Elite / Frontier Elite - Amiga Version - Detail questions
- Thread starter Stardust
- Start date
i guess i either failed to get out or made kills then.
Another update: Ian has replied:
Hi Philipp
I'm afarid I don't have a contact address for Rob Nicholson and don't know much about the Amiga version. I think it is different in some ways from the 6502 versions I know about. I don't know the answers to most of your questions.
4. In 6502 Elite Witchspace is always the same regardless of your rating I think; we were too short of memory to add much stuff like this.
6. We did put a "Welcome to Galaxy 9" message in 6502 Elite if Gaaxy Nine was entered (required very little memory), but no way to get to galaxy 9. This was in case we wanted to later distribute saved game positions in Galaxy 9, or to "reward" anybody who hacked a save file just right.
8. Do you mean Elite 1 and 2 on the Amiga?
namaste
Ian Bell
So, unfortunately, we don't know much more now (still, we have some answers). Regarding question 8: No, I meant Elite v1.0 and Elite v2.0 -- both are "Elite 1", both are done by Mr. Micro.
I wonder what the exact "seed" for galaxy 9 would be. Can this be determined from the values of the other 8 galaxies?! I'll look into this as well, so that we can look into galaxy 9 by SARA hopping
... [Obviously, though, the six bytes used for the seed can have any number, so we can visit all -- hmmm -- 256^6 = 65.536^3 = 280 * 10^12 galaxies....]
Hi Philipp
I'm afarid I don't have a contact address for Rob Nicholson and don't know much about the Amiga version. I think it is different in some ways from the 6502 versions I know about. I don't know the answers to most of your questions.
4. In 6502 Elite Witchspace is always the same regardless of your rating I think; we were too short of memory to add much stuff like this.
6. We did put a "Welcome to Galaxy 9" message in 6502 Elite if Gaaxy Nine was entered (required very little memory), but no way to get to galaxy 9. This was in case we wanted to later distribute saved game positions in Galaxy 9, or to "reward" anybody who hacked a save file just right.
8. Do you mean Elite 1 and 2 on the Amiga?
namaste
Ian Bell
So, unfortunately, we don't know much more now (still, we have some answers). Regarding question 8: No, I meant Elite v1.0 and Elite v2.0 -- both are "Elite 1", both are done by Mr. Micro.
I wonder what the exact "seed" for galaxy 9 would be. Can this be determined from the values of the other 8 galaxies?! I'll look into this as well, so that we can look into galaxy 9 by SARA hopping
... [Obviously, though, the six bytes used for the seed can have any number, so we can visit all -- hmmm -- 256^6 = 65.536^3 = 280 * 10^12 galaxies....]
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Here are the seeds for the official galaxies (1 - 8):
Galaxy 1: 5A 4A 02 48 B7 53
Galaxy 2: B4 94 04 90 6F A6
Galaxy 3: 69 29 08 21 DE 4D
Galaxy 4: D2 52 10 42 BD 9A
Galaxy 5: A5 A4 20 84 7B 35
Galaxy 6: 4B 49 40 09 F6 6A
Galaxy 7: 96 92 80 12 ED D4
Galaxy 8: 2D 25 01 24 DB A9
(I have learned those by looking at the bytes 0E-13 in the SARA cheat; 0D is just the number of the galaxy that is displayed; i.e. if you change 0D to 01, it will display "galaxy 2", but the galaxy will have the contents of the seed following in the bytes 0E-13. So, if you write 01 5A 4A 02 48 B7 53, it will _display_ galaxy 2, but you'll actually be in galaxy 1).
What can be learned from these numbers?! Not much, I fear
Each galaxy is _almost_ double the value of the previous one; but not exactly (left shifting yields no different results; and I have experimented with different endian different datatypes i.e. 2-byte values; no luck; it's just not _exactly_ twice the value).
We can also see that galaxies 5-8 are "mirrors" of galaxies 1-4. So, if we can determine an "intended" (or logical) galaxy 9, this would mean, a logical galaxy 10 would also exist. (Mirror of galaxy 9).
If, however, we look at byte 3 for each galaxy seed (02, 04, 08, 10, 20, 40, 80, 01), it is clear that the sequence is already complete. Hence, we don't have a "logical" galaxy 9.
As I have stated before though (and as you all know, I suppose), we can have "unlimited" galaxies by setting these bytes to all values from 00 00 00 00 00 00 to FF FF FF FF FF FF...
So, I can personally rest the case for "Galaxy 9": In the Amiga version, no galaxy 9 exists. Other thoughts?
