Modes Elite Dangerous PvE vs PvP and who needs a Solo play if you had PvE server

[StiTch]

Why you swordplayers just cannot make big agreement.

Because I was sold swordfighting classes, I paid for swordfighting classes, and won't give them up to shovel snow because a few locals are scared of sharp objects. In the same way you don't care about PvP, I don't care about whether you like that it exists or not. I was sold a game that includes it to the point of advertising the ability to just hunt other CMDRs, and so I did not come here to shovel snow.

Now what I actually want is some in-game continuity and consequence; for somewhere in the game to be the ability to make a different based on audacity rather than collective ability to grind BGS changes. That doesn't even exclusively relate to PvP. But as your sole view on the topic is "I don't like PvP and wish they would go play in the corner because gr1efors...no, I don't want to hear reason, I said gr1ef0rs!!!", and said view is as redundant as it gets, I won't waste my time playing chess with a pigeon.

There's some inflatable Mobius branded pitchforks in the corner if you're running low btw

 

[Riverside]

Analogy is perfectly valid.
People want to do PP/BGS with PvP combat, wanting to use sword instead of shovel. But swords are useless for the task and they refuse to accept it. (in reality PP/BGS is crutch trying to push for change to force people to Open who do not want to be in open)
If PvP players were actually into PP/BGS, they would take the shovel in their hand and start working for their power/faction using the tools which non-PvP players are using. But in all threads we see just "but I want to pewpew not work"


Now, your analogy. Yes, advertisement said "you can fight with swords". It NOWHERE said that "swordfighting is all there is and everyone must come to you to get beaten with swords". That is the problem with swordwielders. They just do not get into their heads that others do not want to be beaten in the head with swords for amusement of someone ELSE. Nothing in the statement I read said "You must become beating target of swordplayer". In fact, I bought game based on "You can opt out of swordfighting and still do all the interesting stuff if you wish"


Reality is that there are lots and lots of games out there, and basically NOWHERE are the swordfolk well behaved bunch who play nice and polite with those who do not want to play with swords. You spoke of how ED has consequences for your deeds. That is visible here. Significant portion of PvP group did what it always does when permitted. Went into gankmode and "KOS all humans". And now they complain because their actions, or inactions for those PvP folk who are not into ganking but are not going extra lightyears to find and kill all gankers, they are facing consequences.

Idea that "provide us with enough targets and we behave" is not going to work. There just isn't a game out there where non-insignificant portion of PvP people would not go for cheap kills anytime they can.


To carry on with our analogues and snowshoveling. People who like shoveling snow have formed their own groups which are dedicated ONLY to shoveling snow. Swords are banned and anyone wielding one is permanently kicked out.
Why you swordplayers just cannot make big agreement "Swordfighting between us swordfighters, no rules etc on xxxx in system Whatever"? Nobody is denying you the swordfighting you appear to desire. Go forth, fight one another. Beat one another until only One remains. Or whatever.

Just chipping in to agree generally with a lot of this.

Too many griefers spoil the broth. But not enough also spoils it. When I'm in the bubble I'll try to out-think the griefer rather than just go head to head & out-gun them, because that's boring. Allow more ways for players to out-manoeuvre a gank & the griefer ceases to be a problem, and becomes a fun challenge. The foolish suffer & hopefully learn, the wily have fun on both sides. Similarly, the griefer can learn that if people don't want to play with them, there is nothing they can do to force them, so they need to be a little more fun to be around if they want more players to instance with them.

 

[Riverside]

Because I was sold swordfighting classes, I paid for swordfighting classes, and won't give them up to shovel snow because a few locals are scared of sharp objects. In the same way you don't care about PvP, I don't care about whether you like that it exists or not. I was sold a game that includes it to the point of advertising the ability to just hunt other CMDRs, and so I did not come here to shovel snow.

Now what I actually want is some in-game continuity and consequence; for somewhere in the game to be the ability to make a different based on audacity rather than collective ability to grind BGS changes. That doesn't even exclusively relate to PvP. But as your sole view on the topic is "I don't like PvP and wish they would go play in the corner because gr1efors...no, I don't want to hear reason, I said gr1ef0rs!!!", and said view is as redundant as it gets, I won't waste my time playing chess with a pigeon.

