Elite: Harmless - Karma System aka "be the Tamagotchi" - FRESH SALT, MINED RIGHT HERE

[xondk]

You cannot base anything on careers or roles. People, myself included, slip seamlessly between them.

Sure you can? because that is the whole point, your actions have consequences, just now, when this system isn't in, it isn't personal ones, but might eventually be?

That said as it is described by devs, it likely won't do much of this. But shouldn't actions have consequences? an on the flipside why should there only be consequences for victims?

 

[GMANTOR]

You cannot base anything on careers or roles. People, myself included, slip seamlessly between them. Those points of views should all be seen at the same time. What professional point of view would you assign to PvP'ers, just looking for a good fight? What point of view do you assign to a guy who drops off Data, but takes that one Wetworks job in the Anarchy system nearby? Any system that can recognize your intended role would absolutely need to digest your in-game history, for good and ill. Any system that required a locked in choice of occupation would break down the ability for the player to just do something. So, either way you find a failure point trying to assign hard and fast roles on players.

Fair enough and no system is going to please everyone (possibly why nothing has been done until now). My understanding of the karma system means that you could do the occasional bad thing without taking too much of a hit to your reputation. I would like to think as well that a karma system would be able to shift back towards good over time. It should take a concerted effort to get a bad reputation so the occasional bad thing doesn't really affect you. Further to this you mentioned two PvP'ers who just want to have a fight to the (near?) death and if both parties had the "crime & punishment" button turned off then there is no effect to your reputation (obviously if a trader had this toggled off then a pirate would not get a reputation hit etc. but the trader would also not be protected by anyone so likely most will have it turned on). This is a complex issue but whether you want to be casually bad or make a career out of it there should be a way to make it happen.

 

[Zambrick]

You cannot base anything on careers or roles. People, myself included, slip seamlessly between them. Those points of views should all be seen at the same time. What professional point of view would you assign to PvP'ers, just looking for a good fight? What point of view do you assign to a guy who drops off Data, but takes that one Wetworks job in the Anarchy system nearby? Any system that can recognize your intended role would absolutely need to digest your in-game history, for good and ill. Any system that required a locked in choice of occupation would break down the ability for the player to just do something. So, either way you find a failure point trying to assign hard and fast roles on players.

Accept they have already assigned roles. They have done this by providing the ships different tools for different jobs. This game has every single traditional role that your bog standard MMO would have. Everything from Healers, Tanks, and DPS. They also have 3 primary Elite Ranked Achievements/prowess levels to attain. Pretty much standard fair for your classic MMO.


That is why the Karma scale can slide into the positive and into the negative. That way you can RP a relatively scummy Pirate type and have fun doing so. Especially if you are not murder crazy. In fact your karma should not be anywhere the levels that would require a harsh punishment. Start killing dozens of commanders for the lolz and all of the sudden you cant buy you ship back anymore. Simple as that.

The people who are complaining and have utter hate for the idea of a Karma system are going to reap the most benefit. They will have a legitimized play style that has rules similar the ones everyone else has been following since day one. It will allow them the notoriety they wish to attain and have a measurable metric to use to prove that notoriety. It can open up mission opportunities and types based upon your karmic level. Add a most needed level of complexity to the style, and might start to curb the animosity that the vast majority of this games community has for them. Not to mention that it will bring a much needed injection of immersion and believeability to this game universe. I want to play a science fiction game, not a game based off the life and times of the Happy Tree Friends and Friends.

 

[DefiledDragon]

Hello Commander Brian of Ardagh!

Yes, as I've said in other posts, the basic concept of a karma system is to follow trends and identify behaviours and intent. If you had this then there's lots of ways of using it to deliver information as well as more direct consequences.

So it might be possible to have colour or image of a signature to quickly show information about a player's status, assuming we could ensure legibility (the sensor space is already reasonably loaded as far as information delivery).

You could have people with low karma appear as red hollow squares so people can take steps to avoid them, or have some other mechanism whereby other players can tell immediately when they're dealing with somebody with low karma. Eve has a similar system and it works well.

