ED Server / Servers Down problems discussion thread

[Ende]

Don't be too pleased about the cash for credits. I've seen many a post on other websites, where it's very much frowned upon/gamers avoid such games. FD could be narrowing their potential audience and by extension, hurting themselves in the process.

This is actually an extremely valid point.

As we have tried to explain in other threads the whole "cash-for-credits" model is frowned upon by gamers out there. Once people see that theres a system to buy credits with real money then they tend to avoid the game altogether. They wont even read a review of the game, they certainly wont play a demo and definitely wont buy the game.

Thats the established attitude of gamers im afraid.

Ive also argued that being able to buy credits ingame off the game itself has zero effect on the "goldsellers". Theyll simply sell credits cheaper than u can buy from the game. Selling your own credits does not kill off the illegal credit sellers, it never has and never will.

I feel the only reason Frontier want to sell credits ingame is cos they see this as the only possible way to raise revenue. I think there are many avenue they need to look down.

Im convinced there are other ways of raising steady income from the game, all we have to do is find them

 

[Davidtq]

This is actually an extremely valid point.

As we have tried to explain in other threads the whole "cash-for-credits" model is frowned upon by gamers out there. Once people see that theres a system to buy credits with real money then they tend to avoid the game altogether. They wont even read a review of the game, they certainly wont play a demo and definitely wont buy the game.

Thats the established attitude of gamers im afraid.

Ive also argued that being able to buy credits ingame off the game itself has zero effect on the "goldsellers". Theyll simply sell credits cheaper than u can buy from the game. Selling your own credits does not kill off the illegal credit sellers, it never has and never will.

I feel the only reason Frontier want to sell credits ingame is cos they see this as the only possible way to raise revenue. I think there are many avenue they need to look down.

Im convinced there are other ways of raising steady income from the game, all we have to do is find them

EVE onlines growth hasn't slowed at all since the introduction of plex an official channel of cash for credits. Its growth trajectory remains pretty much identical to pre Plex Circa 2008.

Theres plenty of resistance to the "idea" of cash for credits, lots of people who seriously seem to think that it equates to large numbers of people paying to win, when it really doesnt need to. But the reality is that it can and has blended right in to mainstream games without destroying their playability or their attractiveness to players.

 

[SoanoS]

Another idea:

Frontier Development could make a deal with GoG.com and sell Elite series (Elite, Elite 2: Frontier, Frontier: First Encounters) in a bundle or separately trough them.

This would create some revenue to support the development and running the servers, and would also give more awareness of the name "Elite". This, in turn, might inspire more players to join our universe.

 

[Ende]

Theres plenty of resistance to the "idea" of cash for credits, lots of people who seriously seem to think that it equates to large numbers of people paying to win, when it really doesnt need to. But the reality is that it can and has blended right in to mainstream games without destroying their playability or their attractiveness to players.

My point is that it doesnt matter if "cash for credits" means u can pay to win or not... the fact a game has any form of buying credits that will be enough to keep players away.

 

[Davidtq]

My point is that it doesnt matter if "cash for credits" means u can pay to win or not... the fact a game has any form of buying credits that will be enough to keep players away.

You can buy gold in wow http://www.wowgoldeuro.com , it doesnt stop people playing.

You can buy currency in eve through official channels yet wow wishes it had EVEs growth rates. It hasnt stopped any significant numbers of players playing either game.

People dont like the idea but it wont stop them playing it hasnt had any affect on large numbers of players for any other mmo whether the cash for currency has been official or unofficial very few games havent had it available one way or another.

 

[Ende]

You can buy gold in wow http://www.wowgoldeuro.com , it doesnt stop people playing.

You can buy currency in eve through official channels yet wow wishes it had EVEs growth rates. It hasnt stopped any significant numbers of players playing either game.

People dont like the idea but it wont stop them playing it hasnt had any affect on large numbers of players for any other mmo whether the cash for currency has been official or unofficial very few games havent had it available one way or another.

Ur mixing up what im saying.

Games which use "cash for credits" refers to official online credit buying only. These games always get a reputation of being "pay to win".

Games wuch as Wow have a strong illegal "goldsellers" culture and my point is that nothing can ever be done about that. Games which Goldsellers target will always have that problem and theres not much that can be done about it unless the game itself manages to police it.

Wow wont be effected by "cash for credit" because it doesnt officially sell credits which means it cannot be labelled as "pay to win".

 

[Davidtq]

Ur mixing up what im saying.

Games which use "cash for credits" refers to official online credit buying only. These games always get a reputation of being "pay to win".

Games wuch as Wow have a strong illegal "goldsellers" culture and my point is that nothing can ever be done about that. Games which Goldsellers target will always have that problem and theres not much that can be done about it unless the game itself manages to police it.

Wow wont be effected by "cash for credit" because it doesnt officially sell credits which means it cannot be labelled as "pay to win".