There's some inflatable Mobius branded pitchforks in the corner if you're running low btw

If your desired gameplay requires other players, you need to be able to get along with them. FDev are under no obligation to provide you with random players to engage.

If you organise a soccer match & hire the field, but no-one else shows up, is that the field's fault?

 

[StiTch]

If your desired gameplay requires other players, you need to be able to get along with them. FDev are under no obligation to provide you with random players to engage.

So you took a paragraph where I explicitly say the following: "Now what I actually want is some in-game continuity and consequence; for somewhere in the game to be the ability to make a different based on audacity rather than collective ability to grind BGS changes. That doesn't even exclusively relate to PvP"

...and all you took away from that is that I can't get along with other players and seem to think I lack the other players to play with.

*shrugs* there's only so much one can say mate. Some players are so desperately terrified of confrontation that they have nothing better to do than sit on a forum flinging dung at them nasty grief0rs and patting each other on the back. I can't help you with that.

Line on the left, one pitchfork each...

 

[Riverside]

So you took a paragraph where I explicitly say the following: "Now what I actually want is some in-game continuity and consequence; for somewhere in the game to be the ability to make a different based on audacity rather than collective ability to grind BGS changes. That doesn't even exclusively relate to PvP"

...and all you took away from that is that I can't get along with other players and seem to think I lack the other players to play with.

*shrugs* there's only so much one can say mate. Some players are so desperately terrified of confrontation that they have nothing better to do than sit on a forum flinging crap at them nasty grief0rs and patting each other on the back. I can't help you with that.

Line on the left, one pitchfork each...

Look at it this way, if there was only solo as it is now, with a connected bgs there would still be complaints of griefing.

 

[kinglemo2000]

Because I was sold swordfighting classes, I paid for swordfighting classes, and won't give them up to shovel snow because a few locals are scared of sharp objects. In the same way you don't care about PvP, I don't care about whether you like that it exists or not. I was sold a game that includes it to the point of advertising the ability to just hunt other CMDRs, and so I did not come here to shovel snow.

Now what I actually want is some in-game continuity and consequence; for somewhere in the game to be the ability to make a different based on audacity rather than collective ability to grind BGS changes. That doesn't even exclusively relate to PvP. But as your sole view on the topic is "I don't like PvP and wish they would go play in the corner because gr1efors...no, I don't want to hear reason, I said gr1ef0rs!!!", and said view is as redundant as it gets, I won't waste my time playing chess with a pigeon.

There's some inflatable Mobius branded pitchforks in the corner if you're running low btw

I agree you were sold a sword and have trained with a sword and want to use it but you have to find other sword users to do so, the problem is the guys and gals that have brought the shovels find there are certain sword owners that would like to make their shovel play less interactive in their chosen shovel mode and have this perceived idea that perhaps the shovel is mightier than the sword and is a danger to them

 

[StiTch]

Look at it this way, if there was only solo as it is now, with a connected bgs there would still be complaints of griefing.

*scratches head* I've already seen complaints of NPC griefing actually, but isn't that kind of proving my point that we can't engage in reasonable discourse for all the hysteria?

Honestly, the only people that ever suffer for the Open/Solo forum tennis games are the roleplaying PvPers; the pirates, the PvP bounty hunters and the like.

I agree you have were sold a sword and trained with a sword and want to use it but you have to find other sword users to do so, the problem is the guys and gals that have brought the shovels find there are certain sword owners that would like to make their shovel play less interactive in their chosen shovel mode and have this perceived idea that perhaps the shovel is mightier than the sword and is a danger to them

What's up with needing analogies to talk? Normally analogies clarify something or make something easier to understand; now we're just complicating the discussion by translating it into some weird medieval snow ploughing tale.

There are multiplayer players and solo players, and ED caters to neither. It would be nice to have some improvements for both player groups (I'd personally like to see offline solo back still were it feasible), but apparently forumites still act like we're in the stone age and get indignant when they hear someone suggesting "the other team" gets something nice.