 

[-Denali-]

You could sort of: Make Open PvE only, unless you tick a box saying "enable PvP", which is can only be turned on (or left off). Selecting this would force the CMDR into ironman mode.
They can now attack enemy PvP CMDRs freely.
They can also attack PvE CMDRs, but that flags them to be shot back by anyone (ie those without PvP enabled).

When they die their game is reset (back to sidewinder and 1000cr).

Feel free to swap ships, do whatever, but this would stop suicidewinding to wipe bounties. Give risk to activities etc.

Would that make PvP dangerous enough? [big grin]

Again, there is no mechanism in game which you can flip to make PVP impossible. You'd have to disable weapon damage from player to player and collision damage from player to player. That's just a massive leap towards an arcade shooter universe and would require a massive rewrite of game code. May as well play STO if you want PVE only.

 

[nanite2000]

You could have people with low karma appear as red hollow squares so people can take steps to avoid them, or have some other mechanism whereby other players can tell immediately when they're dealing with somebody with low karma. Eve has a similar system and it works well.

I like this idea. Some indicator on your scanner that differentiates commanders with a bad reputation would be a good early warning. Players can then choose their appropriate response (confront, avoid, or ignore).

 

[jasonbarron]

I like this idea. Some indicator on your scanner that differentiates commanders with a bad reputation would be a good early warning. Players can then choose their appropriate response (confront, avoid, or ignore).

These CMDR's are already clearly identified, both in terms of loadout as well as the glowing red "Wanted" tag.

 

[insanephoton]

Did Sandro really suggest something akin to a karma chameleon?

 

[spatula]

For sure then, I think we can safely say that hiding Commander signatures could have a chilling effect on the most opportunistic hunter. But then it runs into conflict with another issue: one of the reasons we haven't removed this feature is precisely because many Commanders *want* to find each other - and no necessarily to attack either. So we perhaps end up in a situation where we punish everyone for the misdeeds of a few.

When I see those hollow dots in a system I get excite/scare at the same time... ooh what's going on HERE?!?!? ... love that the way it is to be honest.

But let me throw this idea out there for Karma and balancing out the antagonist role.

Pirate Bases:
- If you slide into negative karma ("Notoriety") too far, you can eventually only dock at "pirate bases" (would need to add/re-jig pirate bases and add a filter/search function to the galmap to find them!)
- Maybe the first time you hit negative karma, a nearby pirate base messages the player, offering to help them out, for a price... or treat them like Engineers (or anti-engineers), with a scattering of known pirate bases that lead to unlocking others. Little Skulls hovering above the stars like those little yellow engineers icons. Instead of an "Engineers" button in your menu, make it "Galactic Yellow Pages" and have Engineers, Pirates, Scientists, etc.

Buying Anonymity to counter "Notoriety":
- Pirate bases allow you to buy "anonymity" for a time period, like 10 mins for 100k
- while anonymous, you appear like an NPC dot, but every 5 seconds or so it "blips" into a hollow dot for a moment - so players might initially think you're an NPC, but there's a "tell"
- OR, have there be a choice of anonymity - pay one price to hide your wanted bounties (ie. paint the van, change the plates, still look like a player in Supercruise), pay a different price to hide your player signature for X mins and be like an NPC on radar (with a "tell"), or buy both and rock it ninja style. Maybe a commander name disguise? A ship class swapper?
- If this, then anyone should be able to buy "pilot signature wipers" at pirate bases (ie. fake transponders, think star wars), so bounty hunters might better get the drop on criminals too, hiding near pirate bases, disguised as NPCs (or different ship classes) looking for wanted criminals trying to hide their shame. Traders might risk dropping by a pirate base to disguise as an NPC on a hot route, but have to risk going to a pirate hotspot to get it.
- while anonymous, can either use the time to grind back to positive karma, pay off your bounties or use it to sneak attack more people
- Once you commit a crime, or get scanned with a KWS, you lose the anonymity no matter how much time you had left