(N.b.: It might be interesting for you to know that "Human Colonial" and -- surprisingly -- "Slimy Lizard" are the _only_ life forms present in all 8 galaxies (!), and "Humal Colonial" is the most common by far.
In total, however, 470 distinct races exist in the 8 galaxies and most of them occur on only one single planet....
Just a short extract from my database; I am going to publish the findings in more detail as soon as I have completed it)
Galaxy 1: 5A 4A 02 48 B7 53
Galaxy 2: B4 94 04 90 6F A6
Galaxy 3: 69 29 08 21 DE 4D
Galaxy 4: D2 52 10 42 BD 9A
Galaxy 5: A5 A4 20 84 7B 35
Galaxy 6: 4B 49 40 09 F6 6A
Galaxy 7: 96 92 80 12 ED D4
Galaxy 8: 2D 25 01 24 DB A9
(I have learned those by looking at the bytes 0E-13 in the SARA cheat; 0D is just the number of the galaxy that is displayed; i.e. if you change 0D to 01, it will display "galaxy 2", but the galaxy will have the contents of the seed following in the bytes 0E-13. So, if you write 01 5A 4A 02 48 B7 53, it will _display_ galaxy 2, but you'll actually be in galaxy 1).
What can be learned from these numbers?! Not much, I fear
Each galaxy is _almost_ double the value of the previous one; but not exactly (left shifting yields no different results; and I have experimented with different endian different datatypes i.e. 2-byte values; no luck; it's just not _exactly_ twice the value).
We can also see that galaxies 5-8 are "mirrors" of galaxies 1-4. So, if we can determine an "intended" (or logical) galaxy 9, this would mean, a logical galaxy 10 would also exist. (Mirror of galaxy 9).
If, however, we look at byte 3 for each galaxy seed (02, 04, 08, 10, 20, 40, 80, 01), it is clear that the sequence is already complete. Hence, we don't have a "logical" galaxy 9.
As I have stated before though (and as you all know, I suppose), we can have "unlimited" galaxies by setting these bytes to all values from 00 00 00 00 00 00 to FF FF FF FF FF FF...
So, I can personally rest the case for "Galaxy 9": In the Amiga version, no galaxy 9 exists. Other thoughts?
(N.b.: It might be interesting for you to know that "Human Colonial" and -- surprisingly -- "Slimy Lizard" are the _only_ life forms present in all 8 galaxies (!), and "Humal Colonial" is the most common by far.
In total, however, 470 distinct races exist in the 8 galaxies and most of them occur on only one single planet....
Just a short extract from my database; I am going to publish the findings in more detail as soon as I have completed it
)
My first experience with Elite was the Amiga version, why is it considered a bit lame?
Pink Thargoids
I think the general consensus was that they did not improve on the 8 bit game.
I think the general consensus was that they did not improve on the 8 bit game.
Thargoids are too easy to kill and they do not launch Thargons (actually, they do -- but way too late, when the Thargoid is way too close and already heavily damaged, so the Thargons, if they are launched, generally pose no thread).
Also, according to a very bad review (here: http://amr.abime.net/review_4955), the game "lacks soul". Something which is debatable (I disagree), but it seems to be the general consensus that the version for the Amiga is not as revolutionary as it could have been, considering the technical possibilities of the Amiga. [Also, the reviewer in question does not seem to have gotten very far: Escape from witch-space impossible?! Puurrleeease...]
Meh. Still a great game, and I love the Amiga version.
Also, according to a very bad review (here: http://amr.abime.net/review_4955), the game "lacks soul". Something which is debatable (I disagree), but it seems to be the general consensus that the version for the Amiga is not as revolutionary as it could have been, considering the technical possibilities of the Amiga. [Also, the reviewer in question does not seem to have gotten very far: Escape from witch-space impossible?! Puurrleeease...]
Meh. Still a great game, and I love the Amiga version
.
Meh. Still a great game, and I love the Amiga version
As do I, also glad you got a response from Mr Bell. I have put the word out to other places too. Hopefully someone somewhere can help.
As I said to Geraldine elsewhere, It might be worth asking this on the Oolite forums - they/we call ourselves "the friendliest board this side of Reidquat" and there's usually someone there who can answer a question like this.
Although I remember some of the stuff you were asking about, I was just a player and never really hacked into the game or paid much attention to the specific way that the difficulty increased other than noting that there were more Thargoids the higher the rank got.