 

[Tiwaz]

Because I was sold swordfighting classes, I paid for swordfighting classes, and won't give them up to shovel snow because a few locals are scared of sharp objects. In the same way you don't care about PvP, I don't care about whether you like that it exists or not. I was sold a game that includes it to the point of advertising the ability to just hunt other CMDRs, and so I did not come here to shovel snow.

Who is stopping you from hunting commanders? Go ahead, open is literally open for you. You can hunt anyone who is there. I bought game where I opt out of swordplay because I have over experience found it to be one of the most unsatisfying and stupid things in games like this. Been there, done that. Have enought t-shirts and it has no charm.

And in case you missed it, I suggested that you organize your own swordfighting classes. Go ahead, make yourself happy with fellow swordplayers.

Now what I actually want is some in-game continuity and consequence; for somewhere in the game to be the ability to make a different based on audacity rather than collective ability to grind BGS changes. That doesn't even exclusively relate to PvP. But as your sole view on the topic is "I don't like PvP and wish they would go play in the corner because gr1efors...no, I don't want to hear reason, I said gr1ef0rs!!!", and said view is as redundant as it gets, I won't waste my time playing chess with a pigeon.

Have you ever noticed that nobody who is not interested in PvP has ever said PvP should be removed from game totally?
And second of all, this "audacity" you speak of... NONE OF THE GAME MECHANISMS YOU WANT TO CHANGE ARE SOMEHOW PVP BASED!
NONE. No matter how "audacious" swordwielder you are it will not create a DAMN DIFFERENCE in PP/BGS. They are affected with PvE activity. Single decent PvE act counts as much or more as total PvP massmurder in PP. In BGS PvP is even more worthless. Those things were not made to be affected by PvE and not PvP.

You talk about playing chess with pigeons but fail to grasp that entire argument of you swordwielders is that you don't want to play the game as it works but force others to be your targets because "I was sold swordfighting" and then ignoring fact that others were sold option to NOT participate in that.



And again, go have your swordfights. Who is stopping you? Nobody. And neither is anyone required to provide you targets.
If you cannot find targets, then don't blame others for that problem but look into mirror and ask why people do not want to play with swordfight enthusiasts.

 

[Riverside]

*scratches head* I've already seen complaints of NPC griefing actually, but isn't that kind of proving my point that we can't engage in reasonable discourse for all the hysteria?

Honestly, the only people that ever suffer for the Open/Solo forum tennis games are the roleplaying PvPers; the pirates, the PvP bounty hunters and the like.

No, there is another kind, the kind that are unable to accept that some people just don't want to play with them. And there are players that want them to suffer by reminding them that they cannot be directly attacked.

 

[kinglemo2000]

*scratches head* I've already seen complaints of NPC griefing actually, but isn't that kind of proving my point that we can't engage in reasonable discourse for all the hysteria?

Honestly, the only people that ever suffer for the Open/Solo forum tennis games are the roleplaying PvPers; the pirates, the PvP bounty hunters and the like.



What's up with needing analogies to talk? Normally analogies clarify something or make something easier to understand; now we're just complicating the discussion by translating it into some weird medieval snow ploughing tale.

There are multiplayer players and solo players, and ED caters to neither. It would be nice to have some improvements for both player groups (I'd personally like to see offline solo back still were it feasible), but apparently forumites still act like we're in the stone age and get indignant when they hear someone suggesting "the other team" gets something nice.

Because you were talking about swords and shovels and it felt good to go with the flow

 

[StiTch]

Who is stopping you from hunting commanders? Go ahead, open is literally open for you. You can hunt anyone who is there. I bought game where I opt out of swordplay because I have over experience found it to be one of the most unsatisfying and stupid things in games like this. Been there, done that. Have enought t-shirts and it has no charm.

And in case you missed it, I suggested that you organize your own swordfighting classes. Go ahead, make yourself happy with fellow swordplayers.



Have you ever noticed that nobody who is not interested in PvP has ever said PvP should be removed from game totally?
And second of all, this "audacity" you speak of... NONE OF THE GAME MECHANISMS YOU WANT TO CHANGE ARE SOMEHOW PVP BASED!
NONE. No matter how "audacious" swordwielder you are it will not create a DAMN DIFFERENCE in PP/BGS. They are affected with PvE activity. Single decent PvE act counts as much or more as total PvP massmurder in PP. In BGS PvP is even more worthless. Those things were not made to be affected by PvE and not PvP.