What would be the "con" of high notoriety?:
- Allow ALL players to see criminals on the galaxy map (like you see friends, but with a filter) within a certain bounty range based on ranks/distance and "notoriety"
- Think of it like, once you get to a certain notoriety, you appear on a "global enemies" list that all players connect with, but only activate visibility based on in-game factors like distance/rank/karma levels.
- Having a small bounty might make you visible from 20ly, but a big one, maybe 200ly
- So I land in a system and then it sends out a ping within X light years looking for nearby players of ill repute. You're a murder just 12ly away, so my computer says "Nearby Criminal Detected" and now I know which system you're in.
- Top 100 bounties show to everyone regardless of rank... everyone can track the most vile scum of the universe to their last known system
- Now, Harry Potter can still pull of his shenanigans, but needs to head to a pirate base to buy some anonymity or risk being hunted by everyone, who can see him run to a pirate base before he blips out.
- Maybe even add a new module that pirates could buy allowing them to know if they are visible to others (have I been pinged and identified by a player a system over?)... call it the "Tracebuster" (and then a module for bounty hunters called the "Tracebusterbuster" which masks your ping to a Tracebuster)

But how do I get good karma then?
- And on the other end, let's say that the base positive karma comes from non-violent player interaction - being in multicrew as a crew mate accrues a slow increase of positive karma, up to a threshold not far above neutral karma. You can restore your negative karma to neutral just by serving on other's vessels as a crew mates and not being a weirdo. BAM, multicrew becomes a device for pirates trying to go clean and restore their honour by serving their fellow pirates. Or ARE they? Does YOUR crewmate have bad karma... maybe the Captain of the ship should see all incoming karma and chose to question his crewmates before allowing them to continue aboard!
- After that threshold is hit, you need to rely on other methods to improve your karma, which maybe have to come from voluntary player interactions...
- consider: adding a "rate this player" to the rebuy screen... so someone kills you, you can dish out max negative karma to griefers, or CHOSE to honour your opponent with positive karma... but you can only rate the same player once a week to avoid exploits and karma farms. Think of it like an uber driver rating
- But more importantly, Add this to the multicrew end-screen as well (rate my captain), and as an option in comms (like upvoting a player for their funny comms chatter).. register "ratemyasp.com" as well, come to think...

Buy why I want good karma anyway? Pirating sounds cool!
- Top 100 positively ranked players will gain the ability to send "galactic distress beacons" that can be seen by all players of positive karma, to request help from strangers in times of need, or just summon the curious for fun
- Anyone on the positive karma side might be able to get that same beacon, but your karma level determines it's visible distance to other players, so you're well liked and can be seen from 100ly or something

TL;DR! I'm illiterate!
- Notorious players get pirate bases and people can buy time-based anonymity there, with the most wanted being punished by being visible to more and more (forcing them to buy anonymity, making life expensive)
- Paragon players get distress beacons that can summon friendly strangers (oh my) from a distance, with the top player beacons being like the warning fires of Amon Din and Gondor that stretches to Rohan.
- Negative karma is gotten from in-game actions (ie. murder) and player ratings
- Positive karma is gotten by in-game actions to a certain point (ie. multicrew), but then can only grow beyond by player interactions (good ratings, upvotes in chat)
- Can't max out your karma in solo mode, so get into open and start making friends!

I don't really know if that's all possible, or works with what you guys are thinking, but I think it's important not to just have karma there to punish "antagonistic players". Just throwing these ideas out there in full wall-of-text mode.

 

[jasonbarron]

Did Sandro really suggest something akin to a karma chameleon?

That'll do insanephoton, that'll do.

 

[Bryan K]

These CMDR's are already clearly identified, both in terms of loadout as well as the glowing red "Wanted" tag.

That doesn't help if they're behind me in supercruise. Are they following the same route to the starport or are they lining up for an interdiction?

 

[jasonbarron]

That doesn't help if they're behind me in supercruise. Are they following the same route to the starport or are they lining up for an interdiction?

Well, there's always turning around and scanning them. Also, the tried and true method of assuming that if they exist, they have hostile intent and behave accordingly.

 

[-Denali-]

Well, there's always turning around and scanning them. Also, the tried and true method of assuming that if they exist, they have hostile intent and behave accordingly.

That's my approach too. 2 years and haven't died to a player in game yet! Just takes a healthy dose of uncivilized mistrust of your fellow man.

 

[jasonbarron]

That's my approach too. 2 years and haven't died to a player in game yet! Just takes a healthy dose of uncivilized mistrust of your fellow man.