Sorry I can't be much more help. :-(
Although I remember some of the stuff you were asking about, I was just a player and never really hacked into the game or paid much attention to the specific way that the difficulty increased other than noting that there were more Thargoids the higher the rank got.
Sorry I can't be much more help. :-(
Thanks Geraldine, and thanks Selezen! I'll give the Oolite Board a shot.
Can someone else remember the Amiga sources of Elite being made public??
We'll see
I'll keep you guys posted in any case -- and I have to say: It's incredible to see how many are interested in the game as such and (still) like playing it
It's so exciting to contact the other veterans...
Can someone else remember the Amiga sources of Elite being made public??
We'll see
I'll keep you guys posted in any case -- and I have to say: It's incredible to see how many are interested in the game as such and (still) like playing it
It's so exciting to contact the other veterans...
Some answers from the Oolite Guys (posted it in the wrong thread earlier, apologies...):
From cim:
2: According to the FAQ, the missions in the Amiga version are "Supernova", "Constrictor", "Thargoid Documents", "Thargoid Invasion" and "Cloaking Device". I would guess triggers are the same as in the other Elite versions with those missions (adjusted a bit for score instead of kills in the case of the two/three that are kill-triggered)... so:
Nova: G4, with Galactic Hyperdrive fitted, no minimum kills
Constrictor: G1/2, with sufficient kills (half way to Dangerous?)
Thargoid Documents: G3, with sufficient kills (~half way to Deadly?)
Thargoid Invasion: ??
Cloaking Device: G5, ???
3: Works on some versions but not others, as I understand it. No idea if it's meant to work on Amiga.
6: There was in some versions, but no idea if the Amiga version was one. Possibly part of the "Thargoid Invasion" mission, if that's what I think it is...
7: 0E-13 will be the initial galaxy seed, then. 5A4A 0248 B753 for the default charts. Random_Number_Generator has more details on how that is expanded to the galaxy, and OoliteInfo is a convenient way to play with different seed values (though note that because it's an Oolite-based app the planet descriptions there use the Oolite algorithm, not the Elite algorithm, and there are subtle differences in the text)
From JazHaz:
5: the only tactic I remember that worked was to use the retro rockets to thrust backwards and put some distance on the Thargoids, enabling you to take them on at long range.
From cim:
2: According to the FAQ, the missions in the Amiga version are "Supernova", "Constrictor", "Thargoid Documents", "Thargoid Invasion" and "Cloaking Device". I would guess triggers are the same as in the other Elite versions with those missions (adjusted a bit for score instead of kills in the case of the two/three that are kill-triggered)... so:
Nova: G4, with Galactic Hyperdrive fitted, no minimum kills
Constrictor: G1/2, with sufficient kills (half way to Dangerous?)
Thargoid Documents: G3, with sufficient kills (~half way to Deadly?)
Thargoid Invasion: ??
Cloaking Device: G5, ???
3: Works on some versions but not others, as I understand it. No idea if it's meant to work on Amiga.
6: There was in some versions, but no idea if the Amiga version was one. Possibly part of the "Thargoid Invasion" mission, if that's what I think it is...
7: 0E-13 will be the initial galaxy seed, then. 5A4A 0248 B753 for the default charts. Random_Number_Generator has more details on how that is expanded to the galaxy, and OoliteInfo is a convenient way to play with different seed values (though note that because it's an Oolite-based app the planet descriptions there use the Oolite algorithm, not the Elite algorithm, and there are subtle differences in the text)
From JazHaz:
5: the only tactic I remember that worked was to use the retro rockets to thrust backwards and put some distance on the Thargoids, enabling you to take them on at long range.
Oooouch...
Math grade: F. The operation to use is a bit rotation, of course, so each byte is exactly doubled. Example: 53.
53 is binary 0101 0011, rotating yields 1010 0110: A6
1010 0110 => 0100 1101: 4D
0100 1101 => 1001 1010: 9A
etc... So, in conclusion: There are exactly 8 possible galaxies from this "one" seed. A 9th galaxy would have to use different numbers and would not logically follow from this seed.
Did I get it right this time?!
@Selezen: Wow, thanks for your help! As stated, I will try out the Oolite forum later on (busy now, unfortunately). Do any of you guys know Rob's mail address??
Regarding the missions: "Halfway" to Dangerous for Mission 1: Well. I doubt it. The thing is this: I have played Elite with my current commander (Stardust of course
) and reached 174.000 points. Rating is Dangerous -- and no mission occured so far. BUT: I have definitely completed this mission once before (on WinUAE) and I am almost certain that I had not played to a Dangerous rating. Then again: It is elsewhere stated that the first mission occurs at (about) 175.000 points (this refers to the MSX version, but I think Rob has done that as well http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/MSX_Elite).