You talk about playing chess with pigeons but fail to grasp that entire argument of you swordwielders is that you don't want to play the game as it works but force others to be your targets because "I was sold swordfighting" and then ignoring fact that others were sold option to NOT participate in that.



And again, go have your swordfights. Who is stopping you? Nobody. And neither is anyone required to provide you targets.
If you cannot find targets, then don't blame others for that problem but look into mirror and ask why people do not want to play with swordfight enthusiasts.

That is....a lot of incoherent noise. Calm down; no-one is trying to take your candy.

In effect you aren't happy with PvPers having content, because griefors exist. It's okay, many people here are stuck at that level of incomprehension Just as long as you're aware that the longer you shake your pitchfork at any PvP content, the longer you encourage that murder. If there's no content to do...then frankly yes, players are going to turn other players into content.

No, there is another kind, the kind that are unable to accept that some people just don't want to play with them. And there are players that want them to suffer by reminding them that they cannot be directly attacked.

I sense you are trying to award yourself a sense of achievement here, so...go team?

Because you were talking about swords and shovels and it felt good to go with the flow

The swords and shovels thing was unnecessary, but straight talking is beyond the grasp of many around these 'ere parts.

 

[Robert Maynard]

.... and get indignant when they hear someone suggesting "the other team" gets something nice.

.... usually because the proposal for "something nice" involves removing access to existing bought and paid for content from players who eschew direct PvP.

 

[StiTch]

.... usually because the proposal for "something nice" involves removing access to existing bought and paid for content from players who eschew direct PvP.

There have been plenty of suggestions that wouldn't affect pg/solo at all, or offers an equal alternative.

Simple fact is that the same solution cannot be applied to all players and keep them happy.

 

[Tiwaz]

That is....a lot of incoherent noise. Calm down; no-one is trying to take your candy.{Quote]

Actually, yes that is the common argument from PvP-team. "We are not happy, take from others xxxx so they have to come to Open."

In effect you aren't happy with PvPers having content, because griefors exist. It's okay, many people here are stuck at that level of incomprehension Just as long as you're aware that the longer you shake your pitchfork at any PvP content, the longer you encourage that murder. If there's no content to do...then frankly yes, players are going to turn other players into content.

I don't really give a damn about PvP as long as it does not negatively affect ME. You see, issue is that for PvP crowd the content they want is ME being availabe to be blown up at moment's notice.
Murder will never go away, you cannot throw PvE players at PvP players and eventually see them "sated" and all is well. But that is the crux here when PvP players try to blame people not interested in PvP for their lack of content.

That idea of "feeding" wolves has been attempted in the past. Result have been games that have either gone bankrupt or had to do dramatic changes to remove PvP in some way and measure because murderers keep on murdering and driving other players out until eventually game has burned it's potential customerbase and is left with murderers and handful of folks who don't mind interacting with them.

I would be more than happy to see PvE open made on the side of current PvP open.
PvP people on other hand oppose idea because they cannot "oppose" PvE activity with PvP and in their view PvE activity should be opposed with PvP. And they are frustrated because they cannot.
Swords and shovels is perfect analogy for that.

I would not be against more PvP activity for PvP group, but that too needs to be 100% voluntary and built around ONLY PvP. Would that satisfy you?
Why only PvP... Because else we see PvE people participate in it, not within open because that is what we were sold (universe we can affect without seeing any pvp players if we so choose), and then PvP people again complain.

 

[Robert Maynard]

There have been plenty of suggestions that wouldn't affect pg/solo at all, or offers an equal alternative.

Well, there was one yesterday regarding PvP bonds for PowerPlay....

Simple fact is that the same solution cannot be applied to all players and keep them happy.

Any solution is very unlikely to keep all of the players happy - which is why change would, in my opinion, be a gamble - as Frontier know for a fact that every single player that bought the game did so with particular core features in place (even if some players didn't know they were).