Agreed. Death is so easily avoidable in this game that a player almost has to decide that they want to see the rebuy screen to incur a loss. A healthy dose of paranoia and a little work on honing ye old situational awareness and presto; gank proof. No special rules needed.

 

[lenna]

Competitive PvPers wold just leave.

As ED is not really a competitive PvP type game that is probably well over due anyway.

Truly competitive PvP gameplay is only really supported by CQC mode, and I would not expect that to be adversely affected by any changes to how PvP is controlled in main environment.

 

[[VR] Merkir]

Here's a crazy idea... FDev could allow TWO commanders per ED account. The second commander would cost, say $20. This would allow people like myself to continue with their current commander (BGS, etc.) but start a brand new commander under the new comprehensive Karma/Notoriety/C&P&R system where I can roleplay as an Outlaw. I bet plenty of players would be interested in this.

Upsides:
Potentially large new revenue stream for FDev (longevity of the game)
Players get a new commander to roleplay as they wish, especially as Outlaws/Criminals
Plenty more wanted commanders therefore far more PvP opportunities in Open (for those that like that)
Traders/explorers/non-PvPers can experience Open much more safely due to the introduction of the new karma/C&P&R systems which will make Outlaws think twice before killing them, especially in High Secs.

 

[Zambrick]

Again, there is no mechanism in game which you can flip to make PVP impossible. You'd have to disable weapon damage from player to player and collision damage from player to player. That's just a massive leap towards an arcade shooter universe and would require a massive rewrite of game code. May as well play STO if you want PVE only.

This games original design intention was PVE single player mode only. Multiplayer got tacked on.

 

[Dialectic]

This probably isn't constructive to the topic, but what's the problem with Open as is? Aren't there 400 BILLION stars? Or at least planets? With 200,000 active members, give or take? Even if everyone that is active plays on Open, you won't run into too many other players except in presumably a few well-traveled systems wherein the local security could be beefed up.

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This games original design intention was PVE single player mode only. Multiplayer got tacked on.

I just joined. Never would have purchased this game as a single-player only experience. My 2 cents.......

 

[Zambrick]

This probably isn't constructive to the topic, but what's the problem with Open as is? Aren't there 400 BILLION stars? Or at least planets? With 200,000 active members, give or take? Even if everyone that is active plays on Open, you won't run into too many other players except in presumably a few well-traveled systems wherein the local security could be beefed up.

Nothing else is in the Galaxy. Humans as a species is a few hundred if not thousands of years away from just "stumbling" across something naturally in Elite Dangerous. Statistically speaking we would actually be living in space before we find anything in ED. We will have to be given clues or we wont find anything. There are no mechanisms for discovery. Hence the reason why everything is centered around inhabited systems.

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This probably isn't constructive to the topic, but what's the problem with Open as is? Aren't there 400 BILLION stars? Or at least planets? With 200,000 active members, give or take? Even if everyone that is active plays on Open, you won't run into too many other players except in presumably a few well-traveled systems wherein the local security could be beefed up.

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I just joined. Never would have purchased this game as a single-player only experience. My 2 cents.......

When everyone heard multiplayer there was a big groan. Then after a bit when ideas of wings were being introduced and being able to hunt NPCs with your friends, it became a popular idea. More to the point PVP was not this games primary focus. Nobody thought it would be in the game nor was it needed. However it launched that way and they are just now possibly, maybe, hopefully, going to turn this game into a Science Fiction Space flight game. The Grand Theft Spaceship no consequences murder sim game they created is wearing thin. Especially if you enjoy Multiplayer or Open or Science fiction for that mater.


These people drove over 40k players into a Private player group and the game is desolate in open in comparison to what it once was.

 

[Ca$hback]

I just hate the word "Karma" and how it's used colloquially along with "organic" vegetables (as opposed to silicon based?) and people who say they're "OCD" because they feel bad when that they don't get to nitpick to their heart's content.
Lazy terminology irritates me to no end. People who say "actually" (the new "literally"), oblivious to how condescending it sounds...

I'm all for draconian C&P but I hope they call it alignment or something. Karma is like a snobby, whiny, rich kid telling on you for not sharing your candy even though you weren't obligated then going "nya-nya". The kid you always wanted to punch in the nose growing up.

If they call it Karma I might go full griefer out of spite.