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Gaaah! Somewhat frustrating . My commander is now at 180.000 points and there's still no first mission!! How do I trigger it??
I have read here: http://www.2ndmoon.de/verschiedenes/elite/elite.html (german only, sorry) that in Elite "Advanced" (which is a disassembled and modified version of Elite), the first mission is triggered after "64 hyper jumps and 1 intergalactic hyper jump" (which sounds like bogus to me, because I _know_ that I have completed the first mission in the first galaxy without any galactic hyperjump -- of course I played Elite; not Elite Advanced, but I doubt that there'll be a difference regarding the missions).
Nevertheless, I gave it a shot just now (after I reached 178.000 points) and jumped to galaxy 2. To no avail: I jumped to a couple of systems here (was nearly shot by an ASP I "overlooked"), docked, traded, but nothing else happened...
No more witch-space either, so far. It's been (too) smooth sailing the last couple of days...
. My commander is now at 180.000 points and there's still no first mission!! How do I trigger it??I have read here: http://www.2ndmoon.de/verschiedenes/elite/elite.html (german only, sorry) that in Elite "Advanced" (which is a disassembled and modified version of Elite), the first mission is triggered after "64 hyper jumps and 1 intergalactic hyper jump" (which sounds like bogus to me, because I _know_ that I have completed the first mission in the first galaxy without any galactic hyperjump -- of course I played Elite; not Elite Advanced, but I doubt that there'll be a difference regarding the missions).
Nevertheless, I gave it a shot just now (after I reached 178.000 points) and jumped to galaxy 2. To no avail: I jumped to a couple of systems here (was nearly shot by an ASP I "overlooked"
), docked, traded, but nothing else happened... No more witch-space either, so far. It's been (too) smooth sailing the last couple of days...
so it's "Patience, young Padawan" for me, eh? --- ooups. Wrong Game
But -- I'll wait some more then...
i will make a point of playing some more to help your research tomorrow.
though im a good bit behind you in points i believe.
Thanks redborg -- I appreciate your help!! [And my previous message was in no way meant as hinting at the opposite; I was just indicating that I'm unnerved at the first mission not showing up]
Yeah, I seem to remember, too, that the mission is triggered upon arrival.
But I am pretty certain that it wasn't at 170.000 points; it was earlier I think. So there's something else missing.
Short distances between planets: Why not try Legees and Laeden in Galaxy 1?! Their distance: 0.0 light years! (Actually, that's not so uncommon in Amiga Elite: iirc there are 24 planets with "no distance" in total). Do you actually use fuel if you go back and forth between them?? (How to select those planets? Well, click the first one -- that's easy. Once there, in order to select the other one, you'll have to "find" it in the galaxy view. I.e. hit f, type the name, hit return, and hyperspace to it).
-- I appreciate your help!! [And my previous message was in no way meant as hinting at the opposite; I was just indicating that I'm unnerved at the first mission not showing up]Yeah, I seem to remember, too, that the mission is triggered upon arrival.
But I am pretty certain that it wasn't at 170.000 points; it was earlier I think. So there's something else missing.
Short distances between planets: Why not try Legees and Laeden in Galaxy 1?! Their distance: 0.0 light years! (Actually, that's not so uncommon in Amiga Elite: iirc there are 24 planets with "no distance" in total). Do you actually use fuel if you go back and forth between them?? (How to select those planets? Well, click the first one -- that's easy. Once there, in order to select the other one, you'll have to "find" it in the galaxy view. I.e. hit f, type the name, hit return, and hyperspace to it).
Thanks redborg
Yeah, I seem to remember, too, that the mission is triggered upon arrival.
But I am pretty certain that it wasn't at 170.000 points; it was earlier I think. So there's something else missing.
Short distances between planets: Why not try Legees and Laeden in Galaxy 1?! Their distance: 0.0 light years! (Actually, that's not so uncommon in Amiga Elite: iirc there are 24 planets with "no distance" in total). Do you actually use fuel if you go back and forth between them?? (How to select those planets? Well, click the first one -- that's easy. Once there, in order to select the other one, you'll have to "find" it in the galaxy view. I.e. hit f, type the name, hit return, and hyperspace to it).
david braben said recently that theese planets were 0.1 apart so i guess you use some fuel. but 70 jumps is possible with no fueling.
you need equipment for the first mission i think a fuel scoop at least. i assume you have that.