 

[StiTch]

Actually, yes that is the common argument from PvP-team. "We are not happy, take from others xxxx so they have to come to Open."


I don't really give a damn about PvP as long as it does not negatively affect ME. You see, issue is that for PvP crowd the content they want is ME being availabe to be blown up at moment's notice.
Murder will never go away, you cannot throw PvE players at PvP players and eventually see them "sated" and all is well. But that is the crux here when PvP players try to blame people not interested in PvP for their lack of content.

That idea of "feeding" wolves has been attempted in the past. Result have been games that have either gone bankrupt or had to do dramatic changes to remove PvP in some way and measure because murderers keep on murdering and driving other players out until eventually game has burned it's potential customerbase and is left with murderers and handful of folks who don't mind interacting with them.

I would be more than happy to see PvE open made on the side of current PvP open.
PvP people on other hand oppose idea because they cannot "oppose" PvE activity with PvP and in their view PvE activity should be opposed with PvP. And they are frustrated because they cannot.
Swords and shovels is perfect analogy for that.

I would not be against more PvP activity for PvP group, but that too needs to be 100% voluntary and built around ONLY PvP. Would that satisfy you?
Why only PvP... Because else we see PvE people participate in it, not within open because that is what we were sold (universe we can affect without seeing any pvp players if we so choose), and then PvP people again complain.

Come back when you have something more coherent to say than "I don't like PvP".

I get it, you don't like it. I could not care less

Well, there was one yesterday regarding PvP bonds for PowerPlay....

Any solution is very unlikely to keep all of the players happy - which is why change would, in my opinion, be a gamble - as Frontier know for a fact that every single player that bought the game did so with particular core features in place (even if some players didn't know they were).

So you understand positive change could be made including relevant examples, but don't want to try and improve the game because change.

I don't understand how we can even think about dismissing change to retain core features that almost everyone has a complaint about; we are literally about to hit an entire season dedicated to restructuring underperforming core features. Not to mention that we're in a 10 year dev plan. Positive change is meant to happen - it's called development.

 

[Jockey79]

I don't understand how we can even think about dismissing change to retain core features that almost everyone has a complaint about;

Almost everyone?

And where has that come from? Because I've not seen those numbers, and I doubt Frontier have either.
These gross misleading comments hurts your argument, next you'll claim 273 is "lots".

Not to mention that we're in a 10 year dev plan. Positive change is meant to happen - it's called development.

10 year plan is a myth, Frontier covered this in a live stream.
They have a plan, but FDev never said 10 years, forum users did for some odd reason.

And "Positive change" doesn't mean pew pew taking over or killing off core features.
Assuming it does will only upset you further when new features come out that work well with the mode system.

 

[Robert Maynard]

So you understand positive change could be made including relevant examples, but don't want to try and improve the game because change.

If you read that proposal you see that I was not actually opposed to it - far from it.

I don't understand how we can even think about dismissing change to retain core features that almost everyone has a complaint about; we are literally about to hit an entire season dedicated to restructuring underperforming core features. Not to mention that we're in a 10 year dev plan. Positive change is meant to happen - it's called development.

Which core features? Who are the "almost everyone"? Are they all of the same opinion?

Indeed - positive change is meant to happen - I expect that Frontier will strive to offer changes that will be seen as positive by as much of the player-base as possible.

 

[StiTch]

Almost everyone?

And where has that come from? Because I've not seen those numbers, and I doubt Frontier have either.
These gross misleading comments hurts your argument, next you'll claim 273 is "lots".

We're about to use an entire season to fix core features. That didn't happen because 10 people had a bit of a problem.

But yeah, I'm literally watching people suggest the game shouldn't be improved so they can dismiss the idea of improving PvP at the same time. That...pretty much sums up this forum. Ah well, back to making our own content I'll leave you folks to continue talking nonsense and slapping each others backs.

 

[UmbraRex]

8<snip>8
And again, go have your swordfights. Who is stopping you? Nobody. And neither is anyone required to provide you targets.
If you cannot find targets, then don't blame others for that problem but look into mirror and ask why people do not want to play with swordfight enthusiasts.

Stop making sense. I can't currently give you any more rep, so virtual +1