Right so illegal transactions means that players dont get any advantage by paying for currency but as soon as you bring it in house it becomes pay to win...

EVE online has official currency purchase through plex but is not considered pay to win by any stretch of the imagination.

Your argument is based on fear of what COULD be, not what is guaranteed to be. Yes there are examples of badly done real money transactions but theres also plenty of examples where it doesnt have any major negative affects and just provides an extra stream of income.

Cash for currency in no way means pay to win, most especially in a game which is going to be based so heavily on individual player skill...

The fact is that the game will either have people buying credits legally or illegally. The devs might as well take the money instead of the farmers...

If people really fear that Frontier are going to design the game to screw over players as much as possible to exact as much cash as possible why bother to be here?

I have no intention of being a major credit buyer (traditionally Ive been one of the illegal sellers) but I have enough faith that the game is going to rock that Ive pledge a good chunk of cash to get life time expansions and first beta.

 

[Slawkenbergius]

I'm sure Frontier will do their best to make cash for credits as unobtrusive as possible. The last thing they would want is bad publicity surrounding the pay-to-win/pay-to-unlock issue. Assuming Frontier get it right, then any bad-mouthing from people who haven't played the game will hopefully be drowned out by those of us who have.

 

[Ende]

The devs might as well take the money instead of the farmers...

It wont make any difference if Frontier sell credits or not... the illegal credit sellers will exist anyway. They always do.

If people really fear that Frontier are going to design the game to screw over players as much as possible to exact as much cash as possible why bother to be here?

Ive said before... it doesnt matter how little influence the credits have on game progress, many players will avoid the game simply because credits r for sale.

I agree credit purchase wont affect progress from what ive seen with current game design, but u cant convince people who know nothing about the game that this is the case. Current gamers culture is to avoid games which sell credits... maybe this culture will change when ED is released?

Im merely afraid that ED will lose a section of gamers by having this credit purchase system within the game... itll be a shame. Its difficult to measure how many players wont even try ED because of this but there will be players who will intentioannly avoid it whether u like it or not.

 

[Davidtq]

It wont make any difference if Frontier sell credits or not... the illegal credit sellers will exist anyway. They always do.

In order for the sellers to exist they have to be able to gain credits through in game means fast enough to make it worthwhile to sell them. In a game with no official channel that depends on what they can gouge the buyers for, in a game with official channels they have to have prices lower than frontiers (where frontier dont need to do any work to generate credits) by enough to tempt people to move away from the safety of the official solution. My experience of the illegal currency market is that transactions are always somewhat nervous transactions with so many potential pitfalls. When there is an official channel how much cheaper do farmers credits need to be to risk account bans card scams etc etc.

Frontier have next to no costs involved in the generating of credits therefore they CAN always supply credits at a rate that would undercut the farmers, however they done NEED to undercut them, the safety and sanction of a official channel makes their offering FAR more attractive.

Frontier also hold the reins for just how much the farmers can generate by being able to rework systems as and where they feel necessary. This will be FAR more effective when they also have their own supply mechanism. Elites "twitch" game play nature is going to make it FAR harder for farmers to automate their currency generation as well. the more keyboard time a farmer has to put in to earn credits the higher the price he HAS to charge to put a roof over his head.

I know for myself as a former currency seller that an official solution would have seriously killed my ability to trade, as it was I had to undercut the farmers, but I could afford to do so, as my credit generation methods were far more efficient than what the farmers were doing.

I really do see an official venue for credit sales putting a huge gate on professional farmers.

Ive said before... it doesnt matter how little influence the credits have on game progress, many players will avoid the game simply because credits r for sale.

I agree credit purchase wont affect progress from what ive seen with current game design, but u cant convince people who know nothing about the game that this is the case. Current gamers culture is to avoid games which sell credits... maybe this culture will change when ED is released?

Im merely afraid that ED will lose a section of gamers by having this credit purchase system within the game... itll be a shame. Its difficult to measure how many players wont even try ED because of this but there will be players who will intentioannly avoid it whether u like it or not.

Im almost certain that a far greater percentage of players will be put off by a lack of elves in skimpy clothing and large shoulder pauldrons. Also the idea of actually manually piloting a ship in real time and actually aiming and actually firing will put even more players off.

Im fairly certain that the game wont be materially affected by the decision frontier have taken, and once the glowing reviews go out and the word of mouth spreads, those who like the idea of actually flying a ship will be tempted to come over despite the credit sales being available, whereas those with a liking for said skimpy clothed Elves and Swords wont be tempted regardless of whether credits are sold or not.

However as far as we can see the decision has been made. I will get to see whether I have been right for the best part of 10 years that Ive been saying this is the way forward. Of course I could be entirely wrong and frontier could try to cook the golden goose by making it genuinely pay to win, in which case ive wasted a good chunk of change for my beliefs

 

[Bromley86]

@Ende. It's worth noting that, whenever it comes up, Davidtq always says that £2.5 per 1,000 credits is the right exchange rate to start at. When you look at the FFE prices he's basing that on, you realise that £1 per 1,000 credits is still far higher than 99% would pay.

