Deleted member 115407
D
I don't think there is anything wrong with calling a spade a spade.
Do Solo/ Co-op Players have a Future in Elite?
- Thread starter jasonbirder
- Start date
I don't think there is anything wrong with calling a spade a spade.
I feel like I've lost a few pounds just reading this thread.
Sterling MH
Banned
Well, yes, but you're calling the next door's cat a spade.
Deleted member 115407
D
...O...OK?
Okay, I give up. You win. You win all of it. Everything. The internet...as well as a new carrrrr.
I'm not very fond of debate-club copy-pasta deflective buzzwords.
Oh, look, someone raised his voice! Quick, power to "ad hominem logical fallacy strawman intellectual dishonesty!" What else have we got?
Nothing, 'Capn, that's all, but she's holdin' steady!
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OOF Waffe PR
Banned
All modes are not equal. Only the choice is availble to all equaly but the modes themselves differ in difficulty.
Nothing wrong with solo as long as its a true solo and not an undermining multiplayer safety bubble.
Not when you take into consideration FD not implementing NPCs and then fully integrating them into existing content. If they had done, then all this could have been avoided.
FD should have sorted out ED from a solo perspective from the get go, then sorted ED out as an MMO. Tbh, what people fail to realise is that this approach would have been beneficial to all modes. Imo, the way they've handled it makes them look like a third rate developer.
The reality, is that virtually-zero resistance merit running and undermining is an optimal outcome for Powerplay. It always has been. It doesn't matter if you either have a lack of AI clout, or players, the end result is the same. Solo is the optimal mode for Powerplay. Because AI are not particularly involved beyond being a merit source, and certainly do not poses any sort of contextual awareness to "replicate" player behaviours in solo.
When there is a low friction model, versus more friction, it's hardly surprising, at all, that the low friction will be preferred; particularly because there is a) an expectation of zero contact, b) a cost to rebuy and c) some sort of stigma apparently associated. ED have sorted the AI out in the past; in a shock twist, there was the same sort of reaction as we have now.
Lastly, how do you get AI to contextual understand intent? Yeah; AI should scale in threat and capability, that would be quite consistent with most any other game I've seen where AI are supposed to be the counterpoint. But AI are not supposed to be the sole counterpoint with respect to Powerplay (other activities? sure thing). In fact, commanders are. That's the entire point.
So, Frontier has tried to replicate that missing counter-point in solo. I don't think this has been very successful. Hence the recent consideration raised by the developer.
Is this an AI problem to solve, or a player expectation one? They're actually two different concerns.
It's been four years; this was never going to be a simple issue to resolve, let alone even approach. I think Frontier are exceedingly brave and foolhardy to try. Good on them. Either way, they've bothered to at least try. That should be recognised, regardless.
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The funny thing, to me at least is, I read all these threads those like this one, solo is doomed yabba yabba and the ones from the other side of the fence saying open only yabba yabba, and have come to the conclusion that I really dont care for any of it. I will contiune to play ED as I play ED and eveyone else be damed for all I care.
I logged in last night, not in solo but into that well known PG; the reason being, even though Im still 2.5kish Ly out from the bubble Im docked so thought who knows might be someone to throw a o7 at.
I dont do open as my game runs better in solo and Im carring around 6 months and getting on for around 90kLy worth of exploration data so open be damned. (and yes I have very good internet 100up 100down and a ok PC, does that make any differance to how ED runs who knows, for me solo is where I like to play the game)
If ED becomes open only which I dont see happening, and really cant get my head around why people are even thinking this, or maybe they also think the earth is flat, then I shall contiune to play the game as I do now but as I have the choice not to play this game with others I chose to do just that.
I logged in last night, not in solo but into that well known PG; the reason being, even though Im still 2.5kish Ly out from the bubble Im docked so thought who knows might be someone to throw a o7 at.
I dont do open as my game runs better in solo and Im carring around 6 months and getting on for around 90kLy worth of exploration data so open be damned. (and yes I have very good internet 100up 100down and a ok PC, does that make any differance to how ED runs who knows, for me solo is where I like to play the game)
If ED becomes open only which I dont see happening, and really cant get my head around why people are even thinking this, or maybe they also think the earth is flat, then I shall contiune to play the game as I do now but as I have the choice not to play this game with others I chose to do just that.
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People are thinking this because
# Frontier (not players) said they WANT Players IN Open and OUT of Solo/Co-Op modes - so NOT Paranoia, not a hysterical over-reaction a justifiable concern.
OF COURSE Frontier have said that they WON'T do that (YET) but then even NOW Frontier say that Powerplay is "FOR EVERY PLAYER" "EVERY PLAYER CAN INFLUENCE" etc etc (feel free to check out the Frontier Page for powerplay - plenty of references to EVERYBODY being able to participate, a reference to PvP activity being OPTIONAL https://www.elitedangerous.com/en/story/powerplay)
SO presumably if Frontier can do a U-turn on those overtly printed statements that are part of their pitch to attract new customers, there's NOTHING to stop them doing a 180 degree on ANYTHING they choose in order to drive the solo/co-op mode Playerbase away from the game.
