to paint something, the difference is: it maybe looks better. But without the tools, without correctly working tool, he can be as good as he wants, it also looks crap, because he cant get the picture to fly or the wall to paint itself.
If Beethoven had played on an unadjusted piano, you think he would have got that popular ? He had talent, or dont you say so, what do you thought he could have done ONLY with his talent to sound good? You say he doesnt need proper tools.
Sorry, I dont get your point here. Talent is of course one thing, but the other thing is that you need the right tools to show your talent or get work done, and because of we cant make the tools by ourselves, we have to ask Frontier for that.
You say your things are crap? In your eyes, but another one might find them good not everyone likes / hates the same. And maybe: if you get the right tool, you are able to make it better, what is wrong to ask for tools that do their job in an adequate time?
You also dont paint a wall green before you paint them in the color you want. You dont wanna waste time if if is not needed (with better, optimized tools), maybe your work is that crap (you said), because of the wrong tools?
Frontier wanted to make a game if we dont ask for features, they could close their door tomorrow and look for another job, and so why dont you go back to the 80s and make a park with an Commodore C64 then?
This is your tool, the goal is a graphic-game like PC on this device. You really think even an artist can get this done because only of his talent ?
You say Frontier are the talents? So why dont they get darkend-rooms with ONLY their talent? Because its not possible with their tool right now (the engine).
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[video=youtube_share;HTXJLN5Sb0U]https://youtu.be/HTXJLN5Sb0U?t=1m7s[/video]
To be honest, I'm not really that talented, but this did not take long at all, and not frustrating. Individually placing effects took maybe 8 hours total (well over 3,500) with the RCT3 editor, placing the actual mortars was the only frustrating bit, which has nothing to do with the timeline format. if it wasn't for PC this would probably be finished. It did definitely disappoint me to see the current sequencer setup.. I would personally love to make something like the video above in PC, but even for smaller shows that fit in with the "theme park" format, this current sequencer is painful to work with if you want to sync to music. Maybe they will tweak it (as well as allow for making custom effects), maybe they won't; I thoroughly enjoy the game so there's still way more for me to enjoy. It would be nice to create something using this engine, and avoid the game crashes that RCT3 suffers from.
Where do I blame the tools for my own lack of talent? Also, this thread has been started by SPRidley, he is one of those great PC artist you talk about. Let's read a few comments, oh what do you know, DeLadysigner and Silvarret agree with this system being bad for what it's trying to do as well!
I am going to say it once again, the entire discussion is about the tool itself being very frustrating to work with. That's all there is to it. Sure, you can disagree with it, but give proper arguments why this system is good, instead of spouting nonsense about artistic talent. If you had to attach some planks using nails, but you get a screwdriver instead of a hammer, how exactly are you a bad craftsman if you complain?
About me 'bashing' the game. I critizise the aspects of the game that aren't well designed. I often praise the game for what it does right, and have said many times I love the game, hence me criticizing the parts of the game that aren't that great; I want the game to each it's full potential. I fail to see how my playtime or creations have anything to do with the issue at hand here. I don't have to be a renowned race-car driver to know that a car without a steeringwheel is going to be pretty frustrating to drive.
Seriously, never go full fanboy.
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I never said anything of the sort. As you and plainly see. Quit this blatant, trolling misquoting.
Nope, I just lack artistic talent. Art starts with vision and inspiration. All tools do is translate this vision from the artist's mental image into a form others can perceive. No matter how good the tool is, no matter how technically skillful I get at using its features, I simply lack the artistic talent needed to come up with the great initial vision that can be developed into what others would perceive as art. Instead, I have mediocre and crappy ideas, which my technical expertise with the tools allows me to turn into mediocre and crappy products. But they're not art, and never will be, because I'm not an artist.
And this is true for the vast bulk of humanity. When a bunch of normal people get together, such as in this forum, and post their normal stuff, it all looks good to them by their own standards, and everybody compliments each other's efforts. And they do this for hundreds of hours so they know all there is to know about how to use the tools they have. But then a true artist comes along once in a while and shows something that blows everybody else's stuff completely away. Yet this work of art was made with the exact same tools the normal people have, and the artist doesn't have any more technical skill in applying those tools than anybody else. So why is the artist's stuff so much better? Because the artist is an artist with artistic talent, and could thus come up with a much better initial concept.
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OK, I asked you to put up or shut up. You did neither. Instead, you fell back on your usual shtick of portraying yourself as the innocent victim when it's pretty obvious you're neither. You don't play the game, so you're not a victim. And you're not innocent because you bash a game you don't play, apparently just to stir up discontent. So you're just a troll, as I've long suspected.
Again, what has me playing the game or not and my creations to do with the sequencer? You fail to give a even a single argument, instead trying to attack me. This alone proves that you know I am right, you are just too stubborn to admit it.
Oh, one more thing: I have posted a link to my workshop before. Maybe try a little harder next time and put some actual effort in your so called 'arguments'. Maybe then you stop making a fool out of yourself.
But this is getting a bit hostile and out of hand. Let's stop the personal attacks end keep the discussion on topic.
A craftsman that cannot tell the difference between good tools and bad tools is a poor craftsman.
No, hes rich, because he can get unbeliveable ! 4 ! copies of the puke-and-pee-game RCTW with this 20$ ...
And if he would be a talent, he could do wonderful parks with this game, with wonderful happy peeps, transportrides, ...
What many dont know ... only talented people are able to reach the 100 % loading-screen and beyond ... [big grin] in truth, this is an indicator for your creativity ... thats why many people never leave that RCTW-loading-screen ... [sulk]
And if he would be a talent, he could do wonderful parks with this game, with wonderful happy peeps, transportrides, ...
What many dont know ... only talented people are able to reach the 100 % loading-screen and beyond ... [big grin] in truth, this is an indicator for your creativity ... thats why many people never leave that RCTW-loading-screen ... [sulk]
Setting up something terrible looking is quite easy with the current sequencer i agree. tuning it to be spot on is the mission almost impossible here [wink]
but seriously, the current sequencer is overseeable as long as there are may be 10 items per group and a couple of groups alltogether. But a serious fireworks show contains hundreds of hundreds of items and with that the sequencer becomes easily difficult to use, having to scroll through endless lists of similar looking items (the bit of coloring doesn't help much). the list shows no visual clue of the duration of the effects nor the various trigger times (trying to visualize the delay times of hundreds of objects is pure madness)
no matter how intuitive the system ought to be, which it is in theory, everything is self-explanatory, but that doesn't change the fact the system is a pure pain to use it for what it is intended.
I can't think of any software that is timeline driven that utilizes a time stamped list with no visual horizontal timeline showing the location of events. I challenge anybody to provide examples of such software that is actually popular.
All software I have used that is time/event based uses a timeline. Video, audio, and animation. All timeline based.
The only reason I can think of for frontier to do it differently, is to discourage "overuse".
All software I have used that is time/event based uses a timeline. Video, audio, and animation. All timeline based.
The only reason I can think of for frontier to do it differently, is to discourage "overuse".
I think it's more a case of convenience. The game already had the trigger system in place, so making it into the current sequencer (just triggers that trigger at a certain time) was fairly easy to do, allowing Frontier to give us the first incarnation of shows in the summer update. I am fairly certain that when the shows aspect of the game gets more fleshed out we will get more effects (water/laser) as well as a proper UI to manage shows, similar to RCT3s MixMaster.
Time will tell.