So we're not talking about something that'd be prevalent. If a few want to subsidise the many, then let them. At those prices it won't even get mentioned in reviews.

 

[Cmdr Andy B]

the 'pay to win' argument also requires there be a win to buy, in a game where we are buying a virtual life winning is what we define it to be, someone may have loads of fun spending all their time as a poor asteroid miner, have they lost the game because they dont have the best ship and the badest weapons? no.

has the person who spends cash on credits bought himself more fun? maybe so, but it will just mean there is more fun for me in blowing him or her to atoms and pirating their cargo.

I don't see ED as being pay to win or even play to win, more play for your own enjoyment.

remember, fun is not a finite resource - there is enough for everyone to have their share.

 

[Cmdr M.G.Dangerous]

the 'pay to win' argument also requires there be a win to buy...

Pay-to-dominate, Pay-to-ruin-somebody-else's-day, pay-to-leap-ahead, pay-to-unlevel-the-playing-field, pay-to-rub-somebody's-nose-in-it, pay-to-progress-faster, pay-to-lose-less-combats. I've witnessed all these behaviors in online games. Not having a clear definition of win doesn't stop people from behaving that way.

 

[Cmdr Andy B]

Pay-to-dominate, Pay-to-ruin-somebody-else's-day, pay-to-leap-ahead, pay-to-unlevel-the-playing-field, pay-to-rub-somebody's-nose-in-it, pay-to-progress-faster, pay-to-lose-less-combats. I've witnessed all these behaviors in online games. Not having a clear definition of win doesn't stop people from behaving that way.

but not having a definition does reduce the impact, if i start playing 6 months after launch all those same conditions you mention would still apply regardless of cash for credit sales, I'll lose more combats, have less than average progress, have my day ruined on occasion by pirates if i stray out of the safer zones before i'm ready and for the same reason have to contend with an unlevel playing field, given the known mechanics of even the original game i can't see cash as making a significant difference to the individual user who doesn't buy credits.

 

[Jason S]

I ticked:
Cash for Credits
Vanity Items
Advertising

Basically because I fancy the idea of online play but certainly do not wish to have to spend more than the large sum of money I already have on this game. Subscriptions make the cost of the game huge after a few years.

I don't mind people being more powerful than me and do not mind how they got there, which mirrors real life (Inheritance, better jobs, marriage, luck etc). So this is why I do not mind Cash for Credits.

I don't mind others paying for vanity items so long as I do not have to.

Advertising I really do not mind I just will ignore it as I do always and for me it will not harm the immersion.

 

[Memnoch]

I don't mind others paying for vanity items so long as I do not have to.

Imagine a game that forced you to buy vanity items! I voted that choice as there are enough vain people out there to fund this stuff till the end of time, you only have to look at the proliferation of F2P games out there now to know that to be true.

 

[SoanoS]

Seems my suggestion to put all the older Elite series games available on GoG.com as part of the funding model for server costs and expansion development got completely buried under the heated "pay2win" argument. Oh, well.

 

[insanephoton]

Seems my suggestion to put all the older Elite series games available on GoG.com as part of the funding model for server costs and expansion development got completely buried under the heated "pay2win" argument. Oh, well.

It's a pity because it was a good suggestion and thinking outside of the box of the original suggestions of subscription or credits for cash.

To be honest the 'pay to win' argument is something of a moot point with the different starts available at different pledge levels. Effectively we already have cash for credits in some form and perhaps even vanity items (£5 for extra decals). The whole argument has been played out over various forums in many games and I haven't seen anything new added on either side of the argument.

Another potential source of income would be merchandising. Everything from artwork books and prints to plushie toys (think plush Weighted Companion Cube from Portal http://http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/a9e0/ ). Maybe Frontier could do a plush Coriolis station. We've seen cufflinks and had the suggestion of tie pin/clip, how about something for the ladies? Ear rings based on ships perhaps? maybe even pendants or necklaces? even a charm bracelet with all 25 initial ships as charms? I'm sure that many of you could come up with even better ideas for merchandise.

 

[Cmdr Andy B]

Seems my suggestion to put all the older Elite series games available on GoG.com as part of the funding model for server costs and expansion development got completely buried under the heated "pay2win" argument. Oh, well.

its a good idea but all of them are already available as a free download, a bit late to start charging for them now, plus why pay for the original Elite when you can get Oolite for free?

 

[SoanoS]

its a good idea but all of them are already available as a free download, a bit late to start charging for them now, plus why pay for the original Elite when you can get Oolite for free?

They are? All of them? Hmm. I must have looked in the wrong way.

Well, GoG.com team could do some work to create an installer package with bugfixes and with ensured compatibility for new operating systems such as Win7 and Win8. Sadly, not everyone has the know-how to set the games up.