Open doesn't have high-res screenshots.
Anyway, here is I think the initial precedent (on release day, no less) for "some features available only in certain modes": https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/76535-Race-to-Elite-Competition
Thats another thing I dont understand why do FD want more people in open. Oh Im not saying it wont happen I dont belive anytthing FD says tbh, I guess I hope FD are not that stupid.
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It seems to me that FDev have suddenly decided that Power Play should be “all about the pew pew” despite it being originally touted as a Risk-style “game of influence”. Whilst making such a change might be seen to be an improvement to PP by some, surely folks can see why people who prefer to play the strategy angle would be upset about game content being removed from their preferred mode?
My favourite argument so far, though, runs thusly:
PvP Player: Yay, PP is going Open Only!
PvE Player: But I don’t want to play in Open, folks have hugely OP ships due to simply having more time to grind than me so I’ll stand no chance
PvP Player: Nah, it’s laughably easy to escape another player interdiction in Open - here’s a vid (of someone with waaay too much time in ED) showing how easy it is
PvE Player: If that’s true then what’s the point moving everyone to Open? It’s just going to waste everyone’s time and force some payers into a mode they don’t like for no material change in outcome?
PvP Player: Er ... um ... undermining ... GIT GUD!
My favourite argument so far, though, runs thusly:
PvP Player: Yay, PP is going Open Only!
PvE Player: But I don’t want to play in Open, folks have hugely OP ships due to simply having more time to grind than me so I’ll stand no chance
PvP Player: Nah, it’s laughably easy to escape another player interdiction in Open - here’s a vid (of someone with waaay too much time in ED) showing how easy it is
PvE Player: If that’s true then what’s the point moving everyone to Open? It’s just going to waste everyone’s time and force some payers into a mode they don’t like for no material change in outcome?
PvP Player: Er ... um ... undermining ... GIT GUD!
.. they are concerned this will create a wedge where Frontier will turn solo instances off tomorrow. That's a fair concern, but not a particularly logical one. I'm not sure the full nuclear option for powerplay is a good way to present that concern, though? And I dare say, any solid ground to argue for improvements anywhere else, is lost.
Once cannot refuse to allow the developer to try and repair a situation, and then be taken seriously when immediately asking to repair a different situation. This is being a little dishonest, imho.
Folks worked exceedingly diligently to have frontier wind back AI changes; so much so, that they eventually had to invent space-swat (ATC) to deal with miscreant behaviour, which of course was complained about because this meant people were actually being held accountable.
There is a bit of a pattern there. Regardless of personal opinion, have found this debate to be interesting and I do hope Frontier is able to find a way forward.
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Speaks volumes.
Sterling MH
Banned
OK then. So since there is no argument to "It's unfair that people can PP in solo when I do it in Open",this is null and void. Was there any other argument why it should be taken Open only? If not, then the motion fails and it stays as it is.
Fixed that for you. "Tomorrow" was YOUR strawman. Own it or don't play it.
Sterling MH
Banned
And that is part of the world? OK. SoSolo doesn't have any other players. Plus no wings, no multicrew, no carriers, no squadrons.
And remember I was responding to the old Steptoe bloke shouting in his undies "SOMEBODY FIGHT ME!!!" when he claimed that Solo got every part of the game. All I have to show is one where solo doesn't get and his claim is falsified. No matter if solo had blackjack and hookers.
According to the "Come to open,it's lovely here, there's virtually zero resistance merit running in Open. So please try another argument.
Sterling MH
Banned
Sorry, you can't complain about that because all modes are NOT equal, they're just equally VALID. Blatant advantage is void, because the modes aren't *equal*, just one is no less right than the others.
No. Solo players have no future in this game. Who cares for all the improvements to the Solo players' game this year (mining, exploration, engineers, planetary upgrades, new ships). A feature derided by most will be Open only, so you have no future. None at all. Its all over man.
Will be interesting. Hope they are able to just move ahead with something for a change without caving in. Improved AI, shield re-balancing, now this: FD typically has much better ideas than our anxiety ridden, change averse and emotionally unstable crusaders. There comes a point where FD will have to say:"Sorry guys, but we have been thinking and ED should be more than a game where you can mess up other people's game in your invincible spaceships without any AI opposition by grinding forever in solo."
Sure, will deeply frustrate some people. But will make the game infinitely better, and attract a ton of people who are clearly interested in sci-fi but not interesting in a mindless, riskfree, grind-heavy game design.
Will be interesting. Hope they are able to just move ahead with something for a change without caving in. Improved AI, shield re-balancing, now this: FD typically has much better ideas than our anxiety ridden, change averse and emotionally unstable crusaders. There comes a point where FD will have to say:"Sorry guys, but we have been thinking and ED should be more than a game where you can mess up other people's game in your invincible spaceships without any AI opposition by grinding forever in solo."
Sure, will deeply frustrate some people. But will make the game infinitely better, and attract a ton of people who are clearly interested in sci-fi but not interesting in a mindless, riskfree, grind-heavy